Health Care Reform Defeated

Companies can but won't its about greed and money.

And the reason people continue to support being raped by everyone form the government to power elite is because people are too afraid and stupid to think on there own.

I'm sick of the USA's lack of progress due to fear and stupidity.

The people will continue to be mistreated and ignored until they wake up and pressure the government to do its job.

When we realize socialism is not evil and being left wing isn't a crime then many be we can get universal health care but as of right now I knew it would be a stretch.

 

As much as I dislike government meddling in such industries, I was rather fond of the public option idea. It would have been a way of guaranteeing essential health care to citizens without having a government monopoly on anything, allowing the medical practitioners to continue pursuing a variety of treatments and research. It was reminiscent of Milton Friedman's negative income tax, in fact.

What we have coming to us now is a long and tedious deepening of the divide between those who lament of the evils of profit-driven medicine and those who live in fear of anything resembling the socialized variety. Without a meaningful compromise in the works, Republicans will blame the shortcomings of health care on whatever changes the Democrats manage to make, and the Democrats will increasingly see total socialization of the industry as the only way to get it back under control.

While it's true that other industrialized nations are able to provide universal health care — complete with government-employed physicians and government-funded research — at significantly lower cost than our own government is even now saddled with, I think we could do better just by cutting back the regulations we have already set up. A lot of pointless restrictions on medical practice serve to drive up the costs by complicating things. For example, the dominance of large drug companies is greatly enhanced by the requirements of the FDA, which lags on approving products that don't have enough dollars backing them up. (And we complain about the corruption that inevitably arises from this.) Ludicrous ideas like the requirements of prescriptions for regular dietary supplements (vitamins) and the criminalization of professional medical help in home births are signs of a government-industry relationship that results in increasingly narrow methods of care, requiring large sums of money for relatively simple problems that could be very easily dealt with in a free medical market.

 

I don't know. I would have to research it and look over it. I'm also interested in what the public would consider to be affordable and adequate medical coverage.

Oversight comes to mind for insurance companies, but a plan for competition? Isn't competition what free market is driven by? Also, what would constitute ethical business practices in insurance sales?

I think that healthcare has a great number of issues to consider (including the physical and mental health of the population itself). I personally cannot separate the issue of healthcare from several considerations: social justice (and issues of morality), economics, politics, special interests (if any are involved), government, oversight and enforcement, etc. If we are talking about a plan in theory, it would be one thing. But to put it into practice is more than just the plan itself... hence the considerations that I have listed.

Although I consider healthcare to be a privilege (and not a basic human right) I find that I have great difficulty in separating my own morality and views of social justice from the equation. Even if I add those into the mix, new questions pop up.

For instance: should my views of morality or social justice be considered for public policy? Should my own views be forced onto others? I think that the answer is no. I also wonder how much each member of the forum approaches this issue in terms of social justice and morality when considering the issue. I think that more communication over such issues might reveal that we all may have very different ideas as to how these issues are dealt with.

I don't know. I think rising college costs and other things will cause more strain on the middle class, though healthcare could make or break a middle class family (in the case of a death in the family).

I have already talked a little bit about the misinformation war that was waged on this issue. I think that both sides of the debate have used stare tactics and misinformation to sell their cause.

I wouldn't agree that one hands their life or welfare over to private insurance, but I would agree that the average American is terrified government involvement in certain issues.

I was meaning to post on it, but there are some things to consider when you talk about uninsured/underinsured. The number is too large, but I will find the source which this claim is based on about it before getting into it.

I will agree that it most likely is an issue of money when it comes to companies. It's also about protecting the companies' best interest. Business (and government for that matter) usually does what is in its own best interests.

There's also a lot of bad information out there. I also think that critical thinking is discouraged in schools to some extent. Memorization and recitation of facts seems to pass for education.

I share the sentiment. There are many things wrong with this country that seem like they will not change (at least in my lifetime).

And what would be the stimulus for people to wake up and get the government to do its job?

I don't think socialism is inherently evil. I also don't think that being from the left wing is a crime either. But I'm not sure UHC is the panacea to all of HC's (healthcare's) problems.

Before someone makes the argument that Canada's system is better, I found an article that talks a little bit about what Canada is going through. Food for thought if you will.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu


Also, TLM when you say prescriptions for vitamins are you talking about certain strength or something else? The FDA does not have to approve dietary supplements, which can lead to problems. Some of these problems include inconsistency in the amount of active ingredient(s) per dosage form, other ingredients being added or mixed in with preparations, and other issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_supplement#United_Stat

 

Why are you speaking of this in the future tense rather than past?

(1) Just that stupid. (2) See 1. (3) See 1.

SOLID GOLD! It's about time somebody dealt with this fiction...

 

This should be made into a thread. Go on Satya, I know you can do it.

 

Speaking of free markets, America has such a free market that Obama has spent 15 times the amount of dollars in circulation at the time the first bill was passed on stimilus bills, or roughly 16 trillion dollars to "stimulate" the economy.

This new health insurance is peanuts in comparison, if you're arguing against based on economical principles. And you can't really argue against universal health care based on ethics...

 

once again, greed wins.

 

America didn't become stupid, America has always been stupid. America just started being manipulated by corporations who have their own profits at heart as opposed to by their government which theoretically has the interest of the people at heart. Of course, the modern government reflects this. Which is why I voted for Obama for "change". Maybe he should remember the campaign. That's not change, that's just more of the same.

 

Excellent! Good news.

 

America didn't become stupid, America has always been stupid. America just started being manipulated by corporations who have their own profits at heart as opposed to by their government which theoretically has the interest of the people at heart. Of course, the modern government reflects this. Which is why I voted for Obama for "change". Maybe he should remember the campaign. That's not change, that's just more of the same.

 

Obama should remember that he campaigned for this on the campaign trail. The American People knew what they were getting when they voted him in. Therefore the American People want UHC.

Obama ought to remember that, and ignore congress.

 

Exactly. He's banking on the fact that liberal democrats don't have anyone else to vote for next election, so it doesn't really matter if he alienates them as opposed to conservative leaning independents. Unfortunately, his calculation isn't taking into account the fact that his mystique is seriously diminished by being a pussy.

 

Its times like this that I smile, my fellow anti socialist compatriots across the country rise to defeat clearly bad legislation and direction by just holding forums and discussing it. Democracy in action.

By the way America has ALWAYS been controlled by corporations, its kind of what America was invented for. You know the founders were all businessmen right? You know that the majority of the grievances against the King of England back then were financial in nature right? No Taxation without representation and all that. The revolution was not only a human rights campaign for American citizens at the time, it was a capitalist campaign to throw off the last vestiges of the old ways with a ruling class by blood. The new ruling class rules through business as it should be. Its inherently more fair than the nobility. Even the poorest man can begin a company and become rich.

 

How does he ignore congress? The President doesn't make legislation.

 

Very easy, by rushing legislation through like bush did with the first patriot act.

 

He cant rush it through, he is not a congressional member nor a senator. He cannot do anything except let them handle it and encourage them. They are not doing it because there is great resentment against it, not just from us whacked out conservatives but from middle class Americans all across the country. Including (very important) Union Workers who already have much better health coverage than they will get if they go socialized.

 

You don't think like a strategist.

You get a pet senator to put it through, at a time when there's no chance to read it before voting, and you attach it to an innocuous bill that they don't give a shit about.

 

I know how they do it, and they tried. His pet senator didn't come through because Nancy Pelosi has a massive wang for control. And she is the queen bee as far as legislation is going to go. I think Obama should take it a step further and have her removed from office somehow, maybe accuse her of socialist treason, what with her getting all those state contracts for her pet district company and her husband. I love to watch Democrats fight one and other.