Extraverted Thinking

[Quinlan]

What do you think/feel about this process?

I've had a breakthrough in my understanding on the processes and I really don't like when people rely too heavily on Te, this must be my most disliked process, that's right TJs convince me it's the best thing ever.:thumb:

 

[Lurker]

Imagine this: You've arranged to have dinner with a bunch of Te-lacking party-goers, you haven't had a chance to eat all day and are super primed for something massive and tasty, you arrive and everyone gets busy chatting, about an hour later your stomach tells you to speak up and you ask what’s happening for food, they tell you they’re going to order pizza (luckily that was pre-arranged by a Te-loaded soul who isn’t in attendance), great, they keep talking, another 30 minutes go by and you ask them when they’re gonna order pizza, they look at each other and giggle agreeing they should prolly do that soon, they keep chatting while waiting for someone else to do so. Another half an hour goes by before one brave soul decides to grab some menus and the group gets busy trying to decide which pizza maker to order from, this process takes another couple of hours and while waiting for the Te-less party to decide on what toppings to get you waste away to nothing and die still sitting in your chair.

Conclusion: Without Te you won’t eat at parties and will die. To be safe take a Te with you to all social events.

Not only should be completely convinced now but I may have just saved your life.

 

[IndigoSensor]

As lurker said, all of the processes are usefull and nesscerry.

that being said, I do not like using this process.

 

[Quinlan]

Conclusion: Without Te you won’t eat at parties and will die. To be safe take a Te with you to all social events.

Not only should be completely convinced now but I may have just saved your life.

That story just reminds me how sucky my Te skills are.

Would I be wrong in saying Te is the source of racism, generalisations and snap judgements? Te is good except when it's applied to people.

What amuses me greatly is the fact I'm probably using an immature form of Te to make my judgements about Te.

 

[Soulful]

How does Te function express itself? How would I know that I'm using my Te or Ti function? I've looked at stuff online, sometimes I wish they would just give real-life examples instead of "like to do x, y, z".

 

[Lurker]

Would I be wrong in saying Te is the source of racism, generalisations and snap judgements? Te is good except when it's applied to people.

Recon most people are just sheep who don't want to think for themselves, disliking someone cause they're different is the easy/lazy way out. Sure Te can make snap decisions but the focus is on efficiency, racism etc is ignorance. I would say that xxTJs are prolly more likely to have set opinions but I haven't noticed a pattern with racism or generalisations.

What amuses me greatly is the fact I'm probably using an immature form of Te to make my judgements about Te.

Tis a little amusing

How does Te function express itself? How would I know that I'm using my Te or Ti function? I've looked at stuff online, sometimes I wish they would just give real-life examples instead of "like to do x, y, z".

My example was for the benefit of Quin’s Se delights but it is still an example in the sense of showing that Te is decisive.

If something needs to be done Te will ask “is this solution effective and will it be useful?” People with strong Te organise and control they are the ones who maintain order and efficiency by coming to decisions quickly and setting out logical plans of action.

Ti on the other hand is more interested in problem solving and coming to new understandings. Rather than looking at the effectiveness and usefulness of a solution like Te does, they are interested in analysing the different aspects of a solution in a step-by-step logical manner. If something needs to be built for example they'll analyse the structure and placement to make sure it's correct.

 

[Soulful]

Hmm.. that's interesting Lurker. Thanks.

*shakes head* I really have little insight into myself :\

 

[Obstinate]

God, now this makes me reconsider my INFJ-ness. I must be an INT/FJ because I switch off quite easily.

 

[ZenCat]

Imagine this: You've arranged to have dinner with a bunch of Te-lacking party-goers, you haven't had a chance to eat all day and are super primed for something massive and tasty, you arrive and everyone gets busy chatting, about an hour later your stomach tells you to speak up and you ask what’s happening for food, they tell you they’re going to order pizza (luckily that was pre-arranged by a Te-loaded soul who isn’t in attendance), great, they keep talking, another 30 minutes go by and you ask them when they’re gonna order pizza, they look at each other and giggle agreeing they should prolly do that soon, they keep chatting while waiting for someone else to do so. Another half an hour goes by before one brave soul decides to grab some menus and the group gets busy trying to decide which pizza maker to order from, this process takes another couple of hours and while waiting for the Te-less party to decide on what toppings to get you waste away to nothing and die still sitting in your chair.

Conclusion: Without Te you won’t eat at parties and will die. To be safe take a Te with you to all social events.

Not only should be completely convinced now but I may have just saved your life.

Profound. I'm going to hang this on my wall and look at it every day.

 

[Satya]

I spent several months on the INTJ forum and ended up developing this function a great deal. I did not like it at all initially. I even created long, detailed threads on other forums talking about how much I hated it. But there is something to be said about being able to objectively destroy a person's argument as opposed to evaluating the values behind it (Fe) or subjectively interpreting the facts behind it (Ti). With Te, instead of relying on your own personal experience and opinions, you can actually use evidence and reasoning to build a case to support your point of view. Unfortunately, Te is not so great at dealing with contradictions or flaws within evidence and if you rely on it too heavily on it, then people can find those contradictions and flaws and turn your own evidence back on you, thereby casting doubt on your case. I've seen INTJs fight practically to the death defending their faulty interpretations of evidence. It's such a common occurrence that I've dubbed it "delusional ideology syndrome" since it amounts to rationalization based on faulty or incomplete evidence. Case in point, Ayn Rand. Give an INTJ an axiom and if they choose to believe it, then they will see the entire world through the filter of that axiom regardless of whether or not it is actually true, and then they will see their filtered perceptions of the world as proof of the correctness of that axiom.

 

[NephilimAzrael]

And here was I wondering about the discrimination that Quinlan initially associated to Te. When all along, the discrimination came back as your own..

In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.

Bearing in mind the experiences that Satya has had in INTJf, I can see where the concept of "delusional ideology syndrome" comes from, but what also comes to mind here is that Fe is not a long-way from being in the exact same boat.. The Te hate can stop. With enough reflexive use of this function, any "problem-solving" Ti can achieve, Te can achieve also, in a pragmatic manner. The Te is not perfect, yet never claims to be. It claims to take what is and use it towards the end goal. Regardless of how that may affect the conceptions held in ad populum.

 

[Satya]

Bearing in mind the experiences that Satya has had in INTJf, I can see where the concept of "delusional ideology syndrome" comes from, but what also comes to mind here is that Fe is not a long-way from being in the exact same boat.. The Te hate can stop. With enough reflexive use of this function, any "problem-solving" Ti can achieve, Te can achieve also, in a pragmatic manner. The Te is not perfect, yet never claims to be. It claims to take what is and use it towards the end goal. Regardless of how that may affect the conceptions held in ad populum.

Very true. I've noticed people with well developed Fe or well developed Te utilize "safeguards" to keep that function from getting out of hand. Otherwise the judging function can lead people to develop an indestructible resolve that their judgment is the correct one and all others are inherently inferior. In Fe people, the safeguard is a "call of relativity" in which a person recognizes that values cannot be evaluated in terms of absolutes since they vary so much due to circumstances and culture and Te people have a "call of uncertainty" in which they recognize that logic cannot be evaluated in terms of absolutes since it can be improved with the discovery of better evidence. It seems to be only when those safeguards are abandoned that Fe users become self righteous or Te users become egoistic.

Those who have developed a balance between the functions, Fi with Fe or Ti with Te, seem to even be able to take the safeguard a step further and make it work for them as a means of constantly improving their evaluations. The "call to relativism" is incredibly useful in social faciliation and the "call to uncertainty" is one of the fundamental pricincples of science. The ability to make correct judgements seems to be vastly improved merely by admitting that you could be wrong even when your perception of the external evidence suggests that you are right, but it takes an extraordinary amount of maturity and willpower to stand by that principle in the face of adversity, so only the most developed types seem capable of doing so constantly. Without external support from others, I almost always crack under the pressure and give into the desire to be right over the desire to be objective.

 

[NephilimAzrael]

Thanks Satya, you understood me. You do not know how pleased I am of that.

Without external support from others, I almost always crack under the pressure and give into the desire to be right over the desire to be objective.

I nearly always give in, when the evidence is so very circumstantial, it is as though I crave for that ultimate severance from emotion. Yet in the end, I realise, it is emotions that are influencing my convictions to do so. Hence, I reel myself in to find the most effective solution. One untainted by imbalance (fervorous conviction).

 

[Satya]

I nearly always give in, when the evidence is so very circumstantial, it is as though I crave for that ultimate severance from emotion. Yet in the end, I realise, it is emotions that are influencing my convictions to do so. Hence, I reel myself in to find the most effective solution. One untainted by imbalance (fervorous conviction).

You are certainly a better man than I. I always have to remind myself of that quote by Nietzsche.

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."

To exercise skepticism in my own judgments and accept that a certain evaluation of values or a certain strain of logic that differs from my own can be equally valid is the limit of my maturity. I often make other people defend their position in order to justify my own, and that seems to be the mark of an individual who has a long way to go in developing their personality. But at least I know my way is important to me and is worth defending and I don't have to delude myself into believing in absolutes (like those who have fervent convictions do) in order to know that, especially since I'm the one who ultimately has to live with consequences of my decisions.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Man, Te can be irritating. I'm fairly good at utilizing it, having a ENTJ twin sister...but it's irritating nonetheless.
Te, when not balanced, can be the death of all real logic. True, it's useful in some situation, but they can come to conclusion so quickly and without enough stuff...and then they are so STUBBORN about it...
It can be very frustrating.

Though, when it's balanced and all that, it can be very useful....the trick is convincing someone with high Te that they need to get more balanced T
_T

 

[Quinlan]

It claims to take what is and use it towards the end goal. Regardless of how that may affect the conceptions held in ad populum.

Perhaps I have been unfair towards Te, what bothers me (and it might not even be Te that I have in mind) is when people decide quickly what is ("this is objective reality, I know it to be true because I have seen it") without looking deeper into the facts and accepting that contradictions to their "reality" should have an effect on their plans. For example; someone might say "Fat people are lazy, it's just fact, I have known fat people and they were all lazy, therefore fat people are lazy, they should be punished for their laziness." When you point out that Johnny has a glandular problem and is no more or less lazy than you or I, they say "sure he's not lazy" but you can bet they will still judge the next fat person the see in the same way. They tend to think the exception proves the rule rather than disproves it.

What (unhealthy) type or process tends to believe that their limited subjective experiences = objective reality?

 

[NephilimAzrael]

Perhaps I have been unfair towards Te, what bothers me (and it might not even be Te that I have in mind) is when people decide quickly what is ("this is objective reality, I know it to be true because I have seen it") without looking deeper into the facts and accepting that contradictions to their "reality" should have an effect on their plans. For example; someone might say "Fat people are lazy, it's just fact, I have known fat people and they were all lazy, therefore fat people are lazy, they should be punished for their laziness." When you point out that Johnny has a glandular problem and is no more or less lazy than you or I, they say "sure he's not lazy" but you can bet they will still judge the next fat person the see in the same way. They tend to think the exception proves the rule rather than disproves it.

What (unhealthy) type or process tends to believe that their limited subjective experiences = objective reality?

Ok, that stirred a headache for me a little bit. That sort of thing is logically fallacious, regardless of what they may conceive, their argument is wholly undermined by it's unsound foundations. If they altered it more so (to the extent of not assuming a generalisation) then they could get round to seeing the bigger picture.

Thanks Quinlan, it is good to see you shaking the misconception of that being a Te trait only. I could recommend a really interesting read for you;
Straight and Crooked Thinking, by Robert H. Thoughless.
It goes through logical fallacies and dishonest tricks in argument. As well as how they may be approached/countered.
[I really like these Emoticons]

 

[Zero Angel]

Imagine this: You've arranged to have dinner with a bunch of Te-lacking party-goers, you haven't had a chance to eat all day and are super primed for something massive and tasty, you arrive and everyone gets busy chatting, about an hour later your stomach tells you to speak up and you ask what’s happening for food, they tell you they’re going to order pizza (luckily that was pre-arranged by a Te-loaded soul who isn’t in attendance), great, they keep talking, another 30 minutes go by and you ask them when they’re gonna order pizza, they look at each other and giggle agreeing they should prolly do that soon, they keep chatting while waiting for someone else to do so. Another half an hour goes by before one brave soul decides to grab some menus and the group gets busy trying to decide which pizza maker to order from, this process takes another couple of hours and while waiting for the Te-less party to decide on what toppings to get you waste away to nothing and die still sitting in your chair.

Conclusion: Without Te you won’t eat at parties and will die. To be safe take a Te with you to all social events.

Not only should be completely convinced now but I may have just saved your life.

Nah, once we realize that other people want pizza, our Fe will come in and save the day!

 

[Cuddle Donor]

How does Te function express itself? How would I know that I'm using my Te or Ti function? I've looked at stuff online, sometimes I wish they would just give real-life examples instead of "like to do x, y, z".

Ti is proactive whilst Te is reactive. That's the way I have interpreted it. It is what tends to give INFJs a reputation for being punctual when compared to INFPs (where Ti is 8th on the ranking of processes).

Note: INFPs are still capable of using Ti and being punctual. :tongue: It's just more natural for INFJs since Ti is responsible for things like time management and it is 3rd (I think?) in their ranking.

Another way it manifests itself is in a stressful situation. INFJs would prefer to retreat, collect their thoughts and come up with a solution before they go back. INFPs simply just take in the information in real-time and adapt accordingly by trying things until something works.

Make sense? Take it with a grain of salt though, I didn't know about cognitive processes at all a month ago. :spy:

Perhaps I have been unfair towards Te, what bothers me (and it might not even be Te that I have in mind) is when people decide quickly what is ("this is objective reality, I know it to be true because I have seen it") without looking deeper into the facts and accepting that contradictions to their "reality" should have an effect on their plans. For example; someone might say "Fat people are lazy, it's just fact, I have known fat people and they were all lazy, therefore fat people are lazy, they should be punished for their laziness." When you point out that Johnny has a glandular problem and is no more or less lazy than you or I, they say "sure he's not lazy" but you can bet they will still judge the next fat person the see in the same way. They tend to think the exception proves the rule rather than disproves it.

What (unhealthy) type or process tends to believe that their limited subjective experiences = objective reality?

No process causes that. A lack of applying a judgment process (Ti, Te, Fi, Fe) is what causes that.