Is the world a business and people their slaves?

[sassafras]

Well the question is how could anyone have ownership over the physical that is earth (or a creation of earth). What makes that ear of corn any more yours than it is mine?

Sounds familiar, and Locke.

And yet, it all boils down to meritocratic principle.

You put in the work to till the land, to water the soil, to make sure it gets all the nutrients, and then harvest the corn. It's not necessarily the corn that you own, but the time and energy you put into it. Therefore, it is yours; your investment.

But of course, this is at the most basic level that concerns the division of labor. Things get a little more complex as you build on up.

 

[AUM]

Well the question is how could anyone have ownership over the physical that is earth (or a creation of earth). What makes that ear of corn any more yours than it is mine?

Yes, I see where you're getting at and I can't believe I didn't see this sooner.

So ok, now I think I know how to re-phrase this:

How do you survive in a world where everything is owned?
More precisely, how do you meet your basic needs without taking that same right to others?

To say that everything is free and yours is true but not obvious to many other people out there. I agree, the Earth and its resources belong to any group that is sustaining that life in that planet but when most people out there think that by ownership those resources belong to them, there's nothing that you can say or do to fight over with.

 

[bamf]

Sounds familiar, and Locke.

And yet, it all boils down to meritocratic principle.

You put in the work to till the land, to water the soil, to make sure it gets all the nutrients, and then harvest the corn. It's not necessarily the corn that you own, but the time and energy you put into it. Therefore, it is yours; your investment.

But of course, this is at the most basic level that concerns the division of labor. Things get a little more complex as you build on up.

Well that's exactly the point I was trying to get to. Because we have a sense of ownership over things, be it the physical or the time/effort that went into it, we feel that we are entitled to something to trade for our work. We'd run ourselves into the ground giving away our labors for free.

The entitlement/ownership equates to someone owing another for their work thus someone becomes the 'slave' to the other.

I don't exactly believe the Locke idea, just I was trying to explain why people are 'slaves'.

 

[bamf]

Yes, I see where you're getting at and I can't believe I didn't see this sooner.

So ok, now I think I know how to re-phrase this:

How do you survive in a world where everything is owned?
More precisely, how do you meet your basic needs without taking that same right to others?

To say that everything is free and yours is true but not obvious to many other people out there. I agree, the Earth and its resources belong to any group that is sustaining that life in that planet but when most people out there think that by ownership those resources belong to them, there's nothing that you can say or do to fight over with.

Exactly, I'm not trying to advocate any one way of thinking is correct just that the way we are set up that it's almost impossible to escape this 'slavery'. I don't really know how one would live in a world of ownership and escape that very idea.

 

[muir]

slavery

It seems that wherever there are concentrations of power there will be corruption and oppression. If money and power are the same thing its possible to follow the money and find the people pulling the strings.

We are always told that capitalism is supposed to create competition which is supposed to drive prices down for the consumer. In reality the rich and powerful collude with each other so that there is: insider trading, price fixing, bid-rigging, monopolies etc.

We are also told that capitalism is efficient and yet the employer will only pay the worker enough so they won't quit and the worker will only do enough work that they aren't fired.

The markets are held up by some to be the answer to everything, but they do not operate freely as they are manipulated by the rich and the powerful. The markets deal with economic cost, but they don't take into account the human cost or the environmental cost, so they are not a perfect system.

We don't have to be limited with a choice between enterprise capitalism or communism. There are as many ways to organise a society and to allocate resourcess as the human brain can conceive.

 

[Duty]

We don't have to be limited with a choice between enterprise capitalism or communism. There are as many ways to organise a society and to allocate resourcess as the human brain can conceive.

People love their dichotomies though...

Black People/White People
Catholic/Christian (as if Catholics aren't Christians...maybe just a Midwest thing to not know the word "protestant")
Democrat/Republican
.
.
.
etc


It's a natural tendency to draw lines in the sand with people who disagree, even if you're working toward the same end goal.

 

[muir]

dichotomies

I think.....and obviously i am just throwing ideas out here, i am not asserting anything as absolute truth....that the rich and powerful are very good at driving wedges between people. They use the oldest trick in the book: divide and rule.

The more they can turn people against each other the more they are empowered as people look to them for protection or leadership in what they think is a dangerous world. It is the divisions that make it a dangerous world though.

The differences between people around the world are tiny compared to what people have in common. We are the 5th ape we have evolved from common anscestors. We need to find a way past our surface cultural differences or pointless arguments about ethnicity and start focussing on the common ground.

We all have the same needs regardless of what country we are in. There is a small number of people who are stopping everyone from having their needs met. They don't want to see positive change because they would then lose all their power, so they prevent it.

We can shape the world how we want though. The game isn't over....there is everything to play for. With the internet it has never been easier for people to exchange ideas and get to the root of what is happening. It does seem though that one side in a conflict can get (pay/influence/coerce) an 'expert' to say something to support their stance and the other side can get their 'expert' to say something totally different!

In a 'democracy' it becomes a battle for people's minds. I am looking for answers myself, but there are a lot of points of view out there! I guess it comes down to hearing as many views as i can and then deciding what sounds right and who i trust.

One interesting view is put across by documentary maker Adam Curtis in his documentary 'The Trap'. It's on google videos, in 3 parts, if you're interested. He has made another interesting documentary about the 'war on terror' called 'The Power of Nightmares'. Its all food for thought!

 

[Lucifer]

Why( regardless of your political/economical affiliations) is the world all about money?

Because those people with more wealth tend to have the more powerful position in the world thus their is maintained. They are more powerful because the more you trade the more livlihoods depend on you.

Why do we need money in the first place?

Well I heard an explanation that seems pretty convincing. Yah see back in the pre agricultural era trade and ownership weren't really necessary cause you only had what you needed. Once people started to move into settlements and farming they started using the division of labor to be more productive. In order to maintain the division of labor trade was necessary. Currency is an extension of trade.

This system was clearly invented by men with the intentions of doing what?

Accumulating wealth.

Why is it that it depends on itfor society to function as it is and that millions of children, hard-working citizens and all others in between work, work and work and in return they get nothing?

It depends on society to function because bartering is an inefficient way to trade the variety of goods we have. Lets say you're a piano tuner you need to eat right so you would need to find a farmer with a piano, you also need plumbing, a house, electricity, and all the other modern amenities. All the people who would provide you with said amenities would also need to have a piano... do you see were I am going with this? Money expands what you can trade cause everyone needs it.

(A paycheck, so, is money more valuable than our time?)

I like the way you put that.


I will adress the rest your post later it is late so I have ceased thinking clearly.

 

[Shai Gar]

Wealth distribution, simply, is one of the largest contributors toward "the great world problem." I forget the author, but it's a great quote: "If I give the poor food, they call me a saint. If I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

Helder Camara - Brazil's archbishop of the poor

 

[daydreamer]

Why not? I know I would if it was something that I truly am passion it for. To tell you the truth, getting paid is the last thing on my list once I get a job.

A lot of people think otherwise, unfortunately. Plus, it's like a bonus to get paid for a job you love. But some people don't like their jobs at all but need the money.