Enneagram Type 8
- Thread starter VH
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I should look into that. I once read that 4 and 8 were essentially the same type turned inside out. I've certainly felt inside out a lot these past 4 years.
But why is it that you don't believe anyone could be in love with you? I find that very disheartening that you think that to be so, I really hope you feel better soon
Unfortunately, life experience. I'm sure there are people that could be in love with me, but of the people that I could be in love with it's no longer possible. I'm no longer appealing to anyone within my standards, and I can't change my standards. I'm a big, old, ugly, mean bastard that does freelance work (read: no job). I don't blame anyone for not wanting this.
You always kind of struck me as a 6w7 so/sx/sp, VH.
I never saw you as someone who wanted to be in control or dominant, but rather, someone who resisted being controlled or told what to do. You have this teeter-totter balance of independence and dependence. You're neither extreme, but I think you'd detest the idea of admitting that you'd like to rely on people from time to time. Rather, you'd prefer to have people rely on you, because as much as you love people, none of them give you that certainty that they'd be as loyal as you know you'd be to them. Hence, your bold, independent face you show the world.
You also don't seem like the type to worry about keeping harmony. You're not afraid to stir the pot if something irks you. If anything, I think your preference for 'peace' comes more from a preference for security and grounding. You don't like to have the rug pulled underneath you (nobody does, really) but it bothers you immensely because it interferes with your sense of security and certainty. You want to know you've got things nailed down for sure. You want to know who your friends are, and you want to know who you are, hence why I suspect you got into typology in the first place. It make navigating the social sphere so much easier when you have an idea of what to expect from people. And you like to know what you can expect from people. Your plethora of poll threads comes to mind here.
You like to know where you stand with people, and you like to know what they think. You're interested in their impressions of you and the actions you take. Here's that interesting independent/dependent dichotomy again. You'll end up doing you're own thing eventually, but somehow, you find it easier when you've got some social backing and an outside perspective to make up your mind.
You're there for other people too. Fiercely, so, I think. 8's and 9's tend to be more solitary types. And while you're a nice and helpful person, 2 doesn't seem right. There's something about you that, despite all this sociability and friendliness, you're detached and pulled into yourself in a way.
You're also much too gregarious to be a nine. lol. You're fun-loving and playful and you love to make people laugh and laugh in turn. In fact, I think you seek out social stimulation too.
That's my two cents, hon.
And for goodness sake, you're an amazing man. I'd have to open a can of whoop ass on the universe if its planning on keeping you single. I just don't see that as possible for long.
I never saw you as someone who wanted to be in control or dominant, but rather, someone who resisted being controlled or told what to do. You have this teeter-totter balance of independence and dependence. You're neither extreme, but I think you'd detest the idea of admitting that you'd like to rely on people from time to time. Rather, you'd prefer to have people rely on you, because as much as you love people, none of them give you that certainty that they'd be as loyal as you know you'd be to them. Hence, your bold, independent face you show the world.
You also don't seem like the type to worry about keeping harmony. You're not afraid to stir the pot if something irks you. If anything, I think your preference for 'peace' comes more from a preference for security and grounding. You don't like to have the rug pulled underneath you (nobody does, really) but it bothers you immensely because it interferes with your sense of security and certainty. You want to know you've got things nailed down for sure. You want to know who your friends are, and you want to know who you are, hence why I suspect you got into typology in the first place. It make navigating the social sphere so much easier when you have an idea of what to expect from people. And you like to know what you can expect from people. Your plethora of poll threads comes to mind here.
You like to know where you stand with people, and you like to know what they think. You're interested in their impressions of you and the actions you take. Here's that interesting independent/dependent dichotomy again. You'll end up doing you're own thing eventually, but somehow, you find it easier when you've got some social backing and an outside perspective to make up your mind.
You're there for other people too. Fiercely, so, I think. 8's and 9's tend to be more solitary types. And while you're a nice and helpful person, 2 doesn't seem right. There's something about you that, despite all this sociability and friendliness, you're detached and pulled into yourself in a way.
You're also much too gregarious to be a nine. lol. You're fun-loving and playful and you love to make people laugh and laugh in turn. In fact, I think you seek out social stimulation too.
That's my two cents, hon.
And for goodness sake, you're an amazing man. I'd have to open a can of whoop ass on the universe if its planning on keeping you single. I just don't see that as possible for long.
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It was worth much more than 2 cents.
Well you know... you're always welcome at my place. ;-)
(Seriously though, thanks for the supportive sentiments)
Pay it no mind. I was having a pity party, and being a whiney bitch. I do that sometimes when I get butt hurt over not being able to achieve a personal craving, need, lust, etc.
I also realized I get flirted with by amazing women on a regular basis, and never have any trouble getting numbers.
My problem is I want someone who is even more amazing than amazing. I want someone who is physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually awesome. In other words, I'm getting pissy over the fact that I can no longer have any woman I want, and being a spoiled brat about it. If I can't have everything I want, then I don't want to bother, and act like a little kid who pitches a fit.
I want epic true love, the kind that songs are written about, tales are told about, and the world envies so much that it can't help but to bask in it. I want love, true love, not a fling with someone that will never satisfy me or will never appreciate me. That's the difficulty I'm complaining about.
Wah.
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Or in movies, rather. Or tv. Fantasy land, yes.
Really, to have the best love possible, I think we have to be blind (metaphorically speaking, but sometimes literally speaking). No one is perfect, no one. Someone will either be too tall, too short, too heavy, too skinny, too hairy, too bald, too muscular, too poor, too rich, too snobby, too - insert your "too" here. I'm not saying to settle, but it's okay to compromise. Find the person you "click" with on a level that includes more than the just the physical appearance. Do that, and you'll have found your guy/girl.
I couldn't agree more, you also have to look at it this way if you're looking for the long term. You're both going to get old and wrinkly and sexually unappealing. When I think of "true love" the first people I think of is my grandparents, they'll be celebrating their 65th wedding anniversary this year. To me there is nothing quite so romantic or loving as an older couple who still love each other, it takes something below the surface to find someone you want to share that with I think.
That's the kind of love I'm looking for!
Problem is, in our day and age, it's very hard to find someone who is capable of this.
I've pondered this before, and mostly agree.
I have read a few descriptions of Counter Phobic 6 that were on point, but I am definitely an sx/so/sp. The descriptions of 6w7 seem pretty accurate, but the descriptions of sexual 6 were very accurate.
If I am a CP 6 sx, this would explain why I have this 8 streak. The two look a lot alike on many levels. 8w9 and CP 6 sx are deeply similar. The sx (instinctive) drive brings a lot of 8-like traits to 6, and a CP 6 is going to exhibit a lot of "I refuse to be vulnerable or weak" motivations. 6 integrates to 9, so for all intents, these are almost twin types, just mirror reversed.
However, I don't have the anxiety issues that 6's have, and when I get around clear 6's, they annoy me with their constant worrying chatter. I can only reassure someone a dozen times before I'm ready to beat the reassurance into them. That said, this could be the key difference between a Counterphobic 6 and a Phobic 6. My main issue isn't anxiety. It's anger with lust and getting lost in my head as steady contenders for second.
All of this is very clearly accurate. I'm touched by how well you read me. ;-)
Agreed.
...except for 8's being solitary types. 8's are more likely to be extroverted than not. They are alphas and independent to the extent that they refuse to rely on anyone else, but they're quite social. You can't be the boss with no one else around. If you're fully independent and self sufficient, you're likely a 5 (which I am not).
True.
I have been considering lately that I might be a 1... and have gotten really unhealthy. Traditionally, any of my 8-ish behaviors have been in the pursuit of an ideal. I chalked this up to being an NF 8, but it could be that I'm misinterpreting the gut/instinctive reflexes as well as the anger issues. I would only lash out when I knew I was in the right, or performing a greater good. I used to not be willing to put up much of a fuss when I knew I was in the wrong.
I've only recently gotten tired of taking shit from people, life, etc. and in that same time frame, I've only recently begun to act against my core idealistic principles and instead operate from instinct. I am still conflicted internally, and even have pangs of guilt and self discontent (as to opposed self loathing), but not enough to to stop myself much anymore.
From what I understand, 1's often cut loose once they finally reach those lower levels of unhealthy... which I definitely did in the past 4 years. In a way, I could definitely see where I used to be a 1, but I don't feel like I am anymore. So much of that crap just doesn't matter to me anymore.
However, letting go of all of that has freed me up a lot, and 1's have a tie to 7 as they get healthy. This could account for my playfulness and sense of humor. Meanwhile, 1's have a tie to the creative side of 4s, as well as the passion and depth of feeling.
When a 1 gets unhealthy, they have a lot in common with 8s. When a 1 lets go of the things that inhibit them, they have a lot in common with 8s.
Meh, it's possible. Maybe I am a 1 that has grown/developed. Maybe I actually switched from 1 to 8. That would certainly create a situation where 9 would be like a hinge.
I need you to be my own superhero who battles the forces of the world that keep me single. That'd be awesome!
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I'm starting to look at Enneagram as being almost independent of behaviors. Just because two people have similar core motivations, doesn't mean they're going to manifest them in a similar way. Most importantly, I'm starting to see how MBTI type (aka perspective) filters the hell out of those motivations.
To use Enneagram 8 as an example: The core motivation is a deep feeling of vulnerability (to the world) and therefore a drive to compensate for it.
Extroverts are going to take a very outwardly proactive approach to making sure they are not vulnerable by exerting their influence over everything around them that could be a threat. Se dominants are going to exert through making their presence known. Te dominants are going to exert by taking control. Ne dominants are going to constantly be on the lookout for potential threats and constantly generating counters for them. Fe dominants are going to exert by demanding how they feel things should be, and most importantly by taking a stand against how they feel things shouldn't. All of these are going to be clear 'alpha' personalities, and they're going to react to challenges as if they were direct attacks on their vulnerabilities.
Introverts are going to take a more defensive approach, making sure they can compensate for their vulnerabilities, and can trust that they will be able to deal with any threats. Introverted 8's are the types to have the 'surprising' bursts of assertion, as they've been saving it up and were ready to unleash it. Si dominants are going to do a lot of background research and hard work to know that they are prepared, and able to counter attack with red tape, process, and correctness. Ti dominants are going to develop a toolbox full of leverage tricks that they will have in reserve the instant they feel vulnerable. Ni dominants will constantly be scanning for potential weaknesses in themselves and others and have a knack for reflexively knowing how to react when threatened and keeing themselves in a position of advantage. Fi dominants are going to spend a lot of time and effort building themselves up as powerful, unyielding, and in control - most importantly independent.
That's eight very different ways in which an Enneagram type can manifest, which creates a situation where Enneagram types can have a whole lot more surface variation than MBTI types.
To use Enneagram 8 as an example: The core motivation is a deep feeling of vulnerability (to the world) and therefore a drive to compensate for it.
Extroverts are going to take a very outwardly proactive approach to making sure they are not vulnerable by exerting their influence over everything around them that could be a threat. Se dominants are going to exert through making their presence known. Te dominants are going to exert by taking control. Ne dominants are going to constantly be on the lookout for potential threats and constantly generating counters for them. Fe dominants are going to exert by demanding how they feel things should be, and most importantly by taking a stand against how they feel things shouldn't. All of these are going to be clear 'alpha' personalities, and they're going to react to challenges as if they were direct attacks on their vulnerabilities.
Introverts are going to take a more defensive approach, making sure they can compensate for their vulnerabilities, and can trust that they will be able to deal with any threats. Introverted 8's are the types to have the 'surprising' bursts of assertion, as they've been saving it up and were ready to unleash it. Si dominants are going to do a lot of background research and hard work to know that they are prepared, and able to counter attack with red tape, process, and correctness. Ti dominants are going to develop a toolbox full of leverage tricks that they will have in reserve the instant they feel vulnerable. Ni dominants will constantly be scanning for potential weaknesses in themselves and others and have a knack for reflexively knowing how to react when threatened and keeing themselves in a position of advantage. Fi dominants are going to spend a lot of time and effort building themselves up as powerful, unyielding, and in control - most importantly independent.
That's eight very different ways in which an Enneagram type can manifest, which creates a situation where Enneagram types can have a whole lot more surface variation than MBTI types.
I love your brain, VH. A marriage between MBTI and enneagram; enneagram = motivation, MBTI = flavour of expression. It's so obvious, it's brilliant.
To add to your theory, the enneagram/MBTI joining might also account for different ways in which which the same types might express their shadow. A type 8 INFP in shadow might have a more aggressive expression than say, a type 2 INFP. When people say they think they're in 'shadow' mode because it sounds like something else, it might be beneficial to examine the enneagram type first.
Thanks! I've had this theory for a while, but haven't been able to enunciate it like that until now. I needed to have a few more pieces fall into place.
Enneagram > MBTI > The world
Enneagram < MBTI < The world
Absolutely.
Of course, this puts me in a position where I am even more confused about my own types, especially since I've been so prone to being all over the place these past few years. My Enneagram is either counterphobic sx 6, sx 1, or 8w9. My MBTI is some manner of NF.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/enneagram/27713-how-argue-8w7.html
I did not bother to correct the spelling errors.
How to argue with an 8w7
Do you feel intimidated of frightened an 8w7 or by a aggressive thug in general? Feeling overpowered and helpless when he talks down on you and verbaklly berate you? Do you feeling like crying when you are forced to swallow his BS? Here are the strategies you can use to make sure that will never happen again.
(1) Keep in mind that most of the time that 8w7 have a stupid caveman carrying a big stick mentality. If you are smart, you will understand that 90% of what he says is mostly retarded bullshit and can be ignored. it is like farting.
(2)Tired of him shouting orders like a marine sargent and following his orders? Feel like walking on egg shells when you see him? When he told you not to make a certain mistake, make sure you repeat that mistake at least 5 times when you are in his presense. When he issue verbal threats, say you are only forgetful and have panic attacks. You cannot remember anything when someone shouts and yells.
(3)Take assertive training courses or like martial arts classes like karate or judo or boxing. It strengthen your confidence and makes you more able to take shit from obnoxious people.
(4)Remember words can't kill. He could verbally abuse you or insult you, but he could never have the power to kill you. If he threatens to use force, wait for him to use it. See how far he can go and watch him shout like a wild animal.
(5)If you are one of the more sensitive types and he really hurt your feelings, and you feel like crying. Cry, cry in his presense, don't hide your tears. Do it over and over again whenever he shouts at you (at least more than 3 times). Sooner or later, he will get tired of seeing someone cry, or you won't cry anymore and get adopted to the shit he says.
(6) Buy a give-a-shit meter like this one:
Take it with you whenever you see him.
(7)(a)Write down every word he says on a notebook when he talks or insults you or bring a tape recorder and record every word he says. If he forbid you to do this, say you have problems remembering stuff and have to record it. If he still won't let you do it, don't do it then and make stupid mistakes (bascially forget everything he says and make retarded mistakes over and over again).
(b)Play the tape or read these words at home over and over again so you get adjusted to his bullshit. Next time when you go to work, pretty much you can adapt to what he says and not get intimidated by it.
(8)Draw a comic strip about you and your 8w7 boss in a meeting. (You remember everything he said from the tape reccorder or book). Draw him like a angry monster or whatever you depict him as. Post the comic strip on the Internet and share the website with everyone. The comic strip must have his exact words.
(9)Find a friend or someone who support you in a meeting when you see him, or someone who hates him as much as you do. Remember, one person cannot argue with two mouths. Watch him get fucked up. (Preferrably bring a ESTP or ENTP, or a 7w8, because these types can take a lot of verbal shit and pretty much disregard authority).
(10)Yawn when he talks in a meeting. Or fall asleep. Do it over and over again.
(11)Fart.
(12) If you are an evil genius type or have an machieveillian personality, you can pretty much see through his facade (an insecure caveman with a big stick). Buy your time and wait for him to trip on his knees. It takes patience and more patience, and one day, you will plot hims doom. Remember Julius Caesar got stabbed by 21 daggers when he got too powerful, this will probably happen to him one day when he made too many enemies.
(13)It takes experience to deal with a verbal bully or an oppressive person.
The more you argue with him or more you listen to his BS, the more experience you get and more skill you become.
(14)These type of people always have to prove they are right. Let them.
Use Guerrilla warfare. Contradict and prove him wrong when you see holes in his logic and reasoning, but listen attentively when he insist.
(15)Clap your hands when he makes a big speech or a fight. Say you agree and like everything he says.
(16)Videotape your fights with your boss. Post the video on youtube.
(17)If all else fails, bring a suicide bomber with you when you are in a board meeting with him. Leave early or go to the washroom and say you have a big surprise for him. (you can get a suicide bomber from your Muslim friends).
I did not bother to correct the spelling errors.