Health Care Reform Defeated

[Blind Bandit]

yes but you're an N, which means you aren't utterly useless when it comes to getting into peoples heads.

Bill where have you been N's are the onces inside peoples heads.

If you haven't noticed thats actually what Ni and Fe are good at.

I'm starting to think your not actually an N at all. Or your some other type in shadow.

I've encountered people like you. They are typically people who exaggerate their achievements and understate the amount of help they received getting to the point they are at and I don't even need my intuition to know you are no different. This is the kind of egotism that I have encountered all my life. I know the people who genuinely made it from poverty to riches because they always are generous to their fellow man to a fault. They understand the value of the relationships in their lives far outweigh the value of their material wealth and it is in them that I have found the greatest motivation to succeed. Not so that I can have a lot, but so that I can share what I do have with those who are important to me.

So damn true I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Bill my advice is to to admit your trapped yourself in a corner and leave it at that.

Your argument is rather weak.

 

[Billy]

That is called empathy.

the placing, not the judging.

Egotism is an exaggerated opinion of your own importance. Being self reliant and strong is meaningless unless you can share the fruits of those qualities with others.

According to you maybe. Thinking your belief is all there is, is another form of egotism.

Because you understate how this society has allowed you to attain what you have.

Where? Time and time again I have stated that the society in which I live was set up so that people can become rich and successful, In fact I think I even went as far as to say the founders set it up that way on purpose. I think you are just projecting.

You are libertarian. You want to keep what you earn, and you believe your personal freedom and choice is the most important thing in the world.

Yes, I am an American. And those things are the most important things in the world. What good is health if you are not free to enjoy it? And this is 1 fraction of who I am, are you dull sighted enough to not see that much at least? Or are you just a political socialist who wants to take what belongs to everyone else so you can feel superior against those who do not believe as you do? Its funny, what do you risk in spreading everyone's wealth?

So you are not judging me? In fact, your rational response is this emotive charge that I am being emotive? How funny.

You are being emotive, you cannot even talk without little flutters of anger sputtering through the crevices of the words you type. You are so ambitious to be right when you aren't even on the same page as me that its a whimsical joke. You remind me a lot of myself when I was in my late teens and early 20s. How old are you also?

 

[Billy]

Bill where have you been N's are the onces inside peoples heads.

If you haven't noticed thats actually what Ni and Fe are good at.

I'm starting to think your not actually an N at all. Or your some other type in shadow.




So damn true I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Bill my advice is to to admit your trapped yourself in a corner and leave it at that.

Your argument is rather weak.

This post of yours... my my... how do I put this delicately. Did you ever see Conan the Destroyer it was part 2. Remember the end when Conan kills the big monster Daggoth and then his little wussy partner comes over after its already slain and stabs it with his dagger and the music mimics Conans? That's what your post reminded me of. No real worthwhile attempt to make any serious point... just meaningless verbal masturbation. So you will have to excuse me if I dont take it seriously. OK?

 

[Blind Bandit]

the placing, not the judging.



According to you maybe. Thinking your belief is all there is, is another form of egotism.




Where? Time and time again I have stated that the society in which I live was set up so that people can become rich and successful, In fact I think I even went as far as to say the founders set it up that way on purpose. I think you are just projecting.




Yes, I am an American. And those things are the most important things in the world. What good is health if you are not free to enjoy it? And this is 1 fraction of who I am, are you dull sighted enough to not see that much at least? Or are you just a political socialist who wants to take what belongs to everyone else so you can feel superior against those who do not believe as you do? Its funny, what do you risk in spreading everyone's wealth?




You are being emotive, you cannot even talk without little flutters of anger sputtering through the crevices of the words you type. You are so ambitious to be right when you aren't even on the same page as me that its a whimsical joke. You remind me a lot of myself when I was in my late teens and early 20s. How old are you also?

Bill honestly your just trying to point out faults of others that isn't there.

You should know by now that INFJs and N's in general don't fall for parlor tricks.

I think you need to stop pointing fingers at others and examine what your saying yourself.

This post of yours... my my... how do I put this delicately. Did you ever see Conan the Destroyer it was part 2. Remember the end when Conan kills the big monster Daggoth and then his little wussy partner comes over after its already slain and stabs it with his dagger and the music mimics Conans? That's what your post reminded me of. No real worthwhile attempt to make any serious point... just meaningless verbal masturbation. So you will have to excuse me if I dont take it seriously. OK?

Don't call me a pussy bill. Cause I surely I'm not some wimp who is here capitalize on another persons post. I agree with them and thats not something I feel is wrong.

Don't worry I don't care if you don't take me seriously. That doesn't offend me. Becasue realistically you don't even understand your own view point. Nor the that your the one committing fallacies of logic to make your point. And what your accusing of others. So no that doesn't bother me. Becasue you essentially undermining yourself. And in doing so you wreaked your argument

 

[Creon]

Yes middle class families can provide for their families. Middle class families are also in a very precarious position. Many if not most live paycheck to paycheck. I dislike that insecurity personally. And who is to say what is excess? The path of excess leads to the palace of wisdom, how can we know whats enough until we had too much? I am not talking about gold plated tooth brushes and designer label diapers, but lets not pretend raising children would be MUCH easier and probably MORE enjoyable if you didnt have to work 40-60 hours a week only to see them raised by strangers at school and day care. The wealthy can afford to not go to work every day and spend more time with thier children. Thats what I want. I will admit to 1 thing, when it comes to my family I am VERY selfish. I wouldnt have children unless I could spend as much time as possible with them.

As for money working for me, I meant passive or residual income. For example people go into real estate, they spend 1 million to buy land and build a small condo complex, then they sell or rent the units out to other people, the other people pay the loans off with thier mortgages for me and I live on the residual income. Now Imagine if you have 5 or 6 of these buildings... now your job consists basically of collecting payment from the people who work for you and run your assets. Instead of spending my time in an office, I can now spend it elsewhere. With my family for example.

Effort and work are core beliefs for me, but I am not stupid, Intellect and Ambition are as well.

You work hard up front to set up a system, the system works then you work easy and enjoy yourself while the system you put into place works. You never heard the saying, work smarter, not harder?

Hmmm. So although you believe hard work is important, your life's goal is essentialy to avoid work, trhough quick wit and intelect, and live a life filled with material possessions that offer to you pleasure, even if you yourself do not know where to stop, since excess cannot be defined . And since you personally dislike insecurity, you will spent money to make you feel secure, even if you don't know to what extend that might reach. And even though others may be suffering next to you, you understand that they did not display your intellect or wit and hence they should suffer. You can correct me here. That is just an assumption.

In other words, you do not believe that work is so important, but instead to beat the system and get out of work so that you can live what you consider it to be the top of the world (free time with your family surrounded by material possessions). Am I correct?

 

[Satya]

According to you maybe. Thinking your belief is all there is, is another form of egotism.

Wait! How is believing that people should seek success in order to help others the same as exaggerated self importance? Do you even know the definition of egotism?

Where? Time and time again I have stated that the society in which I live was set up so that people can become rich and successful, In fact I think I even went as far as to say the founders set it up that way on purpose. I think you are just projecting.

This society was set up by people who felt that the only people who deserve the opportunity to be successful were white, male property owners. Your historical argument doesn't win any points for you unless you are arguing that it should be fair for you to subjugate women and enslave Africans.

Yes, I am an American. And those things are the most important things in the world. What good is health if you are not free to enjoy it? And this is 1 fraction of who I am, are you dull sighted enough to not see that much at least? Or are you just a political socialist who wants to take what belongs to everyone else so you can feel superior against those who do not believe as you do? Its funny, what do you risk in spreading everyone's wealth?

Actually, I'm a rhizome libertarian. I don't fall in the traditional economic spectrum. Do you realize how hypocritical you come across when you judge people simply by labels when at the same time you are demanding that people judge you as the individual you are?

You are being emotive, you cannot even talk without little flutters of anger sputtering through the crevices of the words you type. You are so ambitious to be right when you aren't even on the same page as me that its a whimsical joke.

If you say so. I could care less whether or not you agree with me. It's your life and you can live it however you want.

You remind me a lot of myself when I was in my late teens and early 20s. How old are you also?

Seriously?
I smell an ad hominem and I'm old enough to find it ironic.

 

[Billy]

Hmmm. So although you believe hard work is important, your life's goal is essentialy to avoid work, trhough quick wit and intelect, and live a life filled with material possessions that offer to you pleasure, even if you yourself do not know where to stop, since excess cannot be defined . And since you personally dislike insecurity, you will spent money to make you feel secure, even if you don't know to what extend that might reach. And even though others may be suffering next to you, you understand that they did not display your intellect or wit and hence they should suffer. You can correct me here. That is just an assumption.

In other words, you do not believe that work is so important, but instead to beat the system and get out of work so that you can live what you consider it to be the top of the world (free time with your family surrounded by material possessions). Am I correct?

Essentially you are correct but in a very unflattering way, but you make a few mistakes and wrong assumptions.

1. how can you not believe in hard work when its a part of what you must do to meet an end? The goal of work is to get something done, isnt it Force X Distance = work on a basic level? Didnt mankind invent levers, pulleys and other simple machines to make said work easier? I am trying to figure out what exactly youre trying to tell me about myself that is wrong. That because I believe in working smarter in favor of working harder that I am somehow bad or evil, or selfish or whatever?

2. Why beat the system when you can create the system? I mean honestly If you want to go work in the fields for 12 hours a day god bless you someone needs to do it until we create robots that can. I on the other hand do not set up my time in such an old fashioned way. I would much rather set up a system in where I control many levers to many cogs, rather than to be one of the cogs. Do you know what I mean?

As for people suffering etc, hey we all make our own way. If I find someone hurt in my path, I help them. If someone needs food and they ask me, I feed them. If someone needs a hand up, I look at thier life and see what I can see and help them figure out a way to elevate themselves.

But to even PRETEND that I am somehow morally bankrupt because I do not want what Is mine stolen by those who havent earned it, well thats just plain old idiocy. Stop making assumptions about me and ask more questions if you really want to know... otherwise quit the charade and just go to name calling like many of the others here.

 

[TheLastMohican]

Actually, I'm a rhizome libertarian.

Could you elaborate on that a bit, especially the origin of the term?

 

[Billy]

Wait! How is believing that people should seek success in order to help others the same as exaggerated self importance? Do you even know the definition of egotism?

In itself it is not, however believing that anyone who doesn't subscribe to your opinion (and its just an opinion) is wrong or an asshole, or is whatever whatever, is egotism.

This society was set up by people who felt that the only people who deserve the opportunity to be successful were white, male property owners. Your historical argument doesn't win any points for you unless you are arguing that it should be fair for you to subjugate women and enslave Africans.

Hindsight is 20/20 if that's what they truly believed for the government they would have worded it that way. But the constitution says Man not White man. They knew the time they lived in and wisely didn't try to pass off a radical idea on people unable at that time in history to accept it. But they left it up to future generations to fix those issues, which we have been trying to do. That was the beauty in the way they handled it. I am surprised you didnt learn that yet.

Actually, I'm a rhizome libertarian. I don't fall in the traditional economic spectrum. Do you realize how hypocritical you come across when you judge people simply by labels when at the same time you are demanding that people judge you as the individual you are?

lol I was simply being sarcastic, pity you didnt pick it up. I told you up front I dont judge people by lables. Are you the victim now? The only person here I see tossing around lables and meaning them has been you really.

If you say so. I could care less whether or not you agree with me. It's your life and you can live it however you want.

Thats all us evil capitalists ever wanted. Thank you for giving me the right to live the way I wanted.

Seriously?
I smell an ad hominem and I'm old enough to find it ironic.

NOW you are worried about ad hominem? You jest! How old by the way I am just curious.

 

[Satya]

1. how can you not believe in hard work when its a part of what you must do to meet an end? The goal of work is to get something done, isnt it Force X Distance = work on a basic level? Didnt mankind invent levers, pulleys and other simple machines to make said work easier? I am trying to figure out what exactly youre trying to tell me about myself that is wrong. That because I believe in working smarter in favor of working harder that I am somehow bad or evil, or selfish or whatever?

There is a difference between making work easier and making it more efficient. Man strives to make work more efficient so he can get more work done, not so that he can get the same amount of work done with less effort. Successful people are generally masters of efficiency because they want to maximize the amount of work they can do, not because they want to work less. I would say the latter "smart" worker is lazy.

As for people suffering etc, hey we all make our own way. If I find someone hurt in my path, I help them. If someone needs food and they ask me, I feed them. If someone needs a hand up, I look at thier life and see what I can see and help them figure out a way to elevate themselves

If someone asks for affordable health care, you say they should die because you don't want to pay higher taxes.

But to even PRETEND that I am somehow morally bankrupt because I do not want what Is mine stolen by those who havent earned it, well thats just plain old idiocy. Stop making assumptions about me and ask more questions if you really want to know... otherwise quit the charade and just go to name calling like many of the others here.

What you have earned is yours. Normal people are happy to share what they have earned with others who need it. However, the egotist thinks that just because they earned it, they somehow have no reason to share it.

 

[Azure_Knight]

I have some questions that I wanted to pose. Is this thread a debate? If so, is it either of these or is it something else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate#Other_forms_of_debate

Online debating
With the increasing popularity and availability of the Internet, differing opinions arise frequently. Though they are often expressed via flaming and other forms of argumentation, which consist primarily of assertions, there do exist formalized debating websites, typically in the form of online forums or bulletin boards. The debate style is interesting, as research and well thought out points and counterpoints are possible because of the obvious lack of time restraints (although practical time restraints usually are in effect, e.g., no more than 5 days between posts, etc.).Forums are Moderated and welcome online debaters in a friendly format so all may speak their pros and cons. Many people use this to strengthen their points, or drop their weaker opinions on things, many times for debate in formal debates (such as the ones listed above) or for fun arguments with friends. The ease-of-use and friendly environments make new debaters welcome to share their opinions in many communities.
Also, while forums are interesting, live video conference debating has taken a recent jump in popularity. The leading website is http://worldforensicsnetwork.com which hosts live debates in a video conference room with up to 6 live feeds. Most competitive college programs participate on the website, and it will soon be one of the standard forums that college debate teams use to compete in parliamentary debate, NFA-LD, CEDA, and individual events.

Classical debate
Classical debate is a relatively new debate format, first created and primarily practiced in the state of Minnesota. It was formed as an alternative to Policy debating. Certain judges and coaches felt that the development of Policy had led it to become an extremely specialized form of debate with heavy reliance on near-incomprehensible speed in speaking and less emphasis on real-world arguments in favor of "strategic" arguments that often bordered on the near-absurd. With a structure similar to that of Policy, Classical debate emphasizes logic and real-world discussion. For this reason, it is often nicknamed "Policy Lite".
As opposed to Policy, where each Affirmative proposes a new plan, classical debate is simpler: one resolution is chosen at the beginning of the season, which the Affirmative affirms and Negative negates. The emphasis on depth instead of breadth provided by the restriction can make for interesting rounds that often come down to arguments that might otherwise pale in other formats.

 

[Satya]

In itself it is not, however believing that anyone who doesn't subscribe to your opinion (and its just an opinion) is wrong or an asshole, or is whatever whatever, is egotism.

What opinion? It's what I have learned from experience. It's what famed millionaires like Andrew Carnegie have taught. It's the reality that humans are social animals that live in groups, and by contributing to those groups we find our place. It's our biology and ecology. I don't think you are an egotist for ignoring it, I think you are an egotist for proclaiming it wrong by asserting that your own self interest somehow have nothing to do with the benefit of society as a whole.

Hindsight is 20/20 if that's what they truly believed for the government they would have worded it that way. But the constitution says Man not White man.

The original Constitution said that a slave is 1/3 of a man. Want to try again?

They knew the time they lived in and wisely didn't try to pass off a radical idea on people unable at that time in history to accept it. But they left it up to future generations to fix those issues, which we have been trying to do.

By doing things like free slaves, giving women the right to vote, providing health care, etc.

That was the beauty in the way they handled it. I am surprised you didnt learn that yet.

I'm surprised that you think comments like these do anything but provide evidence that you are an egotist.

lol I was simply being sarcastic, pity you didnt pick it up. I told you up front I dont judge people by lables. Are you the victim now? The only person here I see tossing around lables and meaning them has been you really.

Would you like me to tell you how many times you have called people "socialists" in this thread? No fewer than 9 times! Were those all sarcastic?

Thats all us evil capitalists ever wanted. Thank you for giving me the right to live the way I wanted.

I never have to give you what you were born with. Frankly, I don't know why you denote yourself as "evil"? Are you trying to portray yourself as some sort of victim? Wow, the evidence for egotism is really piling up.

NOW you are worried about ad hominem? You jest! How old by the way I am just curious.

Old enough to know that age has little relevance to reason.

I have six years of college education. How about we leave it at that?

 

[Creon]

Essentially you are correct but in a very unflattering way, but you make a few mistakes and wrong assumptions.

1. how can you not believe in hard work when its a part of what you must do to meet an end? The goal of work is to get something done, isnt it Force X Distance = work on a basic level? Didnt mankind invent levers, pulleys and other simple machines to make said work easier? I am trying to figure out what exactly youre trying to tell me about myself that is wrong. That because I believe in working smarter in favor of working harder that I am somehow bad or evil, or selfish or whatever?

2. Why beat the system when you can create the system? I mean honestly If you want to go work in the fields for 12 hours a day god bless you someone needs to do it until we create robots that can. I on the other hand do not set up my time in such an old fashioned way. I would much rather set up a system in where I control many levers to many cogs, rather than to be one of the cogs. Do you know what I mean?

As for people suffering etc, hey we all make our own way. If I find someone hurt in my path, I help them. If someone needs food and they ask me, I feed them. If someone needs a hand up, I look at thier life and see what I can see and help them figure out a way to elevate themselves.

But to even PRETEND that I am somehow morally bankrupt because I do not want what Is mine stolen by those who havent earned it, well thats just plain old idiocy. Stop making assumptions about me and ask more questions if you really want to know... otherwise quit the charade and just go to name calling like many of the others here.

I understand your hostility, seeing as how everyone attacks you for your beliefs. You must understand that the modern capitalist (for that seems to be what you trully want to become) seems heartless to others. You should be able to realise as much.

Wrong? Wrong and right is defined by the society every person lives in. In your society, that is, the American Capitalist society, your way appears to be the right way. If you lived in my society, then the notion of excess would be different. And your understanding of material possessions would be different.

But, since I am a political scientist in part, I would like to say some things to you. I am not doudting your morality. Personally, I believe that you are confused when it comes to politics. You are not certain what to believe. Of course, most people today are confused. That is because they approach politics and morals based to what other people tell them, instead of conducting their own research. Some do so because they do not have the leisure to do otherwise, while other people simply do not care to see a different ideology.

I would like to tell you that in order to choose an ideology, one must first understand the nature of every ideology present in his society. If you are not fully aware of the ideologies surrounding you, then you do not choose anything, you merely accept what society pushes to your face. I myself have not yet chosen a specific ideology to believe in. Experience is important, of course, but knowledge is invaluable when it comes to politics. I believe many Americans believe that socialism equals Soviet Union, an absurd idea that stems from ignorance and government brainwashing policies.

You see, your way of life and your desires could easily be the same in other systems as well, which present many socialist elements, like for example, Sweeden's system. That is the point of my posts. I did not mean to insult you. Forgive me if I did so.

 

[BickByro]

One more detail I'm confused on:

Billy, you came from a fatherless, drug-addled family of white people who lived in the projects and all ended up becoming millionaires?

 

[Satya]

Could you elaborate on that a bit, especially the origin of the term?

I concocted it off of the Jeff Vale essay.

http://jeffvail.net/atheoryofpower.pdf

Replacing centralized, hierarchical authority with a rhizome structure.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I concocted it off of the Jeff Vale essay.

http://jeffvail.net/atheoryofpower.pdf

Replacing centralized, hierarchical authority with a rhizome structure.

Is there by any chance a more common term for that same position?

 

[Satya]

Is there by any chance a more common term for that same position?

That particular essay is only 5 years old. I would say it is a mixture of neotribalism, memetics, communitarianism, and environmentalism.

 

[mallory knox]

I think I am done with talking to you... you are so angry, incompetent, wrong, loud mouthed, ignorant that its not even worth the mental stamina to even try to educate you out of your slovenly wrongness.

I don't judge people for how they get to where they need to be. But if I was living in a ghetto surrounded by misery and the only way I could get out was by selling weed to rich kids in the burbs you bet your goddamn ass I would do it. That might be where you went wrong in YOUR life. You seem like a reactionary type of person... maybe you should try ACTION once and a while.

Your statement about someone getting rich and other getting poorer, is just a badge of achievement to the ignorance you shine like an anti-beacon. I feel bad for anyone who has the misfortune of ever listening to the gloomy mournful tripe that you spew about society. Good day sir.

mental stamina? seriously?

anyway, if you were selling drugs chances are you

 

[mallory knox]

so you

 

[Shai Gar]

all actions have at one time, in some culture, been a crime.