Gay Marriage: Yes or No

[Shai Gar]

The Church is a private club with it's own rules. The government should not be involved in its decision making process. Nor should the populace. If the populace does not believe the same things that the church does, they should form their own religion. Homosexuality is a sin in the Monotheistic Religions. If homosexuals don't like it, fuck em. They're free to form their own religion.

Civil Unions are Government Mandated, and should be open to all. They should provide protections under Civil Union, not Marriage. After all, Marriage is in the eyes of god, Civil Unions, in the eyes of the Government.

 

[slant]

The Church is a private club with it's own rules. The government should not be involved in its decision making process. Nor should the populace. If the populace does not believe the same things that the church does, they should form their own religion. Homosexuality is a sin in the Monotheistic Religions. If homosexuals don't like it, fuck em. They're free to form their own religion.

Civil Unions are Government Mandated, and should be open to all. They should provide protections under Civil Union, not Marriage. After all, Marriage is in the eyes of god, Civil Unions, in the eyes of the Government.

THIS is what I've been tellin everybody!!!

 

[Shai Gar]

People are morons who will only choose the options given to them, rather than attempt to understand the issues or develop their own choices.

 

[slant]

it's fun to tease them anyway.

 

[Satya]

I'm getting to the point where I could care less whether or not gays have the right to marry. Heterosexuals have already screwed it up beyond all repair. I look to the heteros who tout their sacred institution while they cheat on their partners, divorce, and remarry. I love the hypocrisy of Bible touting serial monogamists who preach how their marriage is a religious institution while forgetting how they have already soiled it with their adultery and divorce; which were firmly condemned by their so called Savior. It disgusts me, that they waste effort and money keeping same sex couples from enjoying the rights and benefits of an institution that they themselves have already reduced to a joke. They forget what marriage represents is a life long commitment to a partner and the family built with that partner. Instead, they enjoy the prospect of regarding families headed by same sex couples as inferior. How much pleasure they get out of informing the children of gay parents how inferior their family is in the eyes of God. How wonderful they feel letting the world know how inferior the love between a same sex family is and how undeserving it is of an institution that they, the traditionalists, have turned putrid with their own sins. Why would I want an institution which have become nothing but a hypocrisy?

 

[HaHa]

I'm getting to the point where I could care less whether or not gays have the right to marry. Heterosexuals have already screwed it up beyond all repair. I look to the heteros who tout their sacred institution while they cheat on their partners, divorce, and remarry. I love the hypocrisy of Bible touting serial monogamists who preach how their marriage is a religious institution while forgetting how they have already soiled it with their adultery and divorce; which were firmly condemned by their so called Savior. It disgusts me, that they waste effort and money keeping same sex couples from enjoying the rights and benefits of an institution that they themselves have already reduced to a joke. They forget what marriage represents is a life long commitment to a partner and the family built with that partner. Instead, they enjoy the prospect of regarding families headed by same sex couples as inferior. How much pleasure they get out of informing the children of gay parents how inferior their family is in the eyes of God. How wonderful they feel letting the world know how inferior the love between a same sex family is and how undeserving it is of an institution that they, the traditionalists, have turned putrid with their own sins. Why would I want an institution which have become nothing but a hypocrisy?

To go to that funny place where they play harps in the sky.

Excellent post by the way.

 

[slant]

Satya, automatic win.

Good point.

 

[GaiaGraha]

As I understand it, marriage is purely religious. The concept was a bond between a couple and God, a threeway thing, hence it had to take place in a church. And that is the reason why divorces didn't used to happen when it was taken seriously in a religious way. "What God has brought together let no man lay asunder". It wasn't the place of the humans to make that decision, since the fact that they were getting married was an act of God. Problems have started to happen when people have made it a humanistic matter.

Sorry but you are wrong.
You might want to look into the truth- historically, sociologically, etc.

Marriage wasn't a religious matter until about couple hundred years ago.
Marriage before was a matter of joining, a matter of business.
Examples:
I'll give you a bunch of sheep so I can marry your daughter and she can help me run my farm.
I am a cobbler, you are from a family of cobblers- let's get married and make beautiful shoes together.
I am a noble- but my stupid parents spent all of our money, you are a wealthy merchant- let's get married so you can give us a bunch of money and you can have a title.
We are royalty, our two countries have never got along- let's make our kids marry each other so everyone will no we are friends and our treaty will succeed.

ETC.

And there have always been problems.


I have really looked into this matter and I feel that gay marriage should be legal.
As far as homosexual couples having children- I really don't see the problem.
I have read MANY psychological studies that show that there is absolutely no harmful effects on children raised by gay parents. There is no altering of how their gender and sexuality develops.
It actually is better in some ways- those kids tend to be happier because there is less stress on them to fit a certain mold.

And when is comes to bullying:
Kids will always bully the kids that are different. If we showed how normal it was to have same-sex parents then there would not be teasing happening. And the more kids who have same-sex parents, the more normal it would be.

I think it is REALLY sad when people do not want to change for the better just because it might take a little work on their part, or just because it is different from what they are used to. What is everyone so afraid of?

 

[Shai Gar]

oh wow. how utterly wrong.

 

[Altruistic Muse]

Sorry but you are wrong.
You might want to look into the truth- historically, sociologically, etc.

Marriage wasn't a religious matter until about couple hundred years ago.
Marriage before was a matter of joining, a matter of business.
Examples:
I'll give you a bunch of sheep so I can marry your daughter and she can help me run my farm.
I am a cobbler, you are from a family of cobblers- let's get married and make beautiful shoes together.
I am a noble- but my stupid parents spent all of our money, you are a wealthy merchant- let's get married so you can give us a bunch of money and you can have a title.
We are royalty, our two countries have never got along- let's make our kids marry each other so everyone will no we are friends and our treaty will succeed.

ETC.

And there have always been problems.


I have really looked into this matter and I feel that gay marriage should be legal.
As far as homosexual couples having children- I really don't see the problem.
I have read MANY psychological studies that show that there is absolutely no harmful effects on children raised by gay parents. There is no altering of how their gender and sexuality develops.
It actually is better in some ways- those kids tend to be happier because there is less stress on them to fit a certain mold.

And when is comes to bullying:
Kids will always bully the kids that are different. If we showed how normal it was to have same-sex parents then there would not be teasing happening. And the more kids who have same-sex parents, the more normal it would be.

I think it is REALLY sad when people do not want to change for the better just because it might take a little work on their part, or just because it is different from what they are used to. What is everyone so afraid of?

This debate could go round forever! As I said before, a version of marriage probably did exist before Christianity, which was a union or bonding. In the same sense yes, dowries and status marriages would have been rife in the middle ages, because women were dependent on men and had far fewer rights. The marriage that I speak of is the sacrament of marriage, which is religious, and which depends on the baptism of both individuals etc. I guess it doesn't matter what the words are, there are still two different unions, one being religious and one being legal, which have somehow been merged. The religious and legal aspects should be separated and people should be able to choose which they like. Anyway, that's enough of that!

And yes I see what you're saying about the bullying, but I don't think it'll ever be able to stop fullstop because it simply involves so many different people and cultures, and would create a lot of hurt in the meantime. If it was an option it would be a good one.

 

[Shai Gar]

Never heard of Sarah?

 

[nfuerfuau3873]

I think "Gay Marriage" is a joke to be honest. Call me closed minded, I don't care, but I will give ground to my opinion.

Marriage was something invented by religious groups, to symbolise exclusivity between two people. The two people are specified by the religious groups as a male and a female.
The religions that put stock into "marriage" are homophobic, and therefore I think it is an insult, and a provocation for homosexual couples to ask to be "married". I think it invites hatred and scrutiny because it is controversial toward the organisation that put marriage in place. Christians don't want homosexuals... but homosexuals don't accept that and expect people to "accept them for who they want to be". Well that's fine and everything, but the pendulum swings both ways. In asking Christians to accept homosexuality, Christians should have the right to ask homosexuals to respect their beliefs and views and stay away from anything that the Christians institution developed.

However, I do believe that homosexual couples absolutely have a right to a civil ceremony. Civil services are not religious in any way. It is a lawful agreement that does the same job... just without all that religious hocus pocus that really amounts to a load of pointless words.
I don't see anything wrong with homosexual couples whatsoever, and I am 100% comfortable around homosexuals and I am not scared that they are going to start hitting on me, because with all my time spent around them, they are actually not really attracted to heterosexuals.

My opinion is this; "Gay 'marriage' is wrong because it provokes hatred and animosity in the society that gives stock to marriage. Gay 'civil ceremony' is absolutely fine and a right to everyone and shouldn't offend anyone because there are no religios conotations involved".

 

[nfuerfuau3873]

Sorry but you are wrong.
You might want to look into the truth- historically, sociologically, etc.

Marriage wasn't a religious matter until about couple hundred years ago.
Marriage before was a matter of joining, a matter of business.
Examples:
I'll give you a bunch of sheep so I can marry your daughter and she can help me run my farm.
I am a cobbler, you are from a family of cobblers- let's get married and make beautiful shoes together.
I am a noble- but my stupid parents spent all of our money, you are a wealthy merchant- let's get married so you can give us a bunch of money and you can have a title.
We are royalty, our two countries have never got along- let's make our kids marry each other so everyone will no we are friends and our treaty will succeed.

ETC.

And there have always been problems.


I have really looked into this matter and I feel that gay marriage should be legal.
As far as homosexual couples having children- I really don't see the problem.
I have read MANY psychological studies that show that there is absolutely no harmful effects on children raised by gay parents. There is no altering of how their gender and sexuality develops.
It actually is better in some ways- those kids tend to be happier because there is less stress on them to fit a certain mold.

And when is comes to bullying:
Kids will always bully the kids that are different. If we showed how normal it was to have same-sex parents then there would not be teasing happening. And the more kids who have same-sex parents, the more normal it would be.

I think it is REALLY sad when people do not want to change for the better just because it might take a little work on their part, or just because it is different from what they are used to. What is everyone so afraid of?

You may be right in the "matter of business" thing..... but you cannot deny that a church wedding is Christian... no matter what it was a couple of hundred years ago.
Christians don't like homosexuality (largely because they are ignorant) and so allowing it is an insult to them.

I am not Christian... but there are two sides to a coin. Whatever the 'original' thoughts behind it, it has developed into what it is NOW... and that is what is important.

A couple of hundred years ago we spoke a different kind of English entirely.
A couple of hundred years ago 'gay' meant happy.
A couple of hundred years ago the word 'computer' didn't exist.
A couple of hundred years ago... things were different... and this is a debate about modern society.

 

[Satya]

And yes I see what you're saying about the bullying, but I don't think it'll ever be able to stop fullstop because it simply involves so many different people and cultures, and would create a lot of hurt in the meantime. If it was an option it would be a good one.

No offense, but the bullying argument is nothing but a copout. Twenty years of same sex family research has demonstrated one reality. Despite the possibility of additional stressors to children, same sex couples raise children who are no better or worse adjusted than children raised by heterosexual couples.

http://www.ru.edu/faculty/rboughner/courses/Alternative%20activities/Children%20of%20gays.pdf

That is the science, not the speculative crap of people with a religious agenda to preserve some outdated ideal that a child should only be raised by a man and woman.

 

[Altruistic Muse]

No offense, but the bullying argument is nothing but a copout. Twenty years of same sex family research has demonstrated one reality. Despite the possibility of additional stressors to children, same sex couples raise children who are no better or worse adjusted than children raised by heterosexual couples.

http://www.ru.edu/faculty/rboughner/courses/Alternative activities/Children of gays.pdf

That is the science, not the speculative crap of people with a religious agenda to preserve some outdated ideal that a child should only be raised by a man and woman.

Fair enough, I'm interested in different perspectives. But I am allowed my own opinion on the subject and I don't think that it's an ideal environment for kids to be brought up in. That's not to say it wouldn't be loving, or that the kids would have issues with it in adulthood. I just would say that an easier background would be to have the same family dynamics as the other children around. That's just my thought on the subject.

 

[nfuerfuau3873]

I can't see what basis there is to suggest that same gender parent would have a negative effect on children. In all fairness, same gender parenthood is alot better than single parent families. At least the children are getting the right amount of attention.

I would ask for your comparative opinion on single parent family units, but it would be horribly off topic.

 

[Altruistic Muse]

I agree, and I'm not saying being brought up in a single parent family is an easy upbringing either, although this probably wouldn't create much bullying on top of it. Obviously the ideal is to be brought up by two parents, a mother and a father, both good role models etc. I'm not saying it happens often at all. That's the ideal though.

 

[nfuerfuau3873]

Do you not think though, that the bullying stems from the ignorance of the other parents? If no one cared about same gender parents, no one would make a big deal about it, and therefore it would be a pointless basis for bullying.

Besides, I agree regarding the 'ideal' parent role model, however I am of the opinion that out of single parent and same gender parent family units, the latter is better in terms of childcare. Opposite gender parents don't fornicate in front of their children, and neither would same gender parents. They might kiss, but so do opposite gender parents.

 

[Altruistic Muse]

Do you not think though, that the bullying stems from the ignorance of the other parents? If no one cared about same gender parents, no one would make a big deal about it, and therefore it would be a pointless basis for bullying.

Besides, I agree regarding the 'ideal' parent role model, however I am of the opinion that out of single parent and same gender parent family units, the latter is better in terms of childcare. Opposite gender parents don't fornicate in front of their children, and neither would same gender parents. They might kiss, but so do opposite gender parents.

Oh no, I'm not saying they would fornicate or anything. I don't think they're bad people lol! I guess it just boils down to the fact that I am a traditionalist. Plenty of same sex couples have adopted children and I'm sure more will continue to do so. And this is fine, I'm not going to go crazy about it or go to protests yno. I just personally believe that it's not the way that things should ideally be, that God made woman and God made man, and they possessed the right attributes to make a well balanced family emotionally. Some same sex couples will do a great job, I'm not disputing that.

 

[Julia]

This is impossible. Marriage is a religious act, it always has been. The problem is that marriage is mixed into the law. If the law was completely seperate from marriage and a contract such as civil union was given to all two parties who want to marry, straight or gay, it could be possible to talk about marriage without bringing in religion. But as it is, marriage is a religious act and the religious should have the right to limit who marries--- as long as the government does not endorse marriage or give it any legal merit. If it's part of the government, automatically a church has no right to dictate the law.

Marriage also evolved as a way to maintain inheritance property within a family name. It is a way to organize lineage and inheritance. Marriage also allows men to have more access/control over their offspring, and it allows women who were traditionally in a continual state of pregnancy/child rearing to have added protection. There are some compelling instinctual drives that can favor marriage in this way. It would make an interesting study to see which is the more underlying driving force for the development of marriage: property or religious ideals.

I don't want to go offtopic here, but in Belgium you can also have a civil marriage, without any involvement of the church.
Is this also true in other countries?

There should always be a civil union option for marriage for those who desire marriage, but do not want to make the contract through a religious organization. I believe a person can be married at the courthouse separate from a religious institution in the U.S.

I support gay marriage and have yet to hear an argument against it that has any reasonable foundation. A person's choice of whom to spend their life with or make a personal contract with is not my concern. Whether I believe in marriage, being gay, religion, or anything else is irrelevant for the rights of others just as my own choices in my personal life are not their concern. I'm a strong advocate for protecting personal boundaries in a society.