I find it hard to date....
- Thread starter dvdt24
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Ha ha ha... hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha...
ha...
That may be what women say they want.
Also I think it's unfair to a friendship to go into it trying to make anything different out of it. it can develop over time naturally especially if there has always been sexual tension in the friendship. but it's certainly not how I would "go about" trying to find a partner.
Fact: Your p-type is genetic
Every N on this app, has a N ancestors usually within 1-2 generations, rarely 3-4
If you think this is BS take a trip to Germany or Jerusalem. And see just how many they're are.
I have an INFJ friend who built a website, and it goes in depth on p type geneology, as well as motion recognition.
I think it would make a lot of sense to an INF:
www.Paulosrecognition.com
Keep an open mind, and check it out.
1:15 to 1:27 makes that girl a great candidate in my book.
It may be different for men but I think that sometimes we see Looking for, Open to, and waiting around for a relationship as different things. I think most people feel like looking for a relationship is too desperate a feeling.
Whoever she is just ask her out.
If you ever do find a female INFJ that you take a shine to then I suggest stating your intentions straight out.
As for starting from friends
Myself and my twin sister have had very different experiences with dating. I have had four relationships, each of them fairly lengthy, with gaps of between 3 months and a year in between. She has had a few very short relationships and long gaps in between. I think the main difference between us is our choices. I consider myself to have been fairly lucky with eligible men going for me, and perhaps some of the people that she could have dated may have been less so. But I think the difference from the beginning has been that she will under not circumstances take a risk. She won't go out with anyone unless she's completely sure, and it;s all very black and white. I will give it a go initially, see how it goes for a few months, or even longer. Then call it off if it doesn't work. Either way is fine really! We're both in the same boat now, even though we didn't approach things the same way. But I will say I am probably more confident in relationships, and less lonely over the last five years than she has been. Maybe try relaxing and seeing how things go just a few times. You may meet the special one, or you may pass your time enjoyably in the lead up to meeting her.
With regard to VH's post
Yes, i hate that fear of dropping into the friend zone. sigh...
2nd issue. I can't stand the thought of wanting a relationship wanting to get into someone else's pants. That being said, i admit i have made mistakes in the past before but the saving grace is that i recognized what was happening very early on and wanted to correct the path before irrepairable damage was done. However, due to my inexperience in handling such a situation (it was my first time) I said some things that hurt her. Regret as i may, it happened and i accept it as part of my list of sins. Don't ever wanna have to go through that again.
It's a dumb paradox considering the fact that when we are more interested in someone we're more likely to protect them even against ourselves while at the same time suffering the conflict of wanting the same person. But then, for me my protective side still wins over my selfish side. Or maybe i wasn't very interested?
I don't think it's wrong to "want" a relationship, it doesn't mean a person is desperate. It just means that you're yearning for companionship. Desperation is when you're emotionally and psychologically affected in a way that you're just incapable of resisting the thought of it.
Yes, i have a strong yearning for a companion, a soul mate... but at the same time i'm capable of appreciating the space i have to grow and develop my self while being single.
I think, it shudn't be hard for any girl to date me since i'm very open to experiences but yet, it doesn't help with the self esteem. Having the right stuff doesn't mean u have what it takes to use that right stuff. It's cause of my natural tendencies to hide everything unless i'm very interested.
hmmmm...
Yes, i hate that fear of dropping into the friend zone. sigh...
2nd issue. I can't stand the thought of wanting a relationship wanting to get into someone else's pants. That being said, i admit i have made mistakes in the past before but the saving grace is that i recognized what was happening very early on and wanted to correct the path before irrepairable damage was done. However, due to my inexperience in handling such a situation (it was my first time) I said some things that hurt her. Regret as i may, it happened and i accept it as part of my list of sins. Don't ever wanna have to go through that again.
It's a dumb paradox considering the fact that when we are more interested in someone we're more likely to protect them even against ourselves while at the same time suffering the conflict of wanting the same person. But then, for me my protective side still wins over my selfish side. Or maybe i wasn't very interested?
I don't think it's wrong to "want" a relationship, it doesn't mean a person is desperate. It just means that you're yearning for companionship. Desperation is when you're emotionally and psychologically affected in a way that you're just incapable of resisting the thought of it.
Yes, i have a strong yearning for a companion, a soul mate... but at the same time i'm capable of appreciating the space i have to grow and develop my self while being single.
I think, it shudn't be hard for any girl to date me since i'm very open to experiences but yet, it doesn't help with the self esteem. Having the right stuff doesn't mean u have what it takes to use that right stuff. It's cause of my natural tendencies to hide everything unless i'm very interested.
hmmmm...
Oh boy! When I first read this thread I thought this was about overcoming one's difficulties with the ritual of dating (the way INTJs don't like smalltalk). I didn't know this was about not knowing how to advertise one's self to women.
The link [MENTION=708]VH[/MENTION] posted up there, the one on ladder theory, I think that pretty much covers the essence, but it's rough and somehow incomplete. And it's also just one way to look at it. Another method is the one's drafted by the Pick-Up Artists, that also works. My opinion on these things: Yes, they work, they apparently really work, but I don't like them, I don't use them, never done, never will. Also, apparently they only work on weak women, or the ones who are immature or don't know what they want or something like that. But they work on most women.
Anyway, another way to look at it is from a, let's say, "natural" point of view. And the thing that a lot of men do and the reason why they end up in the friend zone is because they advertise themselves as potential friends. If you want a woman, don't be nice, signal to her that you want her. There's a difference between friends-nice and mate-nice. And apparently, male INFJs do the first.
Interlude: You're a racist! And your Korean ex-girlfriend won't qualify that. No counter arguments needed.
Yes, it is harsh, but I wouldn't say it is shallow. It is just how things work.
The link [MENTION=708]VH[/MENTION] posted up there, the one on ladder theory, I think that pretty much covers the essence, but it's rough and somehow incomplete. And it's also just one way to look at it. Another method is the one's drafted by the Pick-Up Artists, that also works. My opinion on these things: Yes, they work, they apparently really work, but I don't like them, I don't use them, never done, never will. Also, apparently they only work on weak women, or the ones who are immature or don't know what they want or something like that. But they work on most women.
Anyway, another way to look at it is from a, let's say, "natural" point of view. And the thing that a lot of men do and the reason why they end up in the friend zone is because they advertise themselves as potential friends. If you want a woman, don't be nice, signal to her that you want her. There's a difference between friends-nice and mate-nice. And apparently, male INFJs do the first.
Interlude: You're a racist! And your Korean ex-girlfriend won't qualify that. No counter arguments needed.
Yes, it is harsh, but I wouldn't say it is shallow. It is just how things work.
I've had problems in the past with dating. Though not exactly the same problems it seems many INFJs have. I never really had the problem of getting friend zoned by anyone I've liked recently but my overall problem was that I would refuse to admit I liked someone until I was completely sure I was sure of my feelings and I was also completely sure that the other person liked me as well so the relationship would just kind of die out. After I got over being afraid someone might reject me, things got better for me. I suppose I don't really get placed into the friend zone because I don't tend to be excessively friendly with people I'm interested in. I tend to keep my friends and my romantic interests separate. With that being said, my current girlfriend was a friend of mine.
So, the problems with most INFJ (males perspective) when it comes to dating stem from being placed in the friend zone for legitimately trying to become friends with a woman? Would that be a good way to describe it?
(sorry, not thinking clearly atm)
So, the problems with most INFJ (males perspective) when it comes to dating stem from being placed in the friend zone for legitimately trying to become friends with a woman? Would that be a good way to describe it?
(sorry, not thinking clearly atm)
I don't fear the friend zone, but I stay clear from it. If we're headed for the friend zone I drop them because they are no longer interesting to me, and if they ask I tell them that. If they're not in love or otherwise with me then what feelings could I possibly hurt by saying that? If they whine about why, some of them try to make me believe we're not headed down the friend lane, while some of them try to make me feel bad for not wanting another female 'maybe' in my life. I say if she wants another slipper she can go pay a psychiatrist.
What I find annoying though is ending up with one night stands. I was once told "There's plenty of fish in the sea." How fucking encouraging, thank you.
Three times in a row now I've been used just for sex. Two of which, as it turned out, they were on a "break" with their boyfriend and got back together afterwards. Now, for some guys, it could come as a turn on to be used for sex if they don't want commitment, but I'm not the type of guy who runs out looking for sex, dates, commitment, or anything in between, and I certainly do not pick up crap along side of the road. Maybe once every two years do I care to let someone in, and when I do I'm looking to commit, but it seems that every time I do, a bomb is dropped on my head that says "No, women are batshit crazy, and so are you."
I'm also not a big fan of "What happens now?" I wish I could just avoid that part all together. Guessing games is not my territory, and I don't like it.
What I find annoying though is ending up with one night stands. I was once told "There's plenty of fish in the sea." How fucking encouraging, thank you.
Three times in a row now I've been used just for sex. Two of which, as it turned out, they were on a "break" with their boyfriend and got back together afterwards. Now, for some guys, it could come as a turn on to be used for sex if they don't want commitment, but I'm not the type of guy who runs out looking for sex, dates, commitment, or anything in between, and I certainly do not pick up crap along side of the road. Maybe once every two years do I care to let someone in, and when I do I'm looking to commit, but it seems that every time I do, a bomb is dropped on my head that says "No, women are batshit crazy, and so are you."
I'm also not a big fan of "What happens now?" I wish I could just avoid that part all together. Guessing games is not my territory, and I don't like it.
Hard truth; it's still very much an alpha male's world.....sigh......
To mate one has to hunt like a predator. Learnt it the hard way recently. Yes i admit i was the uninvited one, but had a high chance of getting her from him (came oh so close, similar to what would be like the transition state in a chemical reaction). Being the INFJ that i was, took my time(bout four months??), the soft approach(no dates nada, alittle flirting here and there,Mr Nice Guy, felt bad (me the wussy)) and not head on like how they do it in the animal kingdom. Guess she got tired of me taking my time(will be parting ways in a year's time due to college)......
side note: went straight pass the friend zone (we kinda clicked pretty fast) within a month or two after meeting her. Seen numerous schoolmates get themselves stuck in the "friend" zone and never move much further than that....
Used to be the usual INFJ self till highschool (read introvert nerd/loner,still am sometimes), the one guy in class who was neither here nor there. Never really bothered to make myself stand out which kinda made me invisible to people... Have been trying to change my image (i hate to admit, but it feels highly superficial), get better at sports, making jokes yada yada yada you get the flow... and making my presence felt(moving out of my mind's bubble). Darwinian theory at work?? Hell Yeah!!!. Survival of the fittest.
Although deep down i still yearn for the magical relationship comparable to a romantic novel which INFJs likely would wish for. I tremble in fear of the day that the shadow of me starts to dominate me (treading a fine line now) and changes me into another superficial human being striving for superficial goals.
I do apologize if this sounds blunt and written in the spur of the moment. Am still furious with myself for letting myself lose another again. Maybe one will come where we could take our time but till then i've sworn off taking my time. World needs to change?? Nah..... I've got to change myself......Beware for the shadow self has arrived. Someone's gonna get hurt. Will hunt like a lion which has not eaten for days, national geographic style, a fight to the death. No prey's safe...!!!!
Let the chase begin!!!! No more Mr Nice Guy...!!!!
Cringe...sometimes i scare myself i wonder whether i'm really an INFJ............
To mate one has to hunt like a predator. Learnt it the hard way recently. Yes i admit i was the uninvited one, but had a high chance of getting her from him (came oh so close, similar to what would be like the transition state in a chemical reaction). Being the INFJ that i was, took my time(bout four months??), the soft approach(no dates nada, alittle flirting here and there,Mr Nice Guy, felt bad (me the wussy)) and not head on like how they do it in the animal kingdom. Guess she got tired of me taking my time(will be parting ways in a year's time due to college)......
side note: went straight pass the friend zone (we kinda clicked pretty fast) within a month or two after meeting her. Seen numerous schoolmates get themselves stuck in the "friend" zone and never move much further than that....
Used to be the usual INFJ self till highschool (read introvert nerd/loner,still am sometimes), the one guy in class who was neither here nor there. Never really bothered to make myself stand out which kinda made me invisible to people... Have been trying to change my image (i hate to admit, but it feels highly superficial), get better at sports, making jokes yada yada yada you get the flow... and making my presence felt(moving out of my mind's bubble). Darwinian theory at work?? Hell Yeah!!!. Survival of the fittest.
Although deep down i still yearn for the magical relationship comparable to a romantic novel which INFJs likely would wish for. I tremble in fear of the day that the shadow of me starts to dominate me (treading a fine line now) and changes me into another superficial human being striving for superficial goals.
I do apologize if this sounds blunt and written in the spur of the moment. Am still furious with myself for letting myself lose another again. Maybe one will come where we could take our time but till then i've sworn off taking my time. World needs to change?? Nah..... I've got to change myself......Beware for the shadow self has arrived. Someone's gonna get hurt. Will hunt like a lion which has not eaten for days, national geographic style, a fight to the death. No prey's safe...!!!!
Let the chase begin!!!! No more Mr Nice Guy...!!!!Cringe...sometimes i scare myself i wonder whether i'm really an INFJ............
Yes, and not only that. You have to signal to your potential mate that you're not going to be her friend (aka Mr. Nice Guy), that your own values and your own fulfillment will always be more important than her, and you have to subject all other men within your peer group under your power.
I've been thinking about this need that women have for two lines of protection.
Women need communal protection, which is why they bond with the other women they compete with and want male friends. There is safety in numbers. On an evolutionary level, women were the gatherers, and they moved in 'herds'. This is why females have an instinct to foster and maintain friendship bonds. However, this is the first line of defense and is unspecific, relying on the safety in numbers principle, not specific protection.
That's where the mate protector comes in. This is the main line of defense from both outside threats and internal threats. The mate protector is supposed to protect from predators as well as other members of the communal protection network (as females have a strong competition instinct).
The bonds in the communal network don't need to be especially deep. If a few people aren't enamoured, that's fine, so long as they aren't enemies. (This is where the drive to "be friends" comes from). So long as there are a number of people who will offer assistance out of an emotional bond that stems from empathy, the communal netowrk serves its purpose. The mate protector however, has to be such a deep bond that he will be willing to risk his life to defend her. This is why sex is reserved for this individual. Aside from the oxytocin responses that enforce pair bond feelings that are released when people have sex, males are prone to jealousy and are not likely to defend a female that is hooking up with another male (this breaks down the oxytocin bonds - no really, scientifically proven) and that male is not only likely to stop protecting her, but might hurt or kill her. Therefore, females have an instinct to not have sex with anyone but their mate protector. If a woman has sex with someone else, it's generally because she's trying to catch a better mate protector (even if she's not consciously aware of the instinct being triggered).
All that to say, unless you're triggering a female's instincts to see you as a mate protector, you're not getting anything other than friendship. It's that simple.
Women need communal protection, which is why they bond with the other women they compete with and want male friends. There is safety in numbers. On an evolutionary level, women were the gatherers, and they moved in 'herds'. This is why females have an instinct to foster and maintain friendship bonds. However, this is the first line of defense and is unspecific, relying on the safety in numbers principle, not specific protection.
That's where the mate protector comes in. This is the main line of defense from both outside threats and internal threats. The mate protector is supposed to protect from predators as well as other members of the communal protection network (as females have a strong competition instinct).
The bonds in the communal network don't need to be especially deep. If a few people aren't enamoured, that's fine, so long as they aren't enemies. (This is where the drive to "be friends" comes from). So long as there are a number of people who will offer assistance out of an emotional bond that stems from empathy, the communal netowrk serves its purpose. The mate protector however, has to be such a deep bond that he will be willing to risk his life to defend her. This is why sex is reserved for this individual. Aside from the oxytocin responses that enforce pair bond feelings that are released when people have sex, males are prone to jealousy and are not likely to defend a female that is hooking up with another male (this breaks down the oxytocin bonds - no really, scientifically proven) and that male is not only likely to stop protecting her, but might hurt or kill her. Therefore, females have an instinct to not have sex with anyone but their mate protector. If a woman has sex with someone else, it's generally because she's trying to catch a better mate protector (even if she's not consciously aware of the instinct being triggered).
All that to say, unless you're triggering a female's instincts to see you as a mate protector, you're not getting anything other than friendship. It's that simple.
I gave up a long, long time ago and don't even try. I know that once a woman gets to really know me, it'll be just too much for them. I am fun and easy to be around, but at the same time I am also a very spiritual person. The reality of it is that here in suburbia, that is just not what women really want. I don't blame them, I'm the one who is out-of-step....it's my choice. I have placed myself in the permanent friend zone and plan to stay there. This makes everything easier and having friends ain't too bad.
Yes, and I'm sure it's less painful to expect nothing as opposed to being placed into the friend zone when you would desperately like to have something more. But here's the thing, Intuitive women are going to pick up on this. Of course you know that, guess I just thought I should mention it for anyone who thought they might like to adopt your technique as a means of protection.
I actually do agree with this to a degree. I do think that sometimes when you stop looking you'll find yourself at the right place, at the right time and someone will catch your eye. You DO have to put the work into pursuing them though. Just because they're there and you're there doesn't mean something is magically going to happen. You have to do something about it.
Truthfully I've very rarely actively looked for someone to be with. I'm really not much for "dating" in the first place. I'd rather build a foundation with someone than jump right into being together, though my luck in terms of relationships is really abysmal. I do think sometimes you can tell when the chemistry and compatibility is there right from the get go, though and things will just follow naturally.
A very good point, and they are welcome to it. One has to be prepared for the ramifactions (intended or otherwise) of such a strategy.
