Enneagram Type 8 | Page 10 | INFJ Forum

Enneagram Type 8

Update in the email conversation:

Nardi said "I was asked about a year ago to explore enneagram types with the NeuroPQ and did a paper for the summer 2012 issue of the "Nine Points Bulletin" on the topic. It's clear there is a relationship, in that the regions a person rates highly support their enneatype and wing."

That's very interesting, though makes sense. If he tells me what areas are generally associated with 8 and 8w9, I'll let you know.
 
I just finished reading "THE ENNEAGRAM OF LIBERATION: Freedom from Fixation" by Eli Jaxon-Bear.

It was about 400 pages of in depth explanation on Enneagram. It cleared up a lot of confusion.

While 6 and 1 were clear runner ups, 8 was the overall winner. I honestly couldn't tell you if 3 or 4 would be a better fit for the last slot in my tritype.

Looks like my chiropractor was right, and my assumptions about how 8 applies to an NF in previous posts of this thread were probably most accurate.

8w9 so/sx.

Huh. I really am a dick. I'm just an Idealist dick.
 
I think I'm simply living up to the title of Variable Hybrid. I'm INFJ on the inside and ENFP on the outside.

Here's a crazy notion that I've been entertaining -- cognitive functions and ambiversion. What if you're functions remain static, but you can change their attitude? Ni+Fe+Ti+Se (INFJ) becomes Ne+Fi+Te+Si (ENFP) and vice versa?
 
Here's a crazy notion that I've been entertaining -- cognitive functions and ambiversion. What if you're functions remain static, but you can change their attitude? Ni+Fe+Ti+Se (INFJ) becomes Ne+Fi+Te+Si (ENFP) and vice versa?

From what I understand about the theory on shadow functions (according to Beebe, Barrens, etc), that's how it's supposed to work, but according to the studies from Nardi's neuroscience study, that isn't the case. Ni and Ne are two entirely different ways in which the brain interacts with itself, stores and retrieves memory. According the Nardi study (as best as I can tell), what is causing this effect is simply increased energy levels combined with activity in additional regions of the brain.

For example, as an INFJ develops and grows (or when their energy levels are high... which probably helps expedite this process most), their Ni becomes better connected and therefore able to move faster (starting to simulate Ne), meanwhile developing activity in some of the extroverted regions that they did not have much activity in while younger.

And from what I understand this process would be the same for any type that develops into their "shadow".
 
I've been thinking and pondering all of this for the past few weeks. I've dug up some interesting info, and come to come conclusions.

Nardi doesn't know me, and has never met me. He also admitted that while ENFP was his best guess based on the static data that INFJ is a close second, and the two types have similar static maps. He said my pattern was "definitely NF, leaning introverted, possibly more NFP than J" and he said he was fairly certain that if we hooked me up to the machine that an ENFP pattern would be clear. He also said that my pattern is pretty clearly N dom. However, all of that is assumption on his part. I give his assumptions a lot of expert weight, but in the end its still assumption.

However, I know Ne doms. I'm fairly certain I'm not one. They're fairly certain I'm not one.

My chiropractor knows me, and has for years. He insists I have 8 energy, just the "in your face" version of 8. I know 8's. Aside from my conscience (NF) being stronger than theirs, I keep pace with them, and generally like them when they're not locking horns with me. Even then, if they can back down and still be cool, I respect them afterwards.

Therefore, if I am an ENFP 8, I would be a very clear ENFP and a very clear 8, as those two types mesh well together... Ne being outward focused and Fi being self focused. My Ne and Fi would be "all up in your face 24/7". There wouldn't be any ambiguity about my Introvert/Extrovert axis. That's simply not the case.

When you add 8 to any type, you get a boost of E (8 is outward focused) and T (8 falls back on 5 to support it), and to some degree a reduction in J (because 8 is reactive). Add that to ENFP, and you have an extremely E, strong Te, and solid P. Add that to INFJ, and you have an ambiguous I and J, with a strong Ti. Who does that sound like? This guy.

When I get unhealthy (confused, overwhelmed, don't feel like I'm in control or have mastery enough to be confident, etc.), I go to 5 and spill mental energy and seek advice (like now) and am prone to Ni-Ti loops. When I am at my best (or simply leaning toward healthy), I am more like a 2, and my Fe shines through. When I'm at normal mode, my Se and Fe are pretty strong for an INFJ, but they're 8 driven making them seem kinda like ENFJ, but not really.

However, there is no such thing as type. There are only factors that create a whole which can be defined as type. My factors have a lot in common with several types, but, it seems clear to me that they also combine to create something atypical to all of them, which has caused the confusion. I'm not the only one who has developed atypical factors. If I was, Socionics wouldn't have come up with subtypes to try to explain the people who don't fit the standard models. Ni-ENFj is perhaps the best description I've read that could pertain to me, but this subtype could be the result of several combinations of factors... INFJ with an extroverted leaning Enneatype like 8 or 7, ENFJ with an introverted and NT leaning Enneatype like 5, etc.

Okay, I babled on long enough. If you bothered to read this, I'm sure you get my point. So, here's some info I found on INFJ + 8 to keep the thread having more value than just me wrestling with my factors and type.

When they are working together, INFJ and 8 are an amazing balance of masculine and feminine. 8 brings assertiveness and confidence while INFJ brings insight and compassion. At the healthiest stages, it looks a lot like 2, but without the manipulation or neediness, and certainly none of the vanity. (It is flat out overconfidence, regardless of how anyone else feels about it.) All of that 8 inner strength is focused on helping others and making the world a better place while the INFJ talents lie in seeing what needs to be done and envisioning a truth beyond what simply is.

At the average to less healthy stages, 8 begins to lose its compassion and push for what it wants, which begins to turn Fe into a demanding sense of how things should be - rather than being supportive, protective, and magnanimous. The INFJ insight becomes a radar for manifesting those drives into reality. We become even more pushy, insistent, and willful, but begin to hold our own desires in equal weight to the needs of others - sometimes crossing the line of putting ourselves before others. This is an issue, because as 8's, we are much stronger than most people, but can't see that while we're engaging our will. This can lead to inadvertently hurt feelings, which makes our INFJ side feel very guilty.

At unhealthy stages, we lose our empathy, and know exactly how to achieve what it is that we want... with unyielding drive. Anger and lust issues are very common at this stage, and though INFJ 8's usually do a good job of keeping them under control due to the subconscious influence of knowing the consequences of our actions, when 8 gets unhealthy enough, we temporarily lose our ability to care. Any inadvertent hurt feelings we cause here are obviously the fault of their weakness, not our strength, and therefore they deserved to be hurt. Follow my lead, or get out of the way.

At extremely unhealthy stages, we turn into predators fueled by our instinctive lusts (anger, sex, hunger, pleasure, etc.) that have the cunning of our nearly psychic insights. Everyone and everything are prey to devour or resources to exploit... or simply sport for us to unleash the built up rage we so desperately try to keep locked within us.

Needless to say, we generally feel very bad about these sorts of behaviors once we start to get back to feeling healthy. I really don't like to apologize, so it's a double whammy. Apologizing says "I was (am) wrong and I was (am) weak" while at the same time while being an act of weakness (supplication) in and of itself. Therefore, INFJ 8's spend a lot of time in internal conflict once they begin to see the pattern that their core motivations tend to create.

I do need to point out that most INFJ 8's seem to be more concerned with asserting themselves in their "fantasy lives" (idealism and imagination, spirituality or philosophy) than reality, and often have a drive to make their idealism a reality somehow. A key motivation for healthy INFJ 8 is to make the world as their Ni+Fe know it should be by reacting to the world as it presents injustices to fix. The other key motivation for INFJ 8 is to keep the beast that is within us from getting out.

Eventually, we learn to merge the two, but they are oil and water - which means it requires constant conscious acts of stirring to keep them mixed properly. Otherwise, they will separate, leaving us to operate from two opposed sets of motivations and perspectives. Very strenuous.
 
I've been thinking and pondering all of this for the past few weeks. I've dug up some interesting info, and come to come conclusions.

Nardi doesn't know me, and has never met me. He also admitted that while ENFP was his best guess based on the static data that INFJ is a close second, and the two types have similar static maps. He said my pattern was "definitely NF, leaning introverted, possibly more NFP than J" and he said he was fairly certain that if we hooked me up to the machine that an ENFP pattern would be clear. He also said that my pattern is pretty clearly N dom. However, all of that is assumption on his part. I give his assumptions a lot of expert weight, but in the end its still assumption.

However, I know Ne doms. I'm fairly certain I'm not one. They're fairly certain I'm not one.

My chiropractor knows me, and has for years. He insists I have 8 energy, just the "in your face" version of 8. I know 8's. Aside from my conscience (NF) being stronger than theirs, I keep pace with them, and generally like them when they're not locking horns with me. Even then, if they can back down and still be cool, I respect them afterwards.

Therefore, if I am an ENFP 8, I would be a very clear ENFP and a very clear 8, as those two types mesh well together... Ne being outward focused and Fi being self focused. My Ne and Fi would be "all up in your face 24/7". There wouldn't be any ambiguity about my Introvert/Extrovert axis. That's simply not the case.

When you add 8 to any type, you get a boost of E (8 is outward focused) and T (8 falls back on 5 to support it), and to some degree a reduction in J (because 8 is reactive). Add that to ENFP, and you have an extremely E, strong Te, and solid P. Add that to INFJ, and you have an ambiguous I and J, with a strong Ti. Who does that sound like? This guy.

When I get unhealthy (confused, overwhelmed, don't feel like I'm in control or have mastery enough to be confident, etc.), I go to 5 and spill mental energy and seek advice (like now) and am prone to Ni-Ti loops. When I am at my best (or simply leaning toward healthy), I am more like a 2, and my Fe shines through. When I'm at normal mode, my Se and Fe are pretty strong for an INFJ, but they're 8 driven making them seem kinda like ENFJ, but not really.

However, there is no such thing as type. There are only factors that create a whole which can be defined as type. My factors have a lot in common with several types, but, it seems clear to me that they also combine to create something atypical to all of them, which has caused the confusion. I'm not the only one who has developed atypical factors. If I was, Socionics wouldn't have come up with subtypes to try to explain the people who don't fit the standard models. Ni-ENFj is perhaps the best description I've read that could pertain to me, but this subtype could be the result of several combinations of factors... INFJ with an extroverted leaning Enneatype like 8 or 7, ENFJ with an introverted and NT leaning Enneatype like 5, etc.

Okay, I babled on long enough. If you bothered to read this, I'm sure you get my point. So, here's some info I found on INFJ + 8 to keep the thread having more value than just me wrestling with my factors and type.
Where did that INFJ + 8 information come from? I have not encountered any Enneagram proponents citing INFJ and E8 as a correlation, not commercially anyway. NONE. DjArendee has recently come to think 8's and INFJ can mesh but that is because he is Se-Ti and would hardly know anything about being an introverted intuitive. Absolutely nothing. I see a similar thing happening with ENFP's trying to fit themselves in at 5w4...not happening. I am beginning to wonder why it seems that Ne-Fi has so much trouble seeing where it belongs in both MBTI and Enneagram. Fi-Ne has a similar problem. My particular theory is that Ne simply can't stop generating possibilities, connecting dots and jumping frenetically from one conclusion to the next...without ever making a choice. Ni does not work like this...it is convergent, not divergent. Ne is an explosion, a supernova...Ni is an implosion...a black hole.

You change your mind seemingly every other paragraph, with weird speculation and rationalizations that seem more about making something fit that obviously does not...its disorienting to me, an Ni dominant. Frankly, I think it makes a mockery of existing Enneagram and MBTI theory. On a Ni-Ti loop an INFJ would be pacing around the living room in quiet contemplation (Ti) not debating it Te style online, while soliciting advice from others. This more fits an Ne-Fi-Te pattern.

Nardi doesn't know you but the pattern that has persisted for the entire length of this thread is consistent with Ne, as he has mentioned for you. Still you persist in the face of the evidence of Ne. There has been a constant generation of possibilities, expanding definitions and wild speculation...all without a definite choice. It has been spurred on by comments that have led you to further speculation, which you have encouraged. Two years on and you have come full circle back to the original impetus of conflating INFJ with type 8. Round and round we go, where we stop...nobody knows...8,6,9,4,1...pick one and be done? The "Variable-Hybrid" is a cute assessment, but you don't get to re-invent the system...you get one box. One type in your hybrid must be eliminated. My guess would be INFJ.

The number of times I went online to get an opinion of my type (INFJ) is ZERO! And I certainly did not debate it publicly for over 2 years, which betrays an intense, head-centered type to me. 6w7 sx/ ENFP would be my guess, as was mentioned much earlier in the thread. That correlation is typical for ENFP.

As an Ni dominant, I just want to scream as I read this entire thread. Even if you were Ni, which I don't see, in what universe does a Te dominant type, that strategically organizes people, facts, plans, goals and objects externally, the same as an Ni dominant, which suppresses the physical realm (Se) and relies on Ni, an "impression-gathering" subconscious process that organizes absolutely NOTHING externally? The only way that an INFJ is going to assert itself in the physical realm is through a primitive inferior function (Se), and an INFJ in the grip of inferior Se is indeed a pitiful individual to behold. The amount of energy that would be required to push Te and Se to a level supplanting the existing dominant functions is not possible, and it would never come close to those types that have relied on Te dominance for their entire lives. You write with your dominant hand for a reason. Moreover, ENTJ, ESTJ and ESTP do not have feeling in the first two functions, and only ESTP has it in tertiary. Dominant and auxiliary usually tell the story and Ni-Fe cannot be mistaken for Te dominant without auxiliary or tertiary feeling (ENTJ/ESTJ). A field marshal would last MUCH longer than a bookworm on a battlefield, even if said bookworm had the battle plans.
 
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Anyone can be INFJ. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9. Or more accurately yes.
 
Anyone can be INFJ. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9. Or more accurately yes.

Ime, No. Never saw an 8, nor a 7 being an INFJ irl.
 
Well, I never saw a 4 either.
 
Well, I never saw a 4 either.

Lots of them, actually it's one of the most common types for E4s, ime. I know at least two very well, and i'm also one.
As 8s goes, ENFJ i can certainly see it happening, although i'm not sure i've met one.
 
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Most of the 8s I've known were ENTJs, ISFJs, ESTPs, ESFPs, ESTJs, ENTPs, and ISTJs. I doubt there are INFJ 8s but I should never say never. I just find that most 8s tend to be "thinkers" and "extroverts". But I would say that the 8 is a pretty rare enneagram in general. I've met a lot of 7s, 6s, and 3s that have mistaken themselves for 8s. It's definitely one of the most mistyped enneagrams too.
 
I actually got typed as an 8w9 by a yoga lady at my mom's work who does enneagram. I'm not sure though, knowing me 9w8 seems a bit more appropriate. Although I do have fuck with me and I will burn down your house moments all too often, or I get frustrated and go fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk, startles people. Like I can't contain myself I just end up screaming fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk and then I'm fine after. I collect weapons too.
 
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Well, really it depends what you define "8" as. The enneagram system has nebulous origins, and as a result, there's no going back to the "source" to clear things up. Oscar Ichazo was responsible for a lot of the mapping of points of the enneagram symbols to personality types, but Claudio Naranjo brought this to the USA as far as I know, and fleshed it out considerably into a format more recognizable today. Ichazo's system used 3 types apparently, so something akin to tritype. Naranjo's system uses lines of disintegration/integration (it's unclear if Ichazo's did). Modern tools like the RHETI are further refinements.

Generally the image the 8 portraits evoke look more like, say, Se-dominants and Te-dominants. They are portrayed as somewhat out of touch with tenderness often, highly instinctual, repressing fear and aversion and almost instead having a forward movement of lustfulness. They reflect the idea that reality is full of dualities and that the only outcome to face these dualities which threaten one's ability to exist harmoniously, while also suppressing the fears they evoke, is a constant forceful conquest (needn't be violent at all necessarily). Note that this isn't necessarily the type out to prove itself against danger --- lust is not exactly the opposite of fear in terms of negation (which is closer to CP 6) but is rather a psychological opposite of sorts (moving away from~fear, moving towards ~ lust). INTJs who think they are E8 might be better known as E7s, as E7 can be quite the forecaster/visionary.

I take a bit of a different view to the idea that E8s are "rare" --I'd agree they are frequently mistyped, but that is as much because I don't think they are the first crowd to be attracted to such settings as this forum, and also because the portrayal is often butchered -- "The Challenger" anyone?
It's not really non-understandable that CP 6 gets mistyped as this is the countertype to fear, and it's the true opposer of fear, a title which people think goes to the 8.

I also generally reject the idea that CP 6 is somehow a more fearful version of the E8. That's a useless portrayal, as it's essentially invalidating the need to have two separate types. Rather, it's safe to say E8 is not even part of the fear triad for a reason, and thus its struggle isn't at all directly with fear.
 
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Which Enneagram type am I?8?2?or5?

... and then I read this...
I was just a secondary 1 student and I was very interested in learning about the enneagram
Well...I took a test , then it shows me as a 2w3,a few days later and I tried again ,the results were 8w7
I found type 2's description quite accurate to me but I also found myself like aggressive 8s
Because I didn't enjoy my school life so nowadays I am starting to stay quiet and try to observe every single detail happening ,like quiet 5s
The thing is ,how can I possibly pocess 2's caring,5's observing and 8's leadership and aggressiveness ?
 
If you were talking about a tritype, then my core could either be 2 or 8
I was totally confused , I often feel guilty when I found myself not performing as a considerate friend but I enjoy leading and controlling
Nowadays ,my classmates started to rebel against me and followed another girl (which is a 3,I am sure of it) I was full of rage ,I hated that classmate right in the core, so I retreated ,stayed quiet, and now trying to figure out what was happening and plotting to revenge . I was no longer that passionate leader , but a quiet,observant scholar
WHAT THE HELL WAS HAPPENING TO ME???I am totally confused