Enneagram Type 8

[VH]

Now *that* is interesting ^^. I like what it's saying about the nine connection to six as well as three. I've felt the six connection many times, and every once in a while the three. But I like the descriptions.

Agreed. The Intimate 9 description was excessively accurate. The 9w8 was pretty spot on as well - especially the bit about going back and forth from 9 to 8.

Do you have a link to those descriptions, @VH?

I'll trade you for the link to six you sent me a little while ago. (I lost it in a recent message box purge)

http://www.thechangeworks.com/ennprimer/fineenn9styls2.html#anchor2041233

I believe VH got these from this site. The full write up of VH's quotes can be found here.

Yup, that's the one.

 

[VH]

Ah, then there was this... still on the fence.

Intimate 8
Want stability, loyalty and predictability in close relationships. May feel easily betrayed, and are prone to suspicion. Can love deeply, have a genuine close-up interest in and concern for spouse. Since life is dangerous they want to choose close allies carefully. Attached to the idea of being able to trust completely. Lots of testing of their partner's motives. If they pass the tests then the Eight relaxes.
When entranced, this can lead to possessive obsession, and a need to dominate and control partner. Intimate Eights can get codependent, jealous, hooked into the other. Sometimes can't let go; their partner's every move is (over)reacted to. When very unhealthy, spousal abuse scenarios are possible. Stalking, vengeful vows to follow other to the ends of the earth, etc. Connected to the low side of 2. Intimate Eights sometimes play socially rebellious "bad kid" roles.

Eight With a 9 Wing
Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive.
When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

 

[technics]

I am realizing that I am a mean, pushy, domineering prick that is made of rage, lust, and aggression.

No, you're not. You are totally within the tolerable range.

Eight With a 9 Wing. Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have ...

Oh, that's exactly me. How fascinatingly accurate. I wouldn't have thought of myself as healthy now, though, but I gladly accept the judgment. Just kiddding...

I suddenly feel like an ISTP.

 

[Kmal]

haha i'm definitely not an 8w9

 

[VH]

haha i'm definitely not an 8w9

Your status says 9w8. Would you mind explaining what you see as the differences? I'm quite on the fence between these two types, and would appreciate some clarity.

 

[Kmal]

@VH

Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey.

I never think I'm authorized to command someone around unless what they're doing negatively affects me. I do most things myself; though I will ask for help on things, waiting for them to comply so I can assign duties, rather than command them as if they've already accepted/offered to help.

When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions.

It's like they lose awareness-- which I pride myself on never losing, probably attributed to Type 9. Calmly dominating in all aspects, which is like taking their authority for granted. If someone does something around me that directly impacts me in a negative way, I'm not calmly dominating; I am very forceful in getting a result I am satisfied with. My dad, an ENFJ 8w9, is very calm when someone does something negative around him, and usually gets a similar result as me, except with use of intimidation through words, or manipulation.

 

[VH]

I never think I'm authorized to command someone around unless what they're doing negatively affects me. I do most things myself; though I will ask for help on things, waiting for them to comply so I can assign duties, rather than command them as if they've already accepted/offered to help.

I dont' think I'm authorized to command people. In fact, I'm very reluctant to do so because I know how offended I get when people try to command me. However, people tell me I'm very much an alpha male. I suppose I can see it, because no one gets to be "the boss of me". I'll pretend they are if they're paying me. But... I'm very much on my own path, and I am very much annoyed by people who 'push' to directly. I'll ask, and I can be very insistent on the outcome, but I only make demands when I'm pissed.

That said, I've had a lot of complaints over the years that surprised me where people said things like "You think you're the king of the world" or "You are such a cocky bastard". Overconfident, etc.

It's like they lose awareness-- which I pride myself on never losing, probably attributed to Type 9. Calmly dominating in all aspects, which is like taking their authority for granted. If someone does something around me that directly impacts me in a negative way, I'm not calmly dominating; I am very forceful in getting a result I am satisfied with.

If I'm dominating, I'm almost never doing it on purpose unless I'm angry. Though I have to admit that when I am angry, I lose that urge to be kind (and for people to be kind to each other) that I have when I'm 'normal'.

My dad, an ENFJ 8w9, is very calm when someone does something negative around him, and usually gets a similar result as me, except with use of intimidation through words, or manipulation.

I am very curious about this as one of the types I consider for myself as a possibility is ENFJ 8w9. What can you tell me about your dad? How would you describe him and his vibe?

 

[Kmal]

@VH

I am very curious about this as one of the types I consider for myself as a possibility is ENFJ 8w9. What can you tell me about your dad? How would you describe him and his vibe?

I dont' think I'm authorized to command people. In fact, I'm very reluctant to do so because I know how offended I get when people try to command me.

That doesn't sound like my dad at all. He's eager to command people and assert his dominance. He naturally assigns duties during and sometimes before the planning stage, as if he didnt even have to think about it; like he spoke it, instead of thought it and then spoke it.

Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor.

The bolded describes my dad to a tee. The first sentence made me chuckle at how accurate it was. His vibe is very grounded, stable, and in control. The typical manly man vibe. You want to follow him when a project is under-way. Very engaging and open.

I'm pretty broad when I explain things-- do you have specific things in mind?

 

[VH]

That doesn't sound like my dad at all. He's eager to command people and assert his dominance. He naturally assigns duties during and sometimes before the planning stage, as if he didnt even have to think about it; like he spoke it, instead of thought it and then spoke it.

I'm not eager to command people, but I do tend to be in charge for no other reason than I generally have a clear idea of what needs to be done, and people follow it. The last part sounds like a typical extrovert. I'm going to have to ponder whether or not I do this. I do have to admit that I tend to do the "ready, fire, aim" more often than I would like to, especially in a dynamic moment. However, I do tend to ponder a lot.

The bolded describes my dad to a tee. The first sentence made me chuckle at how accurate it was. His vibe is very grounded, stable, and in control. The typical manly man vibe. You want to follow him when a project is under-way. Very engaging and open.

Hmm... this could describe me, especially the bolded part, but I'm not sure if it would be an ENFJ thing or an 8 thing.

I'm pretty broad when I explain things-- do you have specific things in mind?

Unfortunately, my mind is a blank. I do tend to have that problem when put on the spot. This is one of the reasons I'm considering 9w8 instead of 8w9. If I come up with something, I will be sure to ask. Thanks for the help so far though.

 

[VH]

Okay, @Kmal might I present you with the questions I asked of acd?

1. You are driving in the middle of the night and it's lightly raining, there are no other cars on the road except the one in front of you by a few hundred yards (meters). Suddenly the car in front of you goes out of control, and rolls end over end. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

2. A close friend begins to try to push your buttons in a way that seems like a deliberate yet subtle attempt to be domineering and assert his dominance over you. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

3. You are at a bar when several women begin yelling at a friend of yours, and this rapidly escalates into a brawl that starts moving your way. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

 

[VH]

You are most likely a type 8 (the Challenger)
with balanced wings

Sexual variant

Type 8 SX
Type 4 SX
Type 3 SX
Type 7 SO
Type 1 SO
Type 6 SX
Type 2 SO
Type 5 SO
Type 9 SX

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test-2.php

 

[arbygil]

You're an 8 - but you lean heavily on your 9 wing. I can tell this because you (and I mean this kindly) you can be *pushy* and I don't see 9s as being very pushy. You're lovely, but still pushy when you want something.

 

[VH]

You're an 8 - but you lean heavily on your 9 wing. I can tell this because you (and I mean this kindly) you can be *pushy* and I don't see 9s as being very pushy. You're lovely, but still pushy when you want something.

True.

I am lovely.



Edit: @arbygil , I think the biggest proof of me being an 8 is that you always know how to approach me, even with unpleasant truths, without ever remotely ruffling my feathers. You have a lot of experience dealing with 8s, and it shows. You have a gift for expressing the facts without letting it seem adversarial.

Yes, I am pushy... and a whole host of other traits that I'm still working on (and probably will be my whole life), but I'm certainly not going to get butt hurt over the truth. Something that a lot of people seem to not understand about 8's is that they are extremely sensitive to personal challenges. It doesn't matter what is said... if it comes across as a personal challenge, it's ON. If it doesn't come across as a personal challenge, you can tell 8's the roughest things and we'll either agree or disagree.

Then again, it might be a factor that you're in my group of people that I have earned my trust and loyalty... Someone else who hasn't earned my trust might be able to approach me in exactly the same way, and I might take offense. Hmm... I need to ponder this some more. Deconstructing myself takes a lot of time, effort, and spontaneous examples. I suppose that's also an 8 thing.

 

[VH]

I do believe you are right, Arby. I lean strongly on my 9 wing.

...and from your links...

The Intimate Eight

Lusting for Life

When we turn to the intimate subtype, also called the relational or sexual subtype of the Eight, we see that the central concerns of the Eight are focused on one or a few persons. Remember, the central preoccupations of the Eight are dominance, power and vengeance. The world view is that the universe is hostile, so it's a good thing I'm strong. I better see who is on my side in the battle, I better know who has the power and nobody is going to watch out for me, so I better watch out for myself.

But the watching out for myself is tricky. In one sense they watch out for themselves in the sense of battling anyone who gets in their way. They will take on any enemy, fight any battle. In another sense, they don't take care of themselves at all; they don't nurture the soft side of themselves. They will feed the poor and hungry and then not take care of their own health. The reason they do this is that they project their own nurture needs onto another, take care of those others and then don't realize they have unmet nurture needs themselves. Given this preoccupation with power, taking care of others, and surviving in a hostile world, what happens when this energy is focused on one person, usually the sexual partner?

They are prone to suspicion because the world is not to be trusted in general. They often have a need to completely control and almost possess the sexual partner. (If you possess them, then you have all the power and that's the way it has to be). In order to get past the suspicion, they usually put the partner through a lot of tests. Just to see what they will do: how much can I really count on them in the clutch?

After the tests are past and passed, the Eight wants utter reliability, a large amount of stability and of course, loyalty (the Social Eights want loyalty to the group, the intimate Eight wants loyalty to the partnership). Sometimes if the testing goes on too long, the relationship can become abrasive and lose the necessary tenderness to allow them to stay together. If the partner can get past the tests, then the allegiance of the intimate Eight is total, at least for long periods. Periodic "check ups" are probably predictable.

The lust for life and the drive for power that are common to all Eights show up in a desire for sexual intensity. Eights will often pick a fight just to ratchet up the emotional temperature. They will lose interest in a dull relationship. Their usual style of direct forceful communication manifests itself in their physical desires also. The word for the Eight is lust, but whereas lust in the scholastic tradition of the capital sins was sexual desire, the Enneagram tradition means lust for life, a hunger for physical intensity in all areas of life and love.

The sexual/intimate subtype chooses partners other than sexual and bonds totally with them, too. Therapists can only be trusted after testing but then they are trusted utterly. Same with business partners, some athletic teams of one or two. I've seen it among hunters who have implicit confidence in the other (and of course hunting is symbolic, too). Sometimes the dominance theme will flip and the Eight will surrender, revealing the soft side of the personality. This is especially common among healthier Eights. It reminds me of the powerful dogs who bare their throats when they have had all the fighting they can take.

Eights, like all the anger types, have trouble thinking clearly, even when they are highly intelligent. The fighting they initiate is in the service of truth. They want to get at your honest feelings, your real posture in life, your values -- what you will and won't stand up for and stand for. (A Five will observe someone, a Six will psyche them out but an Eight digs out the innards to see what's really there!)

Funny thing though, is that I can see how I manifest these traits a little differently than they are presented. This is undoubtedly due to being an NFJ. Priorities and focus are a little different, but the core motivations are the same.

It certainly explains why my type has been so difficult to pin down. I have that 8-ish need for truth and the NFJ idealism, which clash with the descriptions not matching up perfectly.

Based on what little I could glean of @Kmal 's ENFJ 8w9 father, I think the only way everything is going to line up is if I really am the mythically rare INFJ/E8 combo... as much as I was really hoping to find others like me, and not be the odd man out yet again. I have the pushy streak, and a lot of the 8 traits, but I just don't have the extroverted 8 traits. I don't care to be in control of anything but myself (which I suppose means the immediete group I'm with but only in a "I go my way and people follow" effect).

Kmal: Does your ENFJ 8w9 dad seem at all like he might actually be an INFJ? Or is his extroversion pretty clear?

 

[arbygil]

Hee...My mother was an eight. 8w7.

 

[VH]

Hee...My mother was an eight. 8w7.

Is it possible that I'm a 9w8, and you're picking up on my 8 energy because you're a 9w1 and you're very aware of 8 energy?

The reason I ask is this...

I'm realizing that most of the description of 8 explains parts of myself I feel are unhealthy parts of me. There are a lot of things in the 9 description that explain the healthier parts of myself. When I'm in my clearly 8 modes, I'm usually in an unhealthy place. I'd go so far as to say that the degree to which I exhibit the unhealthy side of 8 is in direct proportion to how unhealthy I am emotionally/spiritually. The inverse is true for 9. The degree to which I exhibit the healthy side of 9 is in proportion to how healthy I am emotionally/spiritually.

My goal with personality type exploration is to become the best person I can be, but I understand that I can't do that without truly understanding myself, so it won't be as simple as "If you feel healthier as a 9, then decide you're a 9."

I do realize that this might very well be rooted in my Judeo-Christian values associating a lot of those 8ish behaviors with 'the flesh', something I have struggled with my whole life... while those same values in many ways exemplify the 9ish approach. My NF idealism may simply be thinking of these parts of myself as good and evil because of this. I did note recently in this thread that it is possible for an 8 to be a truly good person, perhaps one of the greatest, when they can overcome their 'issues'. Unfortunately, some of those issues seem to have been a constant thorn in my side spiritually. But, when I'm at my healthiest, there is a lot of 9 and 2 replacing those things. While 8s can be magnanimous, this seems above and beyond magnanimous when it's good. I am actually humble (as hard as that is to believe) and kind when I'm in this state.

To add to that, I also tend to have a fair amount of the 9ish unhealthy traits. I get lost in my head, forget to finish things, really don't like conflict (unless I'm provoked to it, and then I feel bad about it afterward), I withdraw into my fantasy world, and am more inclined to hesitate and ponder than take action (if I can get away with it). Most importantly, I repress a lot of anger - even if I it does seep out frequently creating emotionally toxic environments. It's as if the 8 only pops out to protect myself like a defense mechanism, but if I'm not healthy it won't go away. In a way, it reminds me of the Dr. Jekyl / Mr. Hyde scenario.

Is it possible that this is actually 9w8, and the 8 mechanisms are the addition? It feels like both of these are my core, but are two distinct cores. Sometimes I wonder if I've developed an adaptive personality, or even more alarmingly split myself into 'good' and 'bad' sides in an effort to purge myself of my 'bad', but in doing so I've created a monster.

 

[arbygil]

I think...you need to find out what's "normal" for you, or when you first felt at peace. Despite being a bit off I don't see you as behaving as a 9 because 9s will withdraw when they feel off about themselves and life in general. You don't withdraw; you still attack life head-on and that's far more 8-like.

Have you considered that your stacking might not be sx first? Try so or sp first, and try these descriptions on for size. I think you might be social first:

Eight

Social/Sexual


This subtype of Eight comes across a little softer then the sexual first subtypes. The social instinct combines with the sexual to make a subtype that is very aware of interpersonal dynamics. Like the social/self-pres Eight, they are less concerned with group dynamics. The social/sexual is more talkative, and if the Seven wing is dominant, may even be mistaken for a Seven. This subtype usually has a wide circle of friends. They can be very charismatic also, using humor to charm people. On the down side, they can use their interpersonal awareness to con people.

This subtype, largely because the self-preservational instinct is last, may be the least entrepreneurial of the instinctual subtypes of type Eight. The lust for life manifests through connection to others. On the high side, their awareness of the social dynamic makes them very charismatic. On the down side, it can make them overly aware of issues involving control. They are especially sensitive to any hint that others may be trying to control them, but they may misuse power themselves.

Eight
Social/Self-pres

This subtype generally has a larger sphere of influence, although they might still be very entrepreneurial. They are likely to be more socially minded then the other subtypes of Eight. They are more aware of group dynamics. The social instinct, when combined with the type Eight fixation, causes an exagerrated awareness of whoever is in control. This often leads these Eights to get involved in politics, or to rise to levels of leadership within their place of business, or within their social organizations. They are also just as likely to oppose the group or the person in charge of it. The self-pres instinct combines with the social to give this subtype a "can do" approach to life, similar to that of the self-pres/soc. The difference is that their scope of interests extends further into the social arena. The soc/self-pres Eight, when unhealthy, can use their awareness of power relations to abuse whatever power they might have.

 

[VH]

I think...you need to find out what's "normal" for you,

Agreed.

or when you first felt at peace.

There are a lot of schools of thought about Enneagram that describe types as "I need to have X to be happy".

1. I am at my happiest when I have someone to truly love that truly loves me. I need the comfort of someone to love. They become my emotional safe place. If I don't have this, I can't rest, and if I can't rest, my heart gets cranky and goes into that mean callous mode. This gives me peace of heart to be myself.

2. I also need peace and harmony in my environment. Too much chaos, confusion, contention, etc. will eventually overwhelm me, and then I will lash out (usually making it worse). I need to be able have a safe place in my surroundings and be around people who increase the harmony (rather than decrease it). I need to be free of demands so that I can move at my own pace and engage my creative urges. This gives me peace of spirit to be myself.

3. Lastly, I need comfort and security physically. I need to know that the bills are paid, will be paid, and everything that we need to be safe, comfortable, and happy in our little fortress has been stockpiled (or at minimum is flowing in on a regular basis). It doesn't have to be a castle, just a nice cottage or even a Hobbit hole... my place to keep the world out so I can imagine. This gives me peace of mind to be myself.

If I have all of these things, I can then let my light shine its brightest. I am able to show love and kindness unreservedly. I am able to thrive on creative tangents and enjoy the things that I love, like making art, playing video games, watching movies, creating stories, and being in the flow of my best (if that makes any sense).

If I don't have these things, I feel compelled to battle for them, and when these things are unattainable without resorting to unscrupulous means, I end up in a real connundrum that often results in me shifting into that 'bad side of 8' I mentioned... which has the added side effect of getting me to settle for things that are not only not on my needs list, but are actually counter to them.

And as I'm typing this... I'm realizing that I also need to feel powerful and capable. If I can't make these things into a reality, who will? I need to feel that I can meet my needs, and when I start to feel that I can't, I go to a dark place... the bad 8 starts to show itself and I go into this mode that says things like "If I can't have love, all that leaves is sex, so I might as well be a horny prick" "If I can't make money doing right, I might as well make money doing wrong".

Despite being a bit off I don't see you as behaving as a 9 because 9s will withdraw when they feel off about themselves and life in general. You don't withdraw; you still attack life head-on and that's far more 8-like.

True. If there is a problem, I really don't like to wait to deal with it. Even if it is advantageous to wait out the problem, that's difficult for me. I only withdraw when I know I can't win... and then I have a bad habit of compulsively pulling a scorched earth exit if I can get away with it.

Have you considered that your stacking might not be sx first? Try so or sp first, and try these descriptions on for size. I think you might be social first:

My sx and so scores are always pretty close. It's possible that I'm scoring higher on sx if I'm an 8 (as they're pretty instinctive). The so/sx description sounds about as accurate as the sx/so. The others, not so much. I think the sx is the deeper core need and the so comes out when I'm healthier. The sx is always there. The so is only there when I feel like I am strong enough to be social.

Crap. I am an 8.

 

[VH]

I also suddenly remembered something...

8's are reported to be competitive. I have wrestled with this part of myself my whole life, but it's not a deliberate thing. It's a reflex, and subconscious. When I see someone is stronger than me at something I need to be strong about, I get this sudden urge to improve until I know I'm better than they are. It's irrelevent if they know I'm better than they are. I do, and then I lose my interest in whatever it was.

I have this massive urge to be 'strong enough'. Huh.

Here's another example of it rearing its ugly head. One day when I was in one of my unhealthy modes, I did PvP on World of Warcraft for like 12 hours straight. It was like crack. I lost all track of time until I looked up and saw that I had gotten 773 kills from the time I logged in that day... and I was soloing. Of course, I got 4 more, just to round it out to 777, but the thing I realized there was that my whole life I've had this drive to go into that mental zone of predatory no holds barred competition. Sure, it was just a video game, but it was tripping that deep core instinct in me. I was trashing players left and right. I was unleashing my anger and rage into a focused beam of superiority (geek power, yay), and the only thing it did was make this instinct worse. I know people (most of them) who can play games like that and unwind. For me, it is the exact opposite effect. It cranks up that instinctive part of me, and when I'm done, I'm even more of a bastard in real life. I realized on that day that I needed to detox after playing, and that was not at all good. I cancelled my account.

 

[Kmal]

Okay, @Kmal might I present you with the questions I asked of acd?

1. You are driving in the middle of the night and it's lightly raining, there are no other cars on the road except the one in front of you by a few hundred yards (meters). Suddenly the car in front of you goes out of control, and rolls end over end. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

2. A close friend begins to try to push your buttons in a way that seems like a deliberate yet subtle attempt to be domineering and assert his dominance over you. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

3. You are at a bar when several women begin yelling at a friend of yours, and this rapidly escalates into a brawl that starts moving your way. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

1. Immediately call 911 and try to help them until the paramedics arrive.

2. I'd just ignore it, or make fun of them about it. If it got too bad I'd tell them straight up "Look, what you're doing is pissing me off. Stop it."

3. Since I wasn't involved, I'd just get out of the way.

Based on what little I could glean of @Kmal 's ENFJ 8w9 father, I think the only way everything is going to line up is if I really am the mythically rare INFJ/E8 combo... as much as I was really hoping to find others like me, and not be the odd man out yet again. I have the pushy streak, and a lot of the 8 traits, but I just don't have the extroverted 8 traits. I don't care to be in control of anything but myself (which I suppose means the immediete group I'm with but only in a "I go my way and people follow" effect).

Kmal: Does your ENFJ 8w9 dad seem at all like he might actually be an INFJ? Or is his extroversion pretty clear?

haha! He's the most extraverted person I've ever met. Even when he's alone, his presence is extremely extraverted. There is no way in hell you could mistake him for an introvert.

[MENTION=708]VH[/MENTION] does conflict and asserting your dominance over people energize you?