Do you believe in pre-destiny?
- Thread starter Bird
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Okay, I had to think about this one for a minute or two. I said yes. I believe that there are lessons you are supposed to learn in this life and people who have walked with you before. I don't think your actual choices are predestined but I think some elements of your life are already in place. I think events unfold to allow you to make different choices--to see the world in a different way, to allow your spirit to grow and mature if you are capable of finding the courage to make those changes. I think you are meant to know certain people, that indefinable sense of comfort and knowing you feel when you meet them--something about their spirit calls to you. I think there are patterns and random events. I believe in duality. I think your spirit is ever evolving until you decide to allow it to go dormant. I believe in seeing the world without limiting myself but find that I am better at the within (known) stuff than the without (unknown) stuff--to embrace the unknown is to let go of your own definitions of what is.
Destiny:
1. The events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.
2. The hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate.
Although I can understand and respect aspects of your explanation I often think as a human race we have to justify the things that happen in our life. We have an inherent need to understand and explain those events that happen such as meeting a unique person, dealing with a tragedy and learning from an experience. It's so ingrained in our society we even have colloquialisms to help express this. Life is random.
I'm forced to say yes
here's why; as strange as it seems, major turning points/events in my life have been presented to me in my dreams.
They usually appear months ahead (almost as a warning), dreams which are, if you'd allow me, in HD. Not necessarily in the way i want things to occur. Talk about Deja-Vu ,big time....
I'll know when i have those dreams. It feels awkward waking up in the morning. Is it Fate??
woops, voted as "no" there by mistake...!!!
here's why; as strange as it seems, major turning points/events in my life have been presented to me in my dreams.
They usually appear months ahead (almost as a warning), dreams which are, if you'd allow me, in HD. Not necessarily in the way i want things to occur. Talk about Deja-Vu ,big time....
I'll know when i have those dreams. It feels awkward waking up in the morning. Is it Fate??
woops, voted as "no" there by mistake...!!!
Pre-destiny -> lives made up before hand, our lives our set up and we have no control over it.
In a word, no, not at all. I believe we are the creator ors of our own destiny. I don't know who came up with this concept or why but it sounds like it was set up during a time where people didn't want change. We are "predestined" to be this way, so accept things how they are. Type of thing. It's outdated. Time for change 2008 barack obama slogan. I grabbed it, carried it, 360 slammed dunked into my garbage can, and took out the trashhh. Well, my wife actually took out the trash, but I did all the other things.
In a word, no, not at all. I believe we are the creator ors of our own destiny. I don't know who came up with this concept or why but it sounds like it was set up during a time where people didn't want change. We are "predestined" to be this way, so accept things how they are. Type of thing. It's outdated. Time for change 2008 barack obama slogan. I grabbed it, carried it, 360 slammed dunked into my garbage can, and took out the trashhh. Well, my wife actually took out the trash, but I did all the other things.
A belief in pre-destiny would be a belief that could not be proven.
"Religious (or symbolic) statements...refer with out exception to things that cannot be established as physical facts" C.G.Jung
I am more comfortable with the concept of synchronicity, the idea that the events of the outer world have meaning to the inner world of the individual.
"God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my willful path violently and recklessly, all things which upset my subjective views, plans and intentions and change the course of my life for better or worse" C.G. Jung
"Religious (or symbolic) statements...refer with out exception to things that cannot be established as physical facts" C.G.Jung
I am more comfortable with the concept of synchronicity, the idea that the events of the outer world have meaning to the inner world of the individual.
"God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my willful path violently and recklessly, all things which upset my subjective views, plans and intentions and change the course of my life for better or worse" C.G. Jung
I am not talking about "justifying the things that happen in our life" per se. The event(s) (in your definition) forces/creates the ability for the indivdual to make choices. The choices we make are both random and fixed. You are a product of the sum total of your experiences which gives a sense of the controlled aspect of life's events but there is that random element that makes predicting the actual choice with certainty impossible. I think that the basic structure of our life is sketched to a degree with an underlying pattern--something misunderstood as "destiny". We become enamored with this idea that all can be known, ignoring that there is also the element of the unknown. I think you can begin to allow your spirit to grow when you look at the seemingly randomness of life and try and see the lessons that are trying to be taught to you. However, the duality of that occurance means that you have to let go of the belief that what you are seeking lies within the realm of the known (to you). I think it is a life long search because the known and the unknown (to you) are ever changing, it is the individual who stops noticing this event.
What is pre-destiny? What is destiny?
I personally believe such concept is subjective and may tend to lack solid justification of its existence. It might also be a projection when we find it hard to accept the truths of causality. Life is just a matter of cause and effect.
I personally believe such concept is subjective and may tend to lack solid justification of its existence. It might also be a projection when we find it hard to accept the truths of causality. Life is just a matter of cause and effect.
I believe in pre-destiny in a kind of abstractish way. Kind of domino effect/ spider web-ish/ pool table balls.
Say for example, a rock falls from a cliff. As it falls, other things are also happening in time. The air is flowing, birds are flying, people are being born. They share seconds at which the world is living and the rock is falling. Let's go back to the rock (before I get distracted, heh). On it's way down, it touches particles of air that happened to be at that location at that time. They crossed paths not only physical, but in time. I argue that if one traces their lines of "time-paths" back a few minutes before they cross, then you would find two rays heading forward in time, not yet crossed, but they were already heading towards each other, and they would eventually intersect.
They held individual paths which I view to be "linear" (I'm just using linear for simplicity, it's much more complicated in my head and I haven't thought about it in words yet) meaning that all that object's properties and decisions form it's own unique line. However, it does not exist alone in the world. There are other trillions of things that have also formed their lines, and by extrapolating their lines, one can predict what things will cross paths, what things will happen. These intersections can be called "fate". They were going to happen seeing as how one had chosen it's path, and another object has chosen it's path, but they were chosen independently of the other. It just so happens that they, in having chosen the way they are, may be "fated" to cross paths.
Going back to the rock example to show kind of what I am saying: The rock is falling, is falling, and it falls on a big boulder at the bottom. The rock shatters into a million pieces! (I'm no physics major.... insert whatever is valid in the laws of the physical world). Well, I argue that the boulder's conditions and the rocks conditions made it so they were eventually going to experience the event between each other, just as the air particles experienced their events with the rock's surface slipping past them.
So I view the world as a domino effect, with each domino able to form it's own decisions and having conditions, thereby forming it's own "line". And when you put all these lines together they form a web like thing in which some lines never cross, others cross many times, some only cross one, because each "line" actes like a pool table ball, bouncing off each thing that it impacts. Each impact can represent a change in the objects desions.
This is the crap I think about as I daydream... This entertains me, though it's my nonsense.
Say for example, a rock falls from a cliff. As it falls, other things are also happening in time. The air is flowing, birds are flying, people are being born. They share seconds at which the world is living and the rock is falling. Let's go back to the rock (before I get distracted, heh). On it's way down, it touches particles of air that happened to be at that location at that time. They crossed paths not only physical, but in time. I argue that if one traces their lines of "time-paths" back a few minutes before they cross, then you would find two rays heading forward in time, not yet crossed, but they were already heading towards each other, and they would eventually intersect.
They held individual paths which I view to be "linear" (I'm just using linear for simplicity, it's much more complicated in my head and I haven't thought about it in words yet) meaning that all that object's properties and decisions form it's own unique line. However, it does not exist alone in the world. There are other trillions of things that have also formed their lines, and by extrapolating their lines, one can predict what things will cross paths, what things will happen. These intersections can be called "fate". They were going to happen seeing as how one had chosen it's path, and another object has chosen it's path, but they were chosen independently of the other. It just so happens that they, in having chosen the way they are, may be "fated" to cross paths.
Going back to the rock example to show kind of what I am saying: The rock is falling, is falling, and it falls on a big boulder at the bottom. The rock shatters into a million pieces! (I'm no physics major.... insert whatever is valid in the laws of the physical world). Well, I argue that the boulder's conditions and the rocks conditions made it so they were eventually going to experience the event between each other, just as the air particles experienced their events with the rock's surface slipping past them.
So I view the world as a domino effect, with each domino able to form it's own decisions and having conditions, thereby forming it's own "line". And when you put all these lines together they form a web like thing in which some lines never cross, others cross many times, some only cross one, because each "line" actes like a pool table ball, bouncing off each thing that it impacts. Each impact can represent a change in the objects desions.
This is the crap I think about as I daydream... This entertains me, though it's my nonsense.
I do think we have a destiny, one we are invited into. It is not predetermined by any means, it is a choice. I also think it has less to do with specifics of our lives per se (that can be totally random, practically speaking) but more with a mode of living. That is where our true destiny lies...the mode of living...the rest can (and will) be all over the place.
I always cringe when people say "God has a plan for your life" because our minds seem to snap into this or that specific bit of minutia in a very limited way. The "plan" is really a very different kind of thing.
I always cringe when people say "God has a plan for your life" because our minds seem to snap into this or that specific bit of minutia in a very limited way. The "plan" is really a very different kind of thing.
From NCIS tonight:
"Anyone can achieve their fullest potential.
Who we are might be pre-determined but the path we follow is always of our own choosing.
We should never allow our fears, or the expectations of others to set the frontiers of our destiny.
Your destiny can't be changed, but it can be challenged.
Every man is born as many men and dies as a single man."
interesting
"The apostle Paul increases our understanding of the “purpose” in Romans 8:28 in the following verses. “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30)." quoted
"Have you been predestinated? If you have been born again spiritually and are being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ you have been predestinated according to the Bible."
also quoted, abideinChrist.com
predestinated?
"Anyone can achieve their fullest potential.
Who we are might be pre-determined but the path we follow is always of our own choosing.
We should never allow our fears, or the expectations of others to set the frontiers of our destiny.
Your destiny can't be changed, but it can be challenged.
Every man is born as many men and dies as a single man."
interesting
"The apostle Paul increases our understanding of the “purpose” in Romans 8:28 in the following verses. “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30)." quoted
"Have you been predestinated? If you have been born again spiritually and are being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ you have been predestinated according to the Bible."
also quoted, abideinChrist.com
predestinated?
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There is natural law and consequences and pattens and interconnections and things like that..
There is order...But I don't think that as individuals, there is any plan laid out before we are born...But I think this way because I am not a religious or even spiritual person.
It doesn't make life meaningless to me to not believe in a divine plan of some sort for my life.. I think it makes it more purposeful--because I am solely responsible for my actions and their consequences and any lessons that can be learned as a result.
I've always taken issue with the Christian idea of predestination.. because what kind of God would knowingly create human beings who he knows are just going to end up in hell? Especially when it mentions that hell was not created for humans. And how can we be responsible for our decison to not believe and follow God--resulting in eternal punishment-- when God has already predestined some of us for hell and others for heaven through the gift of faith?
I hope those questions don't offend.. I'm seriously curious about it and I've spoken with pastors who couldn't give me a satisfactory answer. It's probably going to result in a derail.. but I figured it was worth asking here since someone posted about Christian predestination.
There is order...But I don't think that as individuals, there is any plan laid out before we are born...But I think this way because I am not a religious or even spiritual person.
It doesn't make life meaningless to me to not believe in a divine plan of some sort for my life.. I think it makes it more purposeful--because I am solely responsible for my actions and their consequences and any lessons that can be learned as a result.
I've always taken issue with the Christian idea of predestination.. because what kind of God would knowingly create human beings who he knows are just going to end up in hell? Especially when it mentions that hell was not created for humans. And how can we be responsible for our decison to not believe and follow God--resulting in eternal punishment-- when God has already predestined some of us for hell and others for heaven through the gift of faith?
I hope those questions don't offend.. I'm seriously curious about it and I've spoken with pastors who couldn't give me a satisfactory answer. It's probably going to result in a derail.. but I figured it was worth asking here since someone posted about Christian predestination.
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I've never heard of predestiny before, but I do believe our future has already been determined by cause and effect...that free will is an illusion, etc.
Determinism seems to be the non religious version of predestiny.
Determinism seems to be the non religious version of predestiny.
@ acd
Good questions, since you asked for me to give my input I'll try best to explain. These are questions that makes allot of believers who claim to be followers in Christ squirm, but they are also serious questions that need to be tackled by the horns and answered truthfully.
Let me ask you a question.
Why did the government create prisons and jails knowing that some people will end up in there? The answer:
Protection, Punishment and Justice.
Hell was created for the devil and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41).
Their crime? Rebellion against God. Now people choose to go there by doing same by rejecting Christ. This is what is known as the blasphemy of the holy spirit which is the one sin that is unforgivable (Matthew 12:31).
Now unlike devil and his fallen angels we were given the gift of redemption through Christ who died for those that sincerely follow him.
I'm probably sounding like a broken record by now... but I'm going to carry on none the less because this is where it gets interesting.
Now concerning predestination;
This is a concept that is really tricky to understand and to explain, but I'll give it my best shot anyway.
God chooses us, we don't choose him. God predestines who choose to follow him. How? Because he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He already knows whats going to happen and what choices we will make (Ephesians 1:4).
God gave us responsibility over our actions (which is an given attribute of us being made in his image) which is often mistaken for free will (when I say free will, I'm referring to free will over our spiritual selves and destination).
Our hearts are sinful by nature (as the result of the fall) therefore we don't have the ability (or the right) to choose him. When you think about it, it turns the tables around when you start choosing God, because it puts you in a position that is higher in authority than God himself, which doesn't make sense. This sort of thinking is the result of sin and how it distorts our perception of God's authority and God's attributes.
Salvation is based on God's grace alone (faith is a gift of the holy spirit), not on an individuals efforts. Which is is ultimately the difference between the Christian faith and the Christian religion. Faith is about God, Religion is about Me (my works, my efforts, my righteousness, following the golden rule etc.). With God's grace, the individual doesn't need religion, because out of love for God followers in Christ will keep his commandments and repent of their sins. They will serve him because by grace God has given them a new heart and a new perspective on life around them.
Examples of God choosing us (or finding us) can be found in the parable of The Lost Sheep and the parable of The Lost Coin (Luke 15:1 - 10)
Is God Choosing Unjust?
No. Romans 9:20 - 24.
God is love, but first and foremost God is just.
God is perfect and sovereign, we are not. We sealed our fate when Adam and Eve turned against God.
Since we rebelled against God, god gave us a gift that he didn't give the devil nor his angles, and that is his grace (2 Peter 2:4).
(Romans 9:15) - For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
(John 15:16) - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
I will say now that God is complex and is beyond our understanding.
However 'God works in mysterious ways' is a term I dislike using because it is used as an escape route to get away from answering complicated questions. The only people who say that 'God works in mysterious ways' are the ones who haven't sat down and read the bible properly and rely on others to explain the gospel to them. I hope that I have managed to answer at least some of your questions. If you have any more, drop me a line.
Please remember that my views are Calvinist and differ from Arminianism. So not all Christians will give you the same answers as I did. At the end of the day it is your choice to choose what you make of this response.
I am not a minister nor a scholar (obviously), just a nerd that enjoys reading and researching the bible and informing people about the gospel to whomever asks about it.
T
The Jester
Uhm yeah, but the government doesn't have control over our behaviour like a 'god' does.
OT: I do not believe in pre-destinity.
I believe that the situational and environmental influences are random, but that a very strong factor is our own will.
Please read the rest of my post. God gave us responsibilities over our actions, that includes our behavior.
T