Why is it strange? It's New York City... it happens all the time. A lot of older men sit out in front of bodega's or the stores that they own with neighborhood friends. I'm constantly in Harlem and Upper Manhattan and a lot of men play chess in front of stores as well.
How do you feel about cat calling?
- Thread starter Gaze
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Why is it strange? It's New York City... it happens all the time. A lot of older men sit out in front of bodega's or the stores that they own with neighborhood friends. I'm constantly in Harlem and Upper Manhattan and a lot of men play chess in front of stores as well.
Random men let loose out in the wild. We need to cage these animals!
For those of you wondering where I walk in New York City (got some reps about it), I walk through all the different neighborhoods (even the neighborhoods that the woman is seen walking through in the video). I've walked all these neighborhoods at night too. I've walked around in Harlem, Soho, West Village, Midtown Manhattan, Lower East Side, parts of Brooklyn, the Bronx, just everywhere in the NYC area. I'm a New York City girl and I've grown up here all my life. It doesn't matter where I walk around New York City. Since I am a female, I WILL be cat called, taunted, and harassed despite my appearance and/or if I give off a vibe that I don't want to be bothered. It's inevitable.
And for those of you who obviously don't get it, imagine walking down the street everyday on your commute and being subjected to the taunts and teasing that the woman goes through in the youtube video. That is EXACTLY what I go through, along with countless other women in New York City. It gets old VERY quick. I even bring around a switchblade with me just in case something happens, and yes.. I have had to use it.
So if you think I'm being a "bit too sensitive" about this, I'm fuckin' not. I live this bullshit everyday and have been conditioned to keep my head down and keep walking... because responding to these guys only makes the situation worse, most of the time. As a woman, I should have a right to my personal space and to not to be verbally harassed... but unfortunately I live in a huge city where a lot of my rights are taken away from me on a daily basis because I have tits.
I envy a lot of you who actually feel safe where you live.
And for those of you who obviously don't get it, imagine walking down the street everyday on your commute and being subjected to the taunts and teasing that the woman goes through in the youtube video. That is EXACTLY what I go through, along with countless other women in New York City. It gets old VERY quick. I even bring around a switchblade with me just in case something happens, and yes.. I have had to use it.
So if you think I'm being a "bit too sensitive" about this, I'm fuckin' not. I live this bullshit everyday and have been conditioned to keep my head down and keep walking... because responding to these guys only makes the situation worse, most of the time. As a woman, I should have a right to my personal space and to not to be verbally harassed... but unfortunately I live in a huge city where a lot of my rights are taken away from me on a daily basis because I have tits.
I envy a lot of you who actually feel safe where you live.
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have you ever met someone you liked through their cat calling, or do you know someone who has?
This is interesting.
I agree with the point of your post. If it happens too often and a lot, it gets annoying and possibly scary.
The right of personal space in public in a huge city is probably an issue. Some questions on this.
1) Can one expect to have optimum respect of personal space in public in a huge city?
2) When is one's personal space invaded and when isn't it?
On the first question.
For example in my country people are allowed to film anything in public. I'd still consider it an invasion of my personal space or privacy of someone does this to me.
By going into public we sacrifice some privacy and personal space, simply because the space we are in isn't personal, but public. This is inevitable.
On the second one.
I think is what the debate is about. Is a random guy yelling "You're hot!" an invasion of your personal space? Some will say it is, some say it isn't. I'm on the fence with this. At first this seems harmless to me, but as you explain if you hear it everyday I agree that it becomes too much. The same about sexist or racist jokes. I can laugh about them once in a while, but if you repeat them too often it'll bother me.
What I still can't see as invasion of personal space is a text like "How are you doing, miss?". This doesn't imply anything sexual ("hot" could imply that) and seems like a regular polite question. Maybe their intentions are sexual, but maybe they aren't. But saying that any approach of another person is an invasion of your personal space, makes me think one shouldn't leave his house at all.
I'm trying to think in solutions here.
My suggestion in my previous post in this thread was changing the interpretation of the cat called woman. This is because I think some cat calling can be seen as a regular compliment, rather than "I want sex".
Any solutions in laws don't seem possible. We cannot deny each other the right to approach someone in public.
Any influencing of the cat callers seems too hard to me to bother. Firstly, I cannot reach them in any way right now. Secondly, likely no one here can reach them, except maybe the cat called, but I doubt they want to approach cat callers. Thirdly, simply creating awareness in media isn't going to reach the lions share of the cat callers. Fourthly, even if it reaches them I sincerely doubt if they will change their behaviour. And finally, changing the behaviour and underlying culture of the guys that cat call would at least take years, probably decennia, to accomplish even if large scale effort is put into it.
The only realistic solution is changing your own interpretation.
Yeah, that seems weird, because you have to adapt because someone else does something wrong. I agree. It sucks. But if you want change anytime soon, it's your best bet.
(Unless, of course, you simply move somewhere where there are no or less cat callers. But that also involves you changing for them.)
So "Hey beautiful! How are you doing?" actually means "I want to have sex with you and you should want to have sex with me"?
Wow. Maybe one could get a self-fulfililng prophecy going with that assumption.
I'm a man, so I don't have any first hand experience. Yes, harassment is an issue and was shown in that video.
But a lot of people fliterally say simple and nice things. Whether they want to have sex or not cannot be assumed.
Assuming such a thing from every guy that gives you a compliment must make going out in public quite unbearable and I'd advise to not make that assumption.
You totally have the right to be paranoid and fearful. You also have the right to fear that there's going to be a zombie outbreak or virus epidemic. You also have the right to be afraid that there's going to be a meteor strike on your house.
I admit the chances of being raped in broad daylight on a busy street are higher than any of the examples I gave. Though I guess you're more likely to get involved in a car accident than be raped. (I assumed those statistics though. For reference you're 10 times more likely to get raped than to die in a car accident.)
Irrational fears and negative interpretations make your life worse. It's understandable that you have them and you are allowed to have them. But I think life is more enjoyable when you interpret a "Hey beautiful! How are you doing?" as a compliment, instead of a sex-request.
To put my post in context of this debate:
I discuss the interpretation of certain words in the mind of a woman. I assume street harassment as given.
Being a T type, I take words to their literal meaning. Being an optimist, I try to frame words so they are seen as positive.
Also I put some INTJ sarcasm in there. Hope it wasn't too hurtful.
No, I'm not surprised that you said most of this. I believe those two seemingly insane -to me- people in that conversation were also T's. The problem I have with that is, you guys have such an inability to empathize because you're feeling function is more often than not the last function you have. So to me you guys come off as psychopaths because I feel so much and you feel so little and your inability to empathize is crazy to me.
I also think it's funny that you corrected yourself about those statistics, you already when you were typing it that you were wrong. Now along side with that statistic you cited here's another: about 1 in 4 women have been molested. Think about how many women in this world have suffered some kind of sexual abuse at the hands of a man. Think about how many of those women have to endure being cat called on the street.
Now, you can't understand how the way these men are speaking to this woman is offensive because you're a T and you're not very sensitive and pretty inept at social cues, I understand that -Understand this: it is their tone of voice, it is their mannerisms. Those men aren't saying, "hey, you're really pretty" with a sense of wonder, they are saying it with a sense of entitlement. I paid you a compliment, now you owe me something. You need to acknowledge me, you need to say hello, you need to smile and when you don't smile I'll call you a bitch. And that's the problem. These men aren't doing because they think to themselves, "That woman is very beautiful, I think she should know." They're doing it because they want something out of it, the want something in return, and when they don't get it, "Fuck that bitch!"
You're a T and I don't expect much out of you -I really, really don't- but you probably should try to understand life in the eyes of somebody who has feelings before you do shit like this.
I see and understand your problem. I cannot imagine the feeling, because I've never experienced it myself. I'm not sure where empathy falls between these two. I understand that cat calling is horrible to you and I totally wish it wouldn't happen in this world. The same for many other harassments or cruelties. But as I'm a thinker and judging type I try to find solutions. I can empathise and wish all day. It won't stop it! I want it to stop. So I try to find a solution. This is the way a thinker shows that he cares.
Nah I still believe I was right. I just don't know it for sure. Do you? Sorry for not telling lies and being honest...
I found that one in seven girls are sexually abused before their 18th (in the US I assume). Source
1 in 4 seems a rather bright ratio if you consider the entire world. I bet it's worse than that.
It's terrible and we should all work on stopping it. ((Is this proper empathising? I find such statements mostly futile, because I assume everyone agrees.))
If their tone or manners indicate that, I agree it's bad. I've never experienced cat calling so I don't know if such indications happen 10%, 50% or 90% of the time. Seeing the video about walking in New York I didn't clearly perceive the such indication by tone or manners in about half the cases. The video also doesn't show the tones or manners clearly. The only information I could follow was the text they gave. A lot of text was bad and harassment, plenty wasn't though. Maybe the tone (that I couldn't perceive) indicated harassment.
Furthermore things like tone and manners are highly subjective and might be perceived incorrectly. Thus I don't like to follow them. That doesn't mean they aren't real though...
Wow, thanks.
I understand you alright. I just don't feel the need to express empathy in a way that you prefer to see it.
I still try to solve this issue. Maybe in a way that you don't like. (I'm not too happy with it either.) But I feel it's the most realistic and easiest done.
That's how I show that I care. By giving a solution to a problem in an rational (and sometimes unempathic) way.
Your post, even though I feel slightly bad for hurting you so much, is much appreciated. You showed me another side that I did not perceive in the video.
Lastly I want to mention that I don't appreciate your derogatory remarks. It's not so much the content, but more the way in which you present them:
- You generalise T types based on me, that's unfair to other T types. Rather call me a jerk and add that a possible cause is my T type.
- You frame derogatory messages as being understanding. This makes you look like an understanding and reasonable person, while you're speaking low of me.
- You frame judgements about me as facts.
If you believe that I'm insensitive, inept, a jerk or anything else, I'd prefer it if you don't hide it behind language tricks. You did this correct when you expressed your low expectation of me. That slightly hurts and feels much more honest than your other remarks.
Though I guess you're more likely to get involved in a car accident than be raped. (I assumed those statistics though. For reference you're 10 times more likely to get raped than to die in a car accident.) -This is where you corrected yourself; that's why I thought it was funny.
You should pay more attention to tones and mannerisms. If you want to think of it in a less subjective way, look at the interactions of other people. Those people you hang out with, when something happens and you notice a change in their demeanor, what happened? What made them change? Are they taking offense or are they happy? Tones, mannerisms and body language are the cause. When the effect is the thing you are trying to 'fix' or 'change' you should always look at the cause. How can this person communicate better so that this situation does not happen again? For someone who wants to find solutions in human behavior you absolutely cannot ignore human behavior and/or write it off as 'subjective.'
I did not generalize T types based on you, don't ever give yourself that much credit. You are not unique, you are one of many -something everyone should learn. However I did piss on you parade because the things you had said reminded me of many interactions with T types in the past month and I have 'had it up to here' with the kind of behavior and talk that you guys think is appropriate. When I say you are socially inept, I don't know a damn thing about you kid, I am deflecting and bitching about others. A lot of that -some of that- had nothing to do with you. At the same time, I don't appreciate the shit that you said. And I think that you had an idea that someone would take issue with your post before you posted it.
Now I am PMSing, I am not this quick to bitch regularly, but I have had my fill this month of people who speak the way you do and much, much worse. You just seem to have gotten the brunt of it.
I frame judgments on you as facts because you fit in a mold of, "This is a T, this is how a T acts, do not expect more than that." And I don't expect anything more of you. If I get more than that from you, holy shit will that be a nice surprise, but so far I have not from the majority of the T's I have interacted with. There are a select few who I have gotten more from and I think they're fucking amazing people. But again, I don't know you; you and I don't have a rapport. My standard for you is pretty low, which would make me think that you should have no problem surpassing that however that remains to be seen. I'm not saying you should hurry and surpass it, I'm not saying you should do anything at all -you don't owe me a damn thing. This is just my thought process. If you give me something to respect I will respect you; if you give me something to admire I will admire you. My standards in that though are quite a bit higher. Again, you have absolutely no reason to try with me; you don't owe me anything.
The way you change it -catcalling/harassment- is the way you change anything, by educating people. What these men are doing is ignorant, the way you get rid of ignorance is by teaching, learning, educating. I'm not saying there should be an anti cat calling class in high schools across america, I am saying that education should be more available in America. And realistically across the god damn world cause we're all fucked.
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Like many people here, I'll say it depends on context and delivery. If I'm walking down a semi-busy street, and a man calls out to me to tell I'm beautiful, sexy, hot, likes my outfit, etc. and I turn around and he smiles a big smile, it's a compliment. If that same man comments on my ass, my breasts, and tells me what he and his friends would do to me, it's crass and objectifying. If he's joined by his friends and they're all standing around laughing, it gets potentially a little threatening. Even though there's no intention to cause harm, there is a subconscious intention to cause alarm. This is a man who is confident that he can take whatever he wants and he's got his buddies to look on for a show. I do not think any man in his right mind would say that isn't a show of dominance. After all, this is usually when a boyfriend or a male friend typically speak up (if they're around) and get protective, because they know its not about making the woman feel good.
The worst types of cat-calls are the ones that come when other people aren't around. When you're walking down to the subway, a less populated street, a less populated anywhere really and the men persist on talking to you despite your obvious signs of discomfort. Men know what a woman fears in this situation. They're not stupid. This is the shit they tell their sisters, their daughters, their mothers, their female friends-- be wary of strangers. But if you tell them you're uncomfortable, instead of leaving you alone and understanding, they engage in arguments with you and the conversation gets tense. If you ignore them, they become more aggressive and name call, or worse, they will tell you that they hope you get raped (which is what a man once told me in this exact situation). It gets fucking scary.
Not all men are like this, of course. There are genuinely nice guys that cat call and they do it to appreciate the woman and they're mindful of the environment and the fact that she's not comfortable. But then there are a lot of assholes out there that really make it difficult to not be a little afraid every time you step out alone.
The worst types of cat-calls are the ones that come when other people aren't around. When you're walking down to the subway, a less populated street, a less populated anywhere really and the men persist on talking to you despite your obvious signs of discomfort. Men know what a woman fears in this situation. They're not stupid. This is the shit they tell their sisters, their daughters, their mothers, their female friends-- be wary of strangers. But if you tell them you're uncomfortable, instead of leaving you alone and understanding, they engage in arguments with you and the conversation gets tense. If you ignore them, they become more aggressive and name call, or worse, they will tell you that they hope you get raped (which is what a man once told me in this exact situation). It gets fucking scary.
Not all men are like this, of course. There are genuinely nice guys that cat call and they do it to appreciate the woman and they're mindful of the environment and the fact that she's not comfortable. But then there are a lot of assholes out there that really make it difficult to not be a little afraid every time you step out alone.
Well, this has been happening to me since puberty. It's scary when after all you've been through with this sort of thing, it continues with your daughters. I have even had my daughter called and grabbed in front of me on a special birthday night out in London. That tipped me over the edge. I kept screaming her age (she was very much under age but is remarkably tall for her age)
Not one person helped.
This is why I hate cities. That shit means nothing there.
Not a good memory.
Some people truly are horrid.
... but not all.
Not one person helped.
This is why I hate cities. That shit means nothing there.
Not a good memory.
Some people truly are horrid.
... but not all.
D
Deleted member 10171
[MENTION=3799]bionic[/MENTION] — Thanks for the explanation. It's not something I've seen (or noticed before - but then again I'm not the most observant person) but on this occasion it caught my attention. It's not something you see in the UK, certainly not where I live. Three men sitting in front of shops, in a row, on a busy road...passing the day, people watching (specifically women) and that would explain why women walking past would be a target for their social entertainment.
I've been to NY several times (it’s a completely different atmosphere in comparison to other parts of the US) but I didn't venture out to unfamiliar territory. I can’t get my head around what it must be like to experience a bombardment of personal and sexual taunting (not the “Have a nice day” sentiments) AND to experience it everywhere and ALL THE TIME - I can't really say I know what that feels like except to say it's beyond belief AND the impact it would have on my sense of well-being…..hmmmmm I don't know. I never take the feeling of being safe for granted - as I tend to be in my head a lot when walking, I'm rarely ever conscious of my surroundings...so to have the freedom to walk without being sexually pounced upon gives me a sense of peace.
I've been to NY several times (it’s a completely different atmosphere in comparison to other parts of the US) but I didn't venture out to unfamiliar territory. I can’t get my head around what it must be like to experience a bombardment of personal and sexual taunting (not the “Have a nice day” sentiments) AND to experience it everywhere and ALL THE TIME - I can't really say I know what that feels like except to say it's beyond belief AND the impact it would have on my sense of well-being…..hmmmmm I don't know. I never take the feeling of being safe for granted - as I tend to be in my head a lot when walking, I'm rarely ever conscious of my surroundings...so to have the freedom to walk without being sexually pounced upon gives me a sense of peace.
D
Deleted member 10171
[MENTION=5511]o_q[/MENTION] - How do you do it? I have been meaning to say this for a long time. Your responses are so refreshing and you have the most amazing sense of humour! Thx for making me laugh very hard! :lol:
This is something I can't relate to at all. I've lived in "big" cities and have spent a lot of time walking around them and have never experienced this. The closest I've come to feeling uncomfortable is going through East Van where all the homeless, drug addicts and mentally ill congregate in very large numbers and even then it's not me being attacked by them, but them trying to walk in front of my car to purposely get hit.
I can't fathom feeling that I need to carry protection and especially not needing to use it. To me, this environment is very foreign to me.
I don't think it's that any of us don't "get it," just as I wouldn't say you're being too sensitive at all. It's more that it's so outside the scope of not only personal experience but even what we've seen and heard from everyone around us. It just doesn't happen, and I know for myself it's very hard to envision the emotional wear down that would occur from enduring it day to day. At least from strangers. I have had very severe sexual harassment in my own life and in some cases my line of work, but those were "safe" environments where help was on hand if needed.
I think it's easy to watch a youtube video or read a newspaper article about something that happens and feel a disconnect from it because it doesn't happen to us, and in a lot of cases the videos and articles come off as a bit unnatural and don't really convey the scope of the issue. It's interesting to hear from someone we're all familiar with and how it feels to be in that situation on a regular basis.
You have balls that I don't have. I can't say that I'd have the guts to live there unless I was able to drive... and run people over lol.
Never claimed not to be sweetheart.
Would like to point out though that women feel the need to give out the excuse of pmsing while men are just dicks usually, and boy are you a bright shining example of that
Wow you sure showed me!
I didn't actually correct myself.
There's a difference between involvement in a car accident and
Tones and mannerisms are incredibly important and valuable sources of information. I still believe they're highly subjective. Even our interpretations of plain text are subjective. But I think we simply differ in our views in the philosophy of science.
I stand corrected. I assumed you did based on your previous post.
The bolded part makes me curious. While I used some sarcasm in my initial post, which is arguably 'not appropriate', I believe your behaviour is much less appropriate. You made it personal. You made claims about me and now admit that you're deflecting and bitching about others. How is this appropriate? I perfectly realise that you don't appreciate my 'shit', but I think you could've worded it more 'appropriate'.
Yes, I realised a high possibility of someone taking issue with my post. Is this a reason to not post it? Not to me. I'm not afraid to hurt of be hurt in discussions and debates. Heck, I even think in a few cases it's good for a discussion to be slightly provocative.
Did you expect someone to take issue with your post before you posted it? If you expected so, we agree that even if someone might take issue we'd still post our message.
I believe that behaviour is inappropriate. I understand it better now, because you explained it, and that helps. Thanks for being honest.
I understand. I do care a lot about what other people think of me. That's why I am replying to you in a reasonable way to explain my point of view. It feels weird that you frame your judgements as facts if you don't know me
I agree, but I'm afraid that such a solution won't help you right now. And that's the solution I was working for. If we consider our daughters I think your point on education is very good.
That's what I missed in my second post (quoted relevant part below). I didn't specify that I was looking for short term solutions, while long term solutions are probably even more important. Education is the key there.
What do you want me to say child? Do you want me to not tell you I'm PMSing? Let you know that my behavior towards you, that is very different from my normal behavior, is just me being a dick? Because it's not. I'm sorry you don't have a vagina, that you'd rather be ignorant of what PMS means and would rather think it's a cop out. I'm sure if you had sisters you'd understand this quite a bit more. If you do have sisters and did not learn from the experience of growing up with them, that's really sad; you should try harder.
You ever see that YouTube video of that guy telling his 'class' the scales of women's crazy? That a crazy of the lowest is marriage material and if the crazy is non existent that it's a dude -it's a "unicorn." K, that's true and it's true for a reason. When you're hormones start going crazy once a week out of every month, maybe even more depending, you let me know and we'll discuss this further. Until then, don't get dick hurt because I let you know I'm PMSing. It's so blatantly obvious to me when other women on this forum are PMSing, regardless of not letting the person they're yelling at know and just apologizing a week later, I'm not ok with not knowing why I'm acting a certain way. If I had it my way I would never PMS again, my hormones would be perfect and I'd be fine all the time cause shit really does roll off my back until this time of month. But there is no amount of medication or meditation that can lessen my angst and irrational feelings, believe you me I try. If you have a problem with it I suggest you get over it because more often than not every women you will encounter will do this flip when they are PMSing. It'd be better for you if you made an effort to understand it than to call it a cop out because they will get more pissed at you and then you'll deal with that. Until there is a cure for PMS you should probably understand it before you bitch about it.
