[PAX] Gun control

[bamf]

Yeah, it prettymuch does.

Manslaughter would be unintentional killing.

Well do they have a category for manslaughter? No. Also, according to wikipedia, homicide isn't murder. Thus one has to ask what types of death are considered homicide in the stats. Were does manslaughter fit in the categories? Homicide or accidental?

 

[bamf]

In the legal sense, manslaughter is part of the broader term homicide.

 

[BenW]

Well do they have a category for manslaughter? No. Also, according to wikipedia, homicide isn't murder. Thus one has to ask what types of death are considered homicide in the stats. Were does manslaughter fit in the categories? Homicide or accidental?

I think one only "has" to ask this if they are desperately nitpicking, but I digress.
Accidental, obviously. That would be the definition of manslaughter.
Wouldn't you agree?

 

[bamf]

I think one only "has" to ask this if they are desperately nitpicking, but I digress.
Accidental, obviously. That would be the definition of manslaughter.
Wouldn't you agree?

Is it obvious? Because legally, manslaughter is a form of homicide.

 

[BenW]

I'm willing to take a leap of faith and assume the aggregators of the aforementioned data went for the spirit of the law, rather than the letter.

Manslaughter is an accidental killing, period.

 

[VH]

Manslaughter is an accidental killing, period.

Manslaughter is accidental killing, charged to a person responsible for the accident.

 

[BenW]

That would seem to be the point of the charge, wouldn't it?
Would make much sense charging the victim, now...

 

[bamf]

I'm willing to take a leap of faith and assume the aggregators of the aforementioned data went for the spirit of the law, rather than the letter.

Manslaughter is an accidental killing, period.

So you'll chalk up voluntary manslaughter with involuntary manslaughter?

It just goes to show that it's hard to derive hard facts from the data provided. More information is needed before you can justly say that all the homicides were intentional, that all manslaughter is an accident, and that no unintentional (like hunting accidents) shootings were included under homicide.

 

[BenW]

So you'll chalk up voluntary manslaughter with involuntary manslaughter?

No, but it's pretty hard to imagine how one could be charged with voluntary manslaughter for accidentally shooting somebody.

It just goes to show that it's hard to derive hard facts from the data provided. More information is needed before you can justly say that all the homicides were intentional, that all manslaughter is an accident, and that no unintentional (like hunting accidents) shootings were included under homicide.

It is however, damn easy to discern that accidental firearm deaths do NOT outweigh intentional ones, which was the point.

Feel free to present any data to the contrary.

 

[VH]

No, but it's pretty hard to imagine how one could be charged with voluntary manslaughter for accidentally shooting somebody.

It's voluntary when they fired the gun on purpose, just not intending to shoot anyone - hence the accident.

 

[BenW]

I don't think many people would qualify that as an "accident" by common definition...
I guess some freak example would be on a movie set or something.

 

[bamf]

No, but it's pretty hard to imagine how one could be charged with voluntary manslaughter for accidentally shooting somebody.

It is however, damn easy to discern that accidental firearm deaths do NOT outweigh intentional ones, which was the point.

Feel free to present any data to the contrary.

And yet we have still to determine what they mean by accidental. You consider manslaughter an accident, legally it's considered homicide. It still doesn't prove anything.

Accidental firearm deaths to what sense? That a gun went off and shot somebody without anyone pulling the trigger? A kid accidentally shooting a friend (in this case it's accidental homicide, possibly charged with manslaughter, but where does it fall under the two categories in the table?). I believe that is the type (accidental shooting) that Arby was talking about, and which your table shows nothing to prove or disprove.

I'm not saying that she's right or wrong, just that you haven't proved her to be either way.

 

[BenW]

And yet we have still to determine what they mean by accidental. You consider manslaughter an accident, legally it's considered homicide. It still doesn't prove anything.

If the people collecting the data didn't get the "accidental" category from manslaughter charges, exactly where do you think it came from...?

Accidental firearm deaths to what sense? That a gun went off and shot somebody without anyone pulling the trigger? A kid accidentally shooting a friend (in this case it's accidental homicide, possibly charged with manslaughter, but where does it fall under the two categories in the table?). I believe that is the type (accidental shooting) that Arby was talking about, and which your table shows nothing to prove or disprove.

I'm not saying that she's right or wrong, just that you haven't proved her to be either way.

Accidental gun deaths nationwide are about ~1500 year...
You mean to tell me you don't think there are more than 1500 people a year, killed in the US by firearms, who didn't have a gun to fire back with?

Get real.

 

[bamf]

If the people collecting the data didn't get the "accidental" category from manslaughter charges, exactly where do you think it came from...?

Accidental gun deaths nationwide are about ~1500 year...
You mean to tell me you don't think there are more than 1500 people a year, killed in the US by firearms, who didn't have a gun to fire back with?

Get real.

So now you're going to go and change your tune, and drop everything about your table?

And still, what does accidental contain? Is involuntary manslaughter an accident, or homicide, and where did you get your statistic?

In all honesty, our thoughts don't change the facts, which I have yet seen presented. It doesn't matter what I think, what matters is what really happens.


*edit, well seeing as manslaughter is homicide, I'm guessing accidental came from things such as unintentional gun discharges and the what not (as in a gun falls off a table). But still, present the facts and stop assuming, or else your arguement holds no ground.

 

[BenW]

So now you're going to go and change your tune, and drop everything about your table?

If I have done so, I certainly haven't noticed... Wherein did I drop the table?
The table was a comparison of rates per capita, for certain years.
The 1500 statistic is an average yearly rate for accidental gun deaths.

And still, what does accidental contain? Is involuntary manslaughter an accident, or homicide, and where did you get your statistic?

You tell me, since you seem to be so interested in it.
I think "accidental" is a pretty clear-cut definition.
Statisticians do put a decent amount of thought into the data they present, mmkay.

In all honesty, our thoughts don't change the facts, which I have yet seen presented. It doesn't matter what I think, what matters is what really happens.

The facts can be interpreted many ways, but only one correct way.

I've cited two statistics, and if you want, I can find a source for the latter one.

 

[VH]

I don't think many people would qualify that as an "accident" by common definition...
I guess some freak example would be on a movie set or something.

Or cleaning a gun, having the gun misfire, having the gun discharge accidentally - such as when children are playing with a gun, not knowing it was loaded, etc.

There are a multitude of ways manslaughter with which a firearm qualifies as voluntary and accidental.

Involuntary and accidental includes dropping the gun and having it go off, a richochet, or handing the gun to someone and getting your sleeve caught in the trigger.

 

[BenW]

Or cleaning a gun, having the gun misfire, having the gun discharge accidentally - such as when children are playing with a gun, not knowing it was loaded, etc.

There are a multitude of ways manslaughter with which a firearm qualifies as voluntary and accidental.

That example would be involuntary. Voluntary manslaughter charges are given only in "heat of passion" type cases, unless I'm mistaken.

I was sloppy with my definition I guess.
I don't think you can reasonably call voluntary manslaughter charges accidental.
I should have made the distinction.

 

[bamf]

lulz

If I have done so, I certainly haven't noticed... Wherein did I drop the table?
The table was a comparison of rates per capita, for certain years.
The 1500 statistic is an average yearly rate for accidental gun deaths.

You tell me, since you seem to be so interested in it.
I think "accidental" is a pretty clear-cut definition.
Statisticians do put a decent amount of thought into the data they present, mmkay.

The facts can be interpreted many ways, but only one correct way.

You still haven't proven what they mean by homicide or accidental. You've given your assumptions plenty of times, but never what the terms actually include. I've shown that manslaughter (which can be voluntary or involuntary) is legally considered homicide. You say that they would have included involuntary manslaughter in the accident column, thus going against legal definitions, and only by your definition.

Yeah, statisticians put a lot of thought into data they present, but when there isn't a description of what the data pertains to (in this case accidental homicide), we can't justifiably pull any conclusions from it.


Edit to your edit...yeah you've given statistics, but you haven't been able to prove what they encompass. I'm not saying that you're wrong in thinking that intentional outnumbers the unintentional, but that your stats haven't prove it because it's uncertain as to what the stats pertain to (in this case, accidental homicide)

 

[VH]

That example would be involuntary. Voluntary manslaughter charges are given only in "heat of passion" type cases, unless I'm mistaken.

I was sloppy with my definition I guess.
I don't think you can reasonably call voluntary manslaughter charges accidental.
I should have made the distinction.

Depends on the state. I work with an attorney. Heat of passion homicide is Murder in the 3rd degree in my state. Voluntary is willfully causing the act that caused the accident - implying irresponsibility. Involuntarily is not willfully causing the act that caused the accident - applying fault but no irresponsibility, and is generally reserved for negligence and determining who's insurance has to pay for the damages.

 

[arbygil]

It really all depends on who you are and where you live, IMO. The top three injuries/deaths in the United States since 1998 have consistently been motor vehicles, firearms, and poisonings. But the order varies depending on your state and race.

Regardless, I feel (me, not stats) that guns in my home would be a very, very bad idea. And I don't want them near me.