Is this a safe space for intelligent conversation?
- Thread starter deivejek2|9
- Start date
Piffle don't be telling @Dave; he has charm, it will go to his head and he will believe it....
Edit: *sigh* Yes we should stay on topic. Apologies again. I am also feeling like this thread has run it course. I would hope that we can reach a point where there isn't the need to feel that everything has to be so formal otherwise I would rejoin the INTJ forum.
Edit: *sigh* Yes we should stay on topic. Apologies again. I am also feeling like this thread has run it course. I would hope that we can reach a point where there isn't the need to feel that everything has to be so formal otherwise I would rejoin the INTJ forum.
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Matching tie and handkerchief
I think that all right thinking members of this forum are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent members of this forum are fed up with with being told that they're sick and tired, I'm certainly not. And I am sick and tired of being told that I am!
I think that all right thinking members of this forum are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent members of this forum are fed up with with being told that they're sick and tired, I'm certainly not. And I am sick and tired of being told that I am!
Simple answer NO. The internet is shit for anything above 1st year undergraduate, the rest is psuedo-interlect, to get any information of substance is near impossible in a free arena (this includes conversation as anyone with a furthered knowledge talks it out load with peers). Serious intellectual conversation is organised and has some sort of proper sorting of information. The forum format is 2000 years old and thus good to start debate but has no real application beyond citation as its the same information you would get from any other room of strangers. I like to use forums as secondary research on certain subjects or for fun but never to develop anything.
I don't know how a forum is not a safe spot for conversation. It isn't like in real life where you can get bitch slapped for disagreeing with someone. You can easily ignore people who are being jackasses online and you can focus the conversation with people who genuinely have something to contribute. The question isn't whether or not a forum is safe but whether or not you can choose to focus your discussion without getting distracted by idiots. If you are uber sensitive, then yeah, you aren't going to have much luck having intelligent discussion because you will probably give more attention to the anonymous people you are talking to than they probably deserve.
If you are looking for truly intelligent discussion then hit up Google Scholar. You can't get much more structured than journal articles.
If you are looking for truly intelligent discussion then hit up Google Scholar. You can't get much more structured than journal articles.
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I agree, go to places with an actual agenda or physically find people to converse with. On experience with google scholar, its a bit out of date and thin as far as quality is concerned but easily better than the regular net. Online academic libraries are good to find people but require payment.
I think we gotta keep pumping life into this system with good threads.
If we do it right, this forum will flourish.
Whether we feel safe or not, let's continue this intelligent conversation.
Let your light shine, ppl.
If we do it right, this forum will flourish.
Whether we feel safe or not, let's continue this intelligent conversation.
Let your light shine, ppl.
As a public forum it has limitations
There is no way of knowing who will read your posts and as 'one man's meat is another man's poison' what might be an interesting or helpful post for someone might be upsetting or offensive for someone else
Also different people use the forum for different reasons
Traditionally a forum is a place for discussion but online perhaps they perform other functions as well.
It does seem like some people use the forum to socialise, for emotional support or advice or just to relax
I've always enjoyed discussing what are arguably controversial subjects but i understand that some people might not want to think about some of these issues. On one hand there seems to be people who just want to have a laugh and unwind especially if they've had a tough day and on the other hand there are people who want to ask challenging questions of themselves and the world around them, test ideas (sometimes through debate) and just generally try and get to the core of what we are as humans and what we are doing here, in this world
Some people are trying to turn off whilst some people are trying to turn on; are these two sets of people able to inhabit the same space without friction?
Someone mentioned cycles of problems on the forum. Does that occur because the forum has a sort of identity crisis? Is the forum a safe place for discussion and debate or is it a place to soothe the aching mind (or heart?). Is it a place to challenge perceptions and try and get closer to the truth (whatever that is) or is it a support group?
The other potential problem is that the forum claims to be an INFJ forum, but it wasn't set up by an INFJ, to a large extent it isn't run by INFJ's and most of the commentary on the forum isn't by INFJ's.
From my perspective, it is important for INFJ's to try and live in accordance with their values. The system doesn't always make that easy (but that's another subject!). In order for an individual to align their actions with their values it requires them to first construct their own value system and then to figure out how they can order their life accordingly (that is an ongoing struggle for me).
That process is tough! It requires making sense of the world and trying to understand what is going on in the world and also what is going on internally. It means asking challenging questions and grappling with difficult answers.
Such a process often creates a certain amount of turmoil but can, if a person can transcend the barriers they identify, lead to personal growth....i strongly believe that
'Intelligent conversation' means grappling with these issues/subjects and recognising the effects they have on us and acknowledging why they affect us; from there it is possible to then overcome them or at least reconcile with them. Either way it requires emotional investment and a certain amount of turmoil. These processes seem to be part of the spiritual path.
So is the forum a place in which INFJ's can battle through this process in order to discover themselves and figure out how they can navigate through a world which may conflict with their personal values, or is it a place to tranquilise fears, calm anxious minds and forget about worries?
Are the two needs compatible?
I feel that i cannot explore some of the themes i want to for fear of causing upset to other forum members and for that reason I will not be posting anymore on the public forum. But at the same time i believe that the process of tackling difficult issues can be an important one in peoples growth (especially INFJ's) and it seems a shame to stifle the kind of searching for answers that some people on the forum want to do
Some people have said that it is not what is being said but how it is being said. I'm not sure about that. INFJ's generally are less bothered about these things and are more interested in WHAT is being said....they don't have to like or admire a person to learn something from them.
I also believe that even if a person making a point is the most humble person on the planet....if they say something that contradicts what another says, then there is always the risk that they will upset the other person and that that other person may then develop a dislike for them (let alone someone who presents in a more ego-centric way.....people may have different personas online)
I think the further someone strays into controversial areas the more likely it becomes that they will cause offense; the deeper they delve into issues, the closer to the bone it might be for some. On the other hand someone could spend their whole life sticking to neutral subjects such as the weather!
I came to the forum to learn about MBTI and have learnt lots from the people here. I know i have debated hard with many, but i have also positively repped those people as well. I don't bare any ill will towards anyone on the forum and want to distance myself from some of the nastiness that is going on on the forum at the moment.
To summarise:
There is no way of knowing who will read your posts and as 'one man's meat is another man's poison' what might be an interesting or helpful post for someone might be upsetting or offensive for someone else
Also different people use the forum for different reasons
Traditionally a forum is a place for discussion but online perhaps they perform other functions as well.
It does seem like some people use the forum to socialise, for emotional support or advice or just to relax
I've always enjoyed discussing what are arguably controversial subjects but i understand that some people might not want to think about some of these issues. On one hand there seems to be people who just want to have a laugh and unwind especially if they've had a tough day and on the other hand there are people who want to ask challenging questions of themselves and the world around them, test ideas (sometimes through debate) and just generally try and get to the core of what we are as humans and what we are doing here, in this world
Some people are trying to turn off whilst some people are trying to turn on; are these two sets of people able to inhabit the same space without friction?
Someone mentioned cycles of problems on the forum. Does that occur because the forum has a sort of identity crisis? Is the forum a safe place for discussion and debate or is it a place to soothe the aching mind (or heart?). Is it a place to challenge perceptions and try and get closer to the truth (whatever that is) or is it a support group?
The other potential problem is that the forum claims to be an INFJ forum, but it wasn't set up by an INFJ, to a large extent it isn't run by INFJ's and most of the commentary on the forum isn't by INFJ's.
From my perspective, it is important for INFJ's to try and live in accordance with their values. The system doesn't always make that easy (but that's another subject!). In order for an individual to align their actions with their values it requires them to first construct their own value system and then to figure out how they can order their life accordingly (that is an ongoing struggle for me).
That process is tough! It requires making sense of the world and trying to understand what is going on in the world and also what is going on internally. It means asking challenging questions and grappling with difficult answers.
Such a process often creates a certain amount of turmoil but can, if a person can transcend the barriers they identify, lead to personal growth....i strongly believe that
'Intelligent conversation' means grappling with these issues/subjects and recognising the effects they have on us and acknowledging why they affect us; from there it is possible to then overcome them or at least reconcile with them. Either way it requires emotional investment and a certain amount of turmoil. These processes seem to be part of the spiritual path.
So is the forum a place in which INFJ's can battle through this process in order to discover themselves and figure out how they can navigate through a world which may conflict with their personal values, or is it a place to tranquilise fears, calm anxious minds and forget about worries?
Are the two needs compatible?
I feel that i cannot explore some of the themes i want to for fear of causing upset to other forum members and for that reason I will not be posting anymore on the public forum. But at the same time i believe that the process of tackling difficult issues can be an important one in peoples growth (especially INFJ's) and it seems a shame to stifle the kind of searching for answers that some people on the forum want to do
Some people have said that it is not what is being said but how it is being said. I'm not sure about that. INFJ's generally are less bothered about these things and are more interested in WHAT is being said....they don't have to like or admire a person to learn something from them.
I also believe that even if a person making a point is the most humble person on the planet....if they say something that contradicts what another says, then there is always the risk that they will upset the other person and that that other person may then develop a dislike for them (let alone someone who presents in a more ego-centric way.....people may have different personas online)
I think the further someone strays into controversial areas the more likely it becomes that they will cause offense; the deeper they delve into issues, the closer to the bone it might be for some. On the other hand someone could spend their whole life sticking to neutral subjects such as the weather!
I came to the forum to learn about MBTI and have learnt lots from the people here. I know i have debated hard with many, but i have also positively repped those people as well. I don't bare any ill will towards anyone on the forum and want to distance myself from some of the nastiness that is going on on the forum at the moment.
To summarise:
- I think that discussion can have great value for people seeking answers, but at the same time it can cause distress for others
- I think the forum is torn between two contradictory needs of members; one is for escape from worries and the other is for engagement with difficult issues/subjects
- The forum can at best claim to have a higher percentage of INFJ's than the general populace, but is by no means, exclusively, an 'INFJ Forum'
- As Chamomile said the forum is 'safe' for discussion but it won't always be welcome! That said there are plenty of thought provoking posts made on this forum
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] I always loved your input on this forum. I hope you continue to check up on us in the future.
We either gotta work with this forum because it carries the INFJ label, or make another one.
Maybe we just need to get rid of these monkeys already...
I think so, if that were the only categorical break-down. I'm afraid it might go further than that though.
I think this forum does have an identity crisis. I think there is the facade (the name, the rules/policies) and then there is what actually happens here on the ground.
This section caused the most thought for me. It is the only section I didn't feel completely sure of my agreement with. I don't think this is as clean as it appears. I would say that personally it is very much how things are being said, rather than what is being said, but if what is being said is aggressive or psychologically manipulative, then I guess it could be argued that I am upset by the what as well.
I actually see this forum as more like four groups of posters (with many people overlapping into more than one group depending on day or mood). I see the silly, playful group that's here to unwind. I see the group that likes to debate current news or philosophical issues. I would primarily fall into a third group that is here to explore interpersonal/intrapersonal relationship dynamics. It could be called the emotional support group, but I think that's a more limited descriptor than the reasons I come here. Though I prefer by far to participate in and communicate with those in the third group, I have little to no problem co-existing with the first two groups. It is the fourth group that has caused me to express my current distress with the forum. My sense is that the fourth group doesn't really have it's own place. It participates in all three of the other groups. It turns play mean. It turns debate into no-holds-barred personal attacks. It turns emotional support into psychological beatings. I find being present with that group on this forum to be akin to living next door to a man who comes home every night and "unwinds" by beating the shit out of his wife. I can't tolerate being here in the presence of this element.
So if the question is about co-existence, then I think there's ample potential. If the question is actually about turning a blind eye to abuse, while putting up notes on the door that say "nothing to see here. we're just joking around" then I'm probably going to be moving and calling social services.
People have asked for calibration points. I have decided I'd like to offer myself up as sacrifice to this end. I am not fooled into thinking calibration points means anything other than "please step into the punching bag and wait while we warm up for your beating". All the same, I know there are some members here who I respect that have expressed fear that they are who is being talked about. I can't speak for anyone else's experience here. I only know where my lines are. I wish I felt I could offer more points of reference, but I only feel I can offer up examples that relate to me. I have certainly seen many more, but the times I've been a direct target have been few. If others want to step up and offer their calibration points, so be it.
I posted the following statement in my recent type me thread.
In response to this section of my post, [MENTION=3072]Royal[/MENTION] responded. I am paraphrasing my memory of their response because I reported it and it was deleted from my thread.
"It's because you're old. Get some botox."
I do not think this is the meanest behavior that goes on here by any means, but it was the only one I remember being the personal target of and so the only one I felt I legitimately had the right to bring up here. I believe that since Royal originally posted this, they should be willing to stand by their statement, and while it is no longer on the forum, that is not because Royal deleted it, but rather because the moderators deleted it.
Before the accusations start, yes, I understand this as a joke. I do not value it. Royal and I are not friends. There is no context for me to understand this as playful.
I am at an age where I feel a great deal of insecurity about my appearance as I transition into middle age. I felt, upon receiving that comment, as if I had been punched in the stomach and all the wind had been knocked out of me. A month ago, I wouldn't have done anything except walk away, lick my wounds, and heal. I reported it because I'm sick of seeing people get punched here under the pretense of "joking" or "telling it like it is". There's a difference. One is respectful of speaking to another human being with feelings and the other is just verbal abuse. Verbal attacks are not OK just because they're packaged as a joke, a debate, or tough love. I personally believe verbal abuse is rampant here.
For the other side of the calibration I'd like to speak to my feelings about [MENTION=3710]kiu[/MENTION]. She has expressed some concern that she is among those who are problematic. Again, I can't speak about anyone else's experience, but for me, I have a great deal of respect for her. I have been in a number of threads where we stood at different perspectives on an issue. One of the threads I'm thinking of standing on different sides of the issue from her on had an emotional element for me and based on what she wrote, I sensed it had some emotional undertone for her as well. Despite disagreeing, I never felt disrespected by her (and I hope she never felt so by me). Disagreement does not necessitate disrespect.
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION], I have not shared threads with you very often because my sense is that while I prefer the interpersonal/intrapersonal relationship threads, you likely more often frequent the debate threads. That said, I have enormous respect for what you outlined in your post here. I think there is some rich material for problem-solving within it. I hope it is taken under consideration by the forum and it's decision-makers. I also hope you don't choose to leave. While not knowing your posting style overall, based on the post in this thread, I see no reason why your style should not be welcome in a forum for infjs.
@zak Sorry you feel that way. I know how you feel because I have been there. God, have I been there. Reality is that there's always going to be some jackass that's going to show up and post some bullshit that he/she thinks is funny or clever, that is offensive. There are ways to reduce that but it's never going to completely stop. Sometimes there is malicious intent, but sometimes it's just a difference in perspective. Someone might just think "well it's funny/true/realistic, and if they don't like it they're being too uptight".
Addendum:
Royal reached out to me and apologized for the hurt I might have felt as a result of the original comment and clarified their intent. (they gave me permission to share this here, so I'm not overstepping bounds)
I wanted to say that I failed in my original experience with that comment in not contacting Royal at that point and letting them know how I was taking it and asking them about it.
I still think many situations here are rife for misunderstandings and miscommunications. My part of the miscommunication was not asking for clarification. +1 to the people who have stated that taking responsibility to ask for clarification has to part of the solution. I'm not budging on the need to engage respectfully with the people on the other side of the computer screen. I'm just expanding my perspective to realize I also may have failed to be respectful through assumption of intent instead of clarification of intent.
Royal reached out to me and apologized for the hurt I might have felt as a result of the original comment and clarified their intent. (they gave me permission to share this here, so I'm not overstepping bounds)
I wanted to say that I failed in my original experience with that comment in not contacting Royal at that point and letting them know how I was taking it and asking them about it.
I still think many situations here are rife for misunderstandings and miscommunications. My part of the miscommunication was not asking for clarification. +1 to the people who have stated that taking responsibility to ask for clarification has to part of the solution. I'm not budging on the need to engage respectfully with the people on the other side of the computer screen. I'm just expanding my perspective to realize I also may have failed to be respectful through assumption of intent instead of clarification of intent.
WTF? what a vile attack! shame on you Royal.
That tears it
I think I am done here
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