(Disclaimer: This is a rant, and this is not directed at any person in particular, especially not any person on the forums. I am never this bitter in person either.) This is really pissing me off. I'm tired of people (particularly women) challenging my masculinity and then freaking out when they find out that I actually AM A HETEROSEXUAL MALE who is interested in a heterosexual relationship. There is this whole concept of what a man is that is deeply ingrained into our society, and because I don't fit the bill, people treat me poorly. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO? Should I go lift weights every day and demean women after I shotgun a beer and smash the can against my head- because apparently real MEN have neither a full range of emotions nor do they feel as deeply as women do, and I HAVE HAD PEOPLE TELL ME THIS! People have told me that men only experience a limited range of emotions compared to women. Real men don't think deeply or take time to develop themselves emotionally and intellectually. A real man doesn't think things through- if he is intelligent, he studies a narrow but valuable discipline in order to maximize his marketability and capacity to provide for and to exploit the sexuality of women. BECAUSE SEX IS ALL REAL MEN CARE ABOUT. In fact, mainstream psychology seems to have endorsed the idea that men are in fact stupid. Men have testosterone, and the more testosterone a man has, the more stupid he is, but simultaneously, he becomes more attractive to women because the stupidity created by the toxicity of testosterone demonstrates to women that the man has good genes. He is saying "look at how good my genes are because they can survive such a high amount of testosterone poisoning", so women are biologically driven and justified in seeking out stupid men. Socio-biologists are moronic. The stupidest thing about all this, however, is that REAL MEN ARE VIOLENT. Real men need to get out the woods and hunt animals. Real men don't think about emotional conflicts, they punch you in the face! Well if they want violence, I can show them violence. If they want an emotionally retarded jerk, I can be one. Women will treat me like a friend and then suddenly I wasn't "direct enough in the beginning", so I am "just a friend". I don't "put myself out there". I have yet to meet a woman who will own up to her decisions in relationships. I'm not so stupid that I can be tricked into thinking that it is my fault for their lack of interest. If they are not interested, they should just say so, but they can’t because they are so imbedded in their bad faith that telling a guy that they are not interested would be too much responsibility for them. They can’t “hurt his feelings”, and men can’t control their sex drives either, which is his primary reason for pursuing any women. In case you haven’t noticed, I’m being largely facetious. I think that many people would agree, or at least many feminists would agree, that men seek out women whom they will find easy to control. I think that women are the same way. If a man displays a depth of thought and emotion, he will not be easy to control. Simultaneously, many women expect men to be able to handle “a strong women”- let’s hope these are not the same people. In addition, women are going to be wary of men who have many female friends with whom they regularly converse. Women in general, and men in general, suck, and I can’t stand it. Why are people so stupid? Very few people actually think for themselves, and everyone is just looking for someone easy because that requires less effort.
Well, I dislike stereotypes. I, for one, am tired of men trying to be what they think a man "should be". I wish more men would express emotion. My boyfriend is ISTP- I can't ever get him to have an emotional moment with me, much less show it. So, kudos to you! Don't let people get you down- they are obviously oblivious to what INFJ men have to offer.
BUT the fact that other people feel the same way you do proves not everyone is this way, and that should be at least somewhat comforting, right? My fiance (an ISTP, by the way) has a lot of stereotypical "non-masculine" traits, ex. likes to cook, cross-stitch, appreciates ascetic things, giggles, says "aww" in response to baby animals and humans, can appreciate "chick flicks", etc. He is straight, yet when he reveals these traits or I tell other people about them, their response is always: "Yeah, he has to be gay. At least bisexual. I don't care if you've been together two years- I know him better than you do, because there's no way a straight guy could do these things!!!" So I can totally relate. I just laugh at them, and bask in the fact that I have a wonderful future with someone who realizes that people are more than the stereotypes society shoves them into. Eventually, you will find a girl who feels the same way. I promise you, we are out there!
I don't blame you for ranting. It must be very frustrating. Unfortunately, I think that television and movies reinforce the stereotype. The good news is that as you get older, more and more women your age will have figured out the stereotypes were wrong. The bad news is that might take a while.
My bf is an ISTP too, and I know what yr talking about... it's hell sometimes, lol... You're SO right, I wish more men would experience and express their feelings too. Oddly enough, I know of another INFJ forum member here who has an ISTP bf as well. We should start a club Dragon, I commend you for this thread, you're an awsome guy btw, and I know it's hard to tolerate this crap in the outside world. Hang in there, and thanks for posting this.
Ria- thanks! I think it's natural for me to be attracted to that type- just something about them. Although, in my experience, it's a very difficult relationship to have! Alot of work is involved. There are just too many communication barriers!
Add me to the list. My ISTP boyfriend is very sweet around me and other females. Flirty. Around other men he is the stereotypical male, though. INTJ mom is right about age changing women's attitudes. Hang in there.
So...this means you won't be killing dinner? Kidding. I understand what you mean. I think I would prefer a man be honest with himself and others about emotional matters. It's not like women don't know that men have complex emotions. Although, some guys make me wonder. I find rugged masculinity appealing, but it isn't the standard, and doesn't necessarily make for a good partner. And violence is never, ever acceptable. I think you're better off just being yourself. You have a greater chance of ending up with someone worth your time if you don't compromise your identity. Really.
Dragon, I'm totally with you on this. This used to be a big problem for me too. There are probably many women on this forum that are more masculine than I am, but nowadays I don't care much. I have learned to respect and love my inner self to the degree that I don't feel I have anything to cover up. Still, I often do a bit of acting when there are other people around that I know would be bothered by my ways otherwise, for their's sake, which is a shame really. Those people are literarily everywhere. It is way more accepted to look down on a soft guy than it is to look down on a gay person. I don't normally like to give advice (because I don't like to receive advice), but I think I know what you need, and that's confidence. Not that kind of fake shit that some people carry around, but real true confidence that comes from knowing and loving who you are. How you find that is up to you, but once you have it you will be radiating vibes that will make people stand in line to get to know you. And best of all, you will still be you. High five and all that crap! P.S. And grow a beard. P.P.S Just kidding.
sounds sooo familiar )) The following might be chauvinistic, but I'm not in a mood to be politically correct (I do understand that not all women are this way). Some years ago I've heard a saying that you can't really talk with a girl until she's 25. And you know - it turned out to be true Their young heads are just so full of BS when it comes to relationships that you need a shovel to clean the place up. Now I can laugh with a straight face at some of the things they are saying and they will respect me for that Just don't let them sell you all that crap that you've written here. Because if you do, you're not going to get laid for a looong time. I wish I knew at your age what I know now about this - it would have saved me so much trouble If you wish I can recommend some insightful material on it.
Some women, probably most women, think that only some males have complex emotions. Other women think that males don't have complex emotions, and many men think that as well. The only thing I can compare this attitude to is the attitude that many people hold about animals, such as cows, that those animals don't experience a full range of emotions, so that the animals don't really suffer when they are slaughtered to be eaten. I have to compromise my identity. I've come to accept that I don't really have the will to act how I would ideally like to. Don't criticize me for it- I am sure that you conform too. Almost everyone does. I think you're absolutely right about this, but it is definitely difficult. I know most people have this problem though at some point in their lives, and many never fully address the problem. What material can you recommend?
Correction, stupid people think that men do not have complex emotions. End of story. That's a very bold misconception that you came to believe. The reality is the opposite - the less you compromise of what you are, the more attractive you become. The question is - do you really know yourself that good? I found this book to be invaluable. It's INFJ friendly and will certainly turn some things that you suppose about relationships upside down. The best part is that you will not have to compromise anything of who you currently are.
It kind of saddens me that you feel this way. I think all men have complex emotions, but aren't encouraged to make them known. And most men don't, out of fear of being ostracized for it. I wouldn't necessarily blame some women, or most women for this. If the majority of men we meet don't show us this side of their personalities, then how are we to know it exists? And as far as compromising your identity, well, I disagree. And I'm not criticizing you. I was trying to encourage you. I really still think it's better to just be yourself. It makes you special. Don't you want to find someone who thinks you're special for what you really are, instead of what you've forced yourself to be to appease others? I'm not saying not to be constantly trying to find ways to improve yourself, because we all should do that. Just be yourself. Be yourself, be yourself, be yourself. It sucks sometimes, and it gets lonely, but it's so much more fulfilling to have the real you appreciated in the end.
I completely empathize with you here Dragon. Yes it seems that for all the talk, most women are only attracted to stereotypically masculine male. We write the poetry, the lyrics and the literature that excites them, but they turn to the 'macho' guys to satisfy that excitement. ...at least it seems that way when you listen to the voice of culture. Maybe most women do actually want that. I don't know. Too many people of both sexes seem superficial and materialistic. Those women probably don't find me attractive. But that's fine because it only takes a short conversation for me to find out that the feeling is mutual. I'm not looking to 'hook up' with as many women as I can. I'm looking for that special her and if she's the one then she will love me back. At that point in time does it really matter what any other woman likes? I know what I have to offer, and I suspect you know what you have too. The ones that don't value it don't matter on a personal level.
