Enneagram Type 8

[VH]

You could be an sx 8 with a 2 image fix that makes you seem softer than most other 8s. I wouldn't rule out sx 6 though.

I haven't. I see a lot of resonance with 8 sx and Counterphobic 6 sx. I'm rather certain one is my core and the other is in my tritype thing.

I've been on the fence about either some manner of 2 or 4 as my image/heart thing. When I'm healthy I go to a more 2, 9, 1 effect. I've been assuming that this is the result of the other three types being in healthy spots (8, 6, 4) When I get unhealthy (such as the past few weeks has started to lean) I am prone to dropping into what seems like a 5, 3, 2 effect. However, I could be wrong on this, but it seems to me that I'm an 8 sx with 6 and 4 in there (and the criss crossing of these effects could be causing the wings).

 

[Tulip]

4s and even 4 image fixers build their identity on being misunderstood. They see themselves as being fundamentally flawed and prefer to stay mysterious to keep people from getting close, for fear that people will see what is wrong with them and that they will lose their identity if they get understood.

 

[gps]

The more deeply I read about Enneagram 8, the more it resonates with me.
However, Enneagram 8 INFJs (or ENFJs for that matter) are extremely rare, and in a lot of circles considered two types that cannot coexist in the same person. many go so far as to say that NF + 8 is impossible.
It certainly feels that way to me.
My entire life, I've been a clash of motivations - idealism vs. instinct.

For those of you in the know about MBTI and Enneagram, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this combination.

As a type 5 my direction of integration is supposed to be 8.
However, I had some difficulties with a pair of 8s a couple of years ago: one an INTJ woman `friend' and the other an xSTx male buddy.
I responded to both of them as exploitative bastards who got more than they gave and expected others to capitulate to their superiority, wonderfulness, etc.
In short I found both of them to have self-esteem levels far beyond performance levels; in this regard similar to the type 3 `motivator' (EG narcissist).

As for me integrating into a type 8, the best I can come up with to edge myself towards operating more like a leader and less like a thinker is to lead by example and to to turn my brain bastards into brain children and support them in the real world.
As an INTP I've tended to not experience much concern with having others adopt my ideas the way ENTPs are supposed.

So ... an INFJ type 8?
Adolf Hitler comes to mind for some reason.

I do confess to bias in matters of Js of any sort in positions of power or would-be `authority'.
The worst combo for me are male ENFJs; something in me wants to rip their messianic heads off and shit down their necks. Yeah, it's pretty severe, I know.

I've yet to meet an xNFJ who wasn't willing to sacrifice my personal preferences and well-being for `the greater good' ... as if (s)he were prescient enough to KNOW what that might entail.
So this doesn't endear them to me to whatever extent my biases and expectations are enacted by the particular xNFJ.

There's a lot of text out there on Enneagram; a lot of it more akin to astrology than anything scientific.
I prefer the writings of Riso & Hudson.
They use 9 levels of `health' with each Enneagram type.
The type 8s I parted company with in '09 were not healthy enough to NOT manifest self-entitled, exploitative, and destructive behavior.
I recall a similie used to describe the temperament of German dogs (Doberman Pincers, Rottweilers) as like their masters, either at your feet or at your throat.
I'm not so sure that this canard applies to either Germans or their dogs, but this seems to apply to the enneagram

Obviously, all 18 enneagram-wing permutations can function as contributing members of society as well as experience personal satisfaction.
Personally, I'm not very interested in interacting with all but the most healthy of type 8.
As a 5w4 I seem better qualified to knock them off their self-entitled pedestals than to prop them up by supporting their delusions of grandeur as `leadership material'.
I'm beginning to suspect that I may end up as a leader among fellow 5w4 iconoclasts ... forever getting knocked down off whatever pedestal some fool places me upon.

 

[VH]

So ... an INFJ type 8?
Adolf Hitler comes to mind for some reason.

Possibly. However, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi are both rather universally described as INFJ 8s. Granted, I'm not that amazing, but I can see that ability to say anything to anyone, and stand unyieldingly, as driven by my principles as the INFJ + 8 mix.

I've yet to meet an xNFJ who wasn't willing to sacrifice my personal preferences and well-being for `the greater good' ... as if (s)he were prescient enough to KNOW what that might entail.
So this doesn't endear them to me to whatever extent my biases and expectations are enacted by the particular xNFJ.

The biggest clashes I have with my friends are usually because they are being inconsiderate to everyone else, and I will stand up for that very quickly and sternly. Sounds like I'm the kind of person who would drive you nuts, heh, Hitler.

 

[Tulip]

Hitler and Gandhi are not 8s. Hitler is a 6 while Gandhi is a 1. Martin Luther King Jr. is a sx 8 though.
Do you see any similarity between you and Martin Luther King Jr?

 

[VH]

Hitler and Gandhi are not 8s. Hitler is a 6 while Gandhi is a 1.

Good, because to be honest, I don't see any similarity between myself and either of them.

Do you see any similarity between you and Martin Luther King Jr?

I admire the guy too much to make an unbiased opinion on that. However, I think I see a lot of my own body language, timing, inflection, and vibe in videos where he is more sincere than the Gospel Preacher stage presence he has in most videos. The eye movements, the tightened eyebrows, the timing in collecting thoughts, the slightly subdued tone of voice, the focus shifts, the autonomous unyieldingness without being extremely pushy about it.

 

[VH]

Today I realized that my anger helps no one, least of all me.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Hitler is a 6

This strikes me as very odd.

Today I realized that my anger helps no one, least of all me.

The solution then is not to repress your anger, but to revert it to worthwhile causes.

 

[Tulip]

Why does Hitler get typed as 6

Not convinced? Here is a 46 pages' discussion on Hitler's type: What is Hitler's type?

Do your pick.

 

[Tulip]

Good, because to be honest, I don't see any similarity between myself and either of them.

I admire the guy too much to make an unbiased opinion on that. However, I think I see a lot of my own body language, timing, inflection, and vibe in videos where he is more sincere than the Gospel Preacher stage presence he has in most videos. The eye movements, the tightened eyebrows, the timing in collecting thoughts, the slightly subdued tone of voice, the focus shifts, the autonomous unyieldingness without being extremely pushy about it.

People of the same type can be different...even with the same core drive.
Especially Sixes, the difference between individual Sixes can be so great that it is almost impossible to write a description on either external behavior or internal landscape that would fit all.

Having said that, I admit a lot of the time people of the same type, wing and stacking can vibe quite similar.

 

[acd]

I'm a 9w8 sp...
For me... I'm interested in harmonizing and keeping the peace... even if I have to be assertive and directive to do it.

 

[VH]

I'm a 9w8 sp...
For me... I'm interested in harmonizing and keeping the peace... even if I have to be assertive and directive to do it.

[MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION];

Interesting. I'd be willing to agree with this statement. While I think I'm an 8w9, it stands to reason that these two types share a fair amount, perhaps even enough to confuse myself with 8w9 and actually be a 9w8. I would like to ask you a few hypothetical situation questions to help clarify the difference in 8w9 and 9w8 if you wouldn't mind. Since 8 and 9 are both 'gut' types, I want to ask about your gut reactions.

You are driving in the middle of the night and it's lightly raining, there are no other cars on the road except the one in front of you by a few hundred yards (meters). Suddenly the car in front of you goes out of control, and rolls end over end. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

A close friend begins to try to push your buttons in a way that seems like a deliberate yet subtle attempt to be domineering and assert his dominance over you. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

You are at a bar when several women begin yelling at a friend of yours, and this rapidly escalates into a brawl that starts moving your way. What would your initial gut response be and what would you do?

 

[acd]

9w8 makes sense for me, because I have this dual thing going on...deep down, I have an aggressive and dare I say, even dominant side... but I still require harmonious interactions and environments otherwise I just feel chaotic. I'm meek and mild until I see someone upsetting the social climate and causing a ruckus, then I try to diffuse it to get things back to peaceful. I'm an easy going person unless I feel a threat to myself or others in the environment. But it all comes from having an abusive father growing up, and hating seeing others mistreated.

Scenario 1: Gut response would be alarm and fear that the person is seriously injured.. and it's just me out here and it's solely my responsibility to help them. I would then call 911 and then go and check the person and wait until paramedics got there.

Scenario 2: Gut response would be irritation at such insolence (lol), and I would respond accordingly by challenging said button pusher to a duel. J/k. But I would be annoyed. And I would directly ask them, "Are you trying to piss me off?" I respond to domineering people by digging my heels in the sand and refusing to be led. Because I am stubborn. If I think someone is trying to control me or manipulate me, I have no qualms about pointing it out to them. I'm all for collaborating with others.. but I think I am entitled to being treated fairly by others, just as others are entitled of being treated fairly by me.

Scenario 3: I don't mess around with physical stuff. If I couldn't diffuse the situation with words, I would take my friends and leave the place. Actually, a few months ago I went out with friends and these guys by our table were getting into each other's faces and working up to a fight, and I started chanting, "Dance off" then my friends did the same. Then the two guys saw how ridiculous they must have looked, and decided to humour what turned into a bar full of people chanting "dance off" at them by having an actual dance off. So that worked out.

 

[VH]

9w8 makes sense for me, because I have this dual thing going on...deep down, I have an aggressive and dare I say, even dominant side... but I still require harmonious interactions and environments otherwise I just feel chaotic. I'm meek and mild until I see someone upsetting the social climate and causing a ruckus, then I try to diffuse it to get things back to peaceful. I'm an easy going person unless I feel a threat to myself or others in the environment. But it all comes from having an abusive father growing up, and hating seeing others mistreated.

Scenario 1: Gut response would be alarm and fear that the person is seriously injured.. and it's just me out here and it's solely my responsibility to help them. I would then call 911 and then go and check the person and wait until paramedics got there.

Scenario 2: Gut response would be irritation at such insolence (lol), and I would respond accordingly by challenging said button pusher to a duel. J/k. But I would be annoyed. And I would directly ask them, "Are you trying to piss me off?" I respond to domineering people by digging my heels in the sand and refusing to be led. Because I am stubborn. If I think someone is trying to control me or manipulate me, I have no qualms about pointing it out to them. I'm all for collaborating with others.. but I think I am entitled to being treated fairly by others, just as others are entitled of being treated fairly by me.

Scenario 3: I don't mess around with physical stuff. If I couldn't diffuse the situation with words, I would take my friends and leave the place. Actually, a few months ago I went out with friends and these guys by our table were getting into each other's faces and working up to a fight, and I started chanting, "Dance off" then my friends did the same. Then the two guys saw how ridiculous they must have looked, and decided to humour what turned into a bar full of people chanting "dance off" at them by having an actual dance off. So that worked out.

Your responses sound shockingly like what I actually did in those situations (except the bar fight, heh which was epictastic). We also have very similar backgrounds. I'd always assumed that 9's reflexively 'clammed up' in the face of confusion, chaos, and conflict. I have a few friends who are 9's and it's like watching someone shrink inside themselves when they are confronted. This changes my perspective on 9s. Thanks for that.

 

[VH]

Thanks to @arbygil; for this video. I've never seen a video on any personality type that resonated with me more. Wow. Just wow.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKEoKoZWAg0"]YouTube - ‪Enneagram Type 8 -- The Challenger‬‏[/ame]

 

[technics]

I'm an 8, but INTJ. Apparently the worst types. But I'm 1, too.

(I can't get rid of the thought that this is reflected in my avatar.)

 

[VH]

I'm an 8, but INTJ. Apparently the worst types. But I'm 1, too.

(I can't get rid of the thought that this is reflected in my avatar.)

Do you know what type of 8 you are? For example, I'm an 8w9 sx/so.

As an INTJ 8, do you sometimes get mistaken for (or mistake yourself for) an Extrovert?

(Also, I'd be willing to bet that the things you are attributing to 1 are actually 8's leaning toward 5 - perfectionism, getting things right, etc. 1 and 5 share those goals, but for completely different motivations.)

 

[technics]

Do you know what type of 8 you are? For example, I'm an 8w9 sx/so.
As an INTJ 8, do you sometimes get mistaken for (or mistake yourself for) an Extrovert?
(Also, I'd be willing to bet that the things you are attributing to 1 are actually 8's leaning toward 5 - perfectionism, getting things right, etc. 1 and 5 share those goals, but for completely different motivations.)

I'm not so adept in Enneagram, I don't even know what a wing is. But I wrote it all down, just a moment.

According to eclecticenergies.com I'm a 1w9, but before that I usually got an 8 (forgot to write down the wing). I did it again recently and the result was 1. The test at similiarminds.com said I'm an 8 sx/so/sp. I did a few times recently and it fluctuates between 8 and 1.

I always get mistaken for an extrovert, even by my best friends. They just can't believe when I tell them I'm introverted. But that has changed recently. Back then I had no difficulties with smalltalk, parties etc. and really enjoyed talking to people and always wanted to go out. But now, when I go out, I can no longer connect with people and don't really feel enthusiastic about smalltalk anymore. I think now I do look like an introvert.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, certainly not OCD-like. My perfectionism is more about creating proper systems and I hardly care about the details.

So what does this all say about me?

 

[VH]

I'm not so adept in Enneagram, I don't even know what a wing is. But I wrote it all down, just a moment.

According to eclecticenergies.com I'm a 1w9, but before that I usually got an 8 (forgot to write down the wing). I did it again recently and the result was 1. The test at similiarminds.com said I'm an 8 sx/so/sp. I did a few times recently and it fluctuates between 8 and 1.

I always get mistaken for an extrovert, even by my best friends. They just can't believe when I tell them I'm introverted. But that has changed recently. Back then I had no difficulties with smalltalk, parties etc. and really enjoyed talking to people and always wanted to go out. But now, when I go out, I can no longer connect with people and don't really feel enthusiastic about smalltalk anymore. I think now I do look like an introvert.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, certainly not OCD-like. My perfectionism is more about creating proper systems and I hardly care about the details.

So what does this all say about me?

First off, it says you are an 8. Secondly, it says you test almost identically to me, but that's mostly incidental.

Enneagram is based on an individual's deepest motivations. For 8's, our deepest motivation is not being vulnerable. This causes us to have a gut level drive to be in control and seek power in whatever form we percieve it. We also tend to have anger issues, are overly focused on our goals, and go out of our way to project strength (though this is often subconscious).

The reason you're testing as 1w9 is because 8 links to the more academic parts of 5. If you were to mix 5 (correctness) and 8 (instinctive assertion), it would look a lot like a 1, as 5 shares a lot of the goals of 1 and 8 is a 'from the gut' and 'anger based' type just like 1. The reason you're testing as a 9 wing is because you're an introvert. Most introverted 8's test as 9 wing. Put the two together, and you're likely to fluctuate between 8w9 and 1w9 on test results.

It also means that you're going to be mistaken for an extrovert because 8 is a very assertive motivation set. We're rather fearless and bold when dealing with people. We have no problem saying anything to anyone. We also have no problem engaging the world when need be. However, as introverts we're the 'watered down' versions of 8's. We're not as 'in your face' as the extroverted 8's, and our assertion often only shows itself when we are challenged.

You'll also likely have a part of yourself that looks out for people, especially those who are weak, or under your protection. As an 8, you'll have an instinctive radar for who is the stronger person in a situation, and those who abuse that will probably offend. Focus on these parts of yourself to become a better person. Learn to embrace the love we have for others, especially those weaker than us (which is pretty much everyone). When 8's are at their healthiest, they're not afraid to be vulnerable. We also become more and more like 2's - giving love freely, seeking to help others, and being magnanimous.

I'd highly suggest watching that video I linked a few posts back. If you're an 8, then the wisdom that is shared in that video is indespensible in my opinion. They're long, and it takes about 10 minutes for it to get going, but the three 'guests' on that show are well developed 8's who've learned how to overcome a lot of our inherent issues. I wish someone would have explained all of this to me years ago, but I probably wasn't ready for it then.

 

[Tulip]

It also means that you're going to be mistaken for an extrovert because 8 is a very assertive motivation set. We're rather fearless and bold when dealing with people. We have no problem saying anything to anyone. We also have no problem engaging the world when need be. However, as introverts we're the 'watered down' versions of 8's. We're not as 'in your face' as the extroverted 8's, and our assertion often only shows itself when we are challenged.

I would say 8w9s probably appear to be less extroverted than 8w7s due to the withdrawn 9 wing. I still doubt if there is any truly introverted 8s due to their expansiveness and high energy level.