Is forgiveness connected to self-betrayal?

Pristinegirl

Pristinegirl

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ANFP
If forgiveness ultimately puts an end to the trap of self-punishment, is then the self liberation connected to the initial view on self-betrayal as well?

[Sorry if the sentence structure is strange]

What I'm trying to say is if forgiveness is interconnected to self-betrayal?
 
I would see it like this. If I don't accuse myself of anything, and I have no desire to punish myself for anything, then I can take this a bit further and not want to accuse or punish others for anything. No accusations, no desire to punish = no need to forgive. It could be argued, I suppose, that once I accuse and desire to punish, I have betrayed myself, and it would be time to rethink such a position, for to betray ones' self would also to betray others, don't you think?
 
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yes... for we are usually our own worst enemy...

we have to learn to forgive ourselves before we can forgive others... only then can we be at peace...

many people can say that "i can forgive, but i won't forget"... easier said than done...

i was in a physical hell for almost 3 years cause i couldn't forgive myself, and i definitely couldn't the other person...

but i think, over time, i had come to grips with it... and now, i truly hope that my 2nd ex-wife (that put me through so much hell) is truly happy where she is now... and now i feel much more at peace and not really angry now...
 
Forgiveness is the opposite of self betrayal.

I am sitting here trying to type up an explanation, but I don't know how to explain it unless you understand some philosophy.
 
I would say that the self liberation is connected to the self betrayal in that the self liberation alleviates it.
 
No, I'd sooner make that connection with an apology.
 
i tend to feel wrath and anger, a bitterness when i feel i have been wronged... to different degrees, i will hold grudges too...

but for now, there is only a little turmoil with one person in my life...
 
Hmm...if I'm reading this correctly, I think the only way we can be liberated is to either forgive, or be sincerely forgiven. We either have to forgive ourselves for past things, or forgive others - and yes, that does change us...but for the better, in my opinion.
 
efromm said:
Yes I think it is also. It seems when you forgive you also give up something to forgive.
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True. "Forgiveness is setting a prisoner free, and find that prisoner is me." There's a quote like that floating around. Forgiveness is me giving up my right to get even, my right for revenge, my right to strike back. When I give that up, I'm not saying the other person is not guilty. I'll let the Universe/God/Karma/etc handle that. When I give up the right (read: the need) to get even, I am at peace. Bottled up unforgiveness eats away at your soul.
 
Pristinegirl said:
But doesn't this mean that 'forgive and forget' are synonyms?
Because initially it seems like, to be liberated we have to (give up) forget (?) and move on.

I forgive others so easily but I'm harder on myself...
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I don't see these two actions (verbs) as synomyms. Perhaps a better phrase would be to "forgive and grow" or to "forgive and learn?" I am of the opinion that all forgiveness is of the self. I forgive myself for getting mad or angry or upset or sad or whatever and I learn from this, and I grow from this. This is liberating and growing and learning I think. I don't actually think of it as forgiveness though. SO - I can drop the "forgive" part and stick with the learning and growing parts.

It is kind of like "There are no mistakes: There are only learning experiences"
 
mayflow said:
I don't see these two actions (verbs) as synomyms. Perhaps a better phrase would be to "forgive and grow" or to "forgive and learn?" I am of the opinion that all forgiveness is of the self. I forgive myself for getting mad or angry or upset or sad or whatever and I learn from this, and I grow from this. This is liberating and growing and learning I think. I don't actually think of it as forgiveness though. SO - I can drop the "forgive" part and stick with the learning and growing parts.

It is kind of like "There are no mistakes: There are only learning experiences"
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I think that you are very wise as always mayflow. I admire that you can do so. however it is easier said than done. see, at the initial point I learn but often fall back to the same thing but in a different context. It seems like changing a pattern is harder said than done.
 
Pristinegirl said:
I think that you are very wise as always mayflow. I admire that you can do so. however it is easier said than done. see, at the initial point I learn but often fall back to the same thing but in a different context. It seems like changing a pattern is harder said than done.
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Changing a pattern is always hard precisely because it's a pattern. It's something with which we're comfortable on some level, no matter how much we may want to change it. Changing a pattern means doing something differently over and over again until the new way becomes the pattern. Sometimes it feels like beating your head against a wall, but eventually the new behavior will become the pattern--or at least you'll be able to catch yourself before falling into your old ways.

Sometimes, I've had to change other things in my life to make the changes that I'm consciously seeking. For example, I grew up with a lot of chaos and I wanted desperately to escape that, but my first two marriages were very chaotic and unhappy. It wasn't until I got sober and started taking my medication regularly that I was able to find a partner who gave me strength and peace instead of grief and chaos. I still, even after all these years, find myself slipping into my old pattern, but now I recognize it and make the changes I need in order to have the life I've come to value.
 
Pristinegirl said:
But doesn't this mean that 'forgive and forget' are synonyms?
Because initially it seems like, to be liberated we have to (give up) forget (?) and move on.

I forgive others so easily but I'm harder on myself...
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Mayflow and Anica have raised excellent points. I'd like to make one last point here. If you forget, how do you learn? How do you grow? If you're like me, you don't forget the pain that someone has caused you. You don't forget. You forgive. You don't rationalize it away, you don't forget it, you don't pretend it didn't happen or that it was no big deal. It happened, it was a big deal, it was wrong, and you forgive. As I said earlier, you give up your right to revenge. You choose to live a life filled with love, rather a life filled with bitterness and revenge. It could be argued that prejudices and wars all have their roots in unforgiveness. Think about that. Humanity has been there before, and it'll keep going back there until humanity decides it's better to live and love and learn.

Rant out.
 
Milon said:
Mayflow and Anica have raised excellent points. I'd like to make one last point here. If you forget, how do you learn? How do you grow? If you're like me, you don't forget the pain that someone has caused you. You don't forget. You forgive. You don't rationalize it away, you don't forget it, you don't pretend it didn't happen or that it was no big deal. It happened, it was a big deal, it was wrong, and you forgive. As I said earlier, you give up your right to revenge. You choose to live a life filled with love, rather a life filled with bitterness and revenge. It could be argued that prejudices and wars all have their roots in unforgiveness. Think about that. Humanity has been there before, and it'll keep going back there until humanity decides it's better to live and love and learn.
Rant out.
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By forget , I meant to give up the thoughts. With this I mean that I will not linger on WHY they wanted to harm me, How they could be so mean, hurt me, struggle and fight with these thoughts.

Ahh Milon, you are so deep and vulnerble it almost affects me into sadness. I'm definetly like you but if someone genuinely says they are sorry, then for one I will forgive them but secondly that I give up the thoughs by forgetting them and move on. (I don't know why I made forget/give up synonymous here, hmm I feel as if this says something haha)

Of course I will always remember the emotional distress it caused me and suffer by merely thinking about the times. So what I'm saying is that the sadness I feel upon the person will easily dissappear but the initial harm that it made, may not.
 
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