Did Christ DIE for EVERYONE?

[Flavus Aquila]

Well, you obviously don't understand what grace is, but let's just deal with the first part then.

How do you still assert that Christ died for everyone, when he clearly said:

"I lay down my life for THE SHEEP," AND "YOU are NOT of MY SHEEP." ?
Please answer that question.

Christ did lay down his life for his sheep - including the one that went astray.

You quote John 10, but left out the verses that answer your question. After saying to the unbelieving jews that they are not of his sheep, he then goes on, as a shepherd, to invite them into the sheepfold:

1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; 2 but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." 6 This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. 7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them. 9 I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, 15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father." 19 There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them said, "He has a demon, and he is mad; why listen to him?" 21 Others said, "These are not the sayings of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?" 22 It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?" 33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." 39 Again they tried to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands. 40 He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John at first baptized, and there he remained. 41 And many came to him; and they said, "John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true." 42 And many believed in him there.

Does it not seem to you, that sinners are likened to straying sheep by Our Lord?
Does it not seem to you, that he came to seek that which was lost?
Are not all the sheep his, albeit with some that have wandered away out of his fold?
Is a lost sheep, not in his fold, still his?
Why would he seek a lost sheep, if it were not his?
Is there any sinner, who cannot be likened to a lost sheep?

 

[magister343]

I dont get this really. Christ had no fear, he knew he would be going to a place better than earth when he died. I suggest he was even looking forward to it.

Well so does every christian knows. That's what martyrs know, that they will raise in heaven. Indeed, Christ had no fear, and true christians have no fear. So what is the point are you trying to make?

He did not know that.

He did not go to a better place when he died.

After his death, he remained in the grave.

(The Bible and several ancient Creeds say that he descended into Hades. Some claim that this meant his soul suffered all the incomparable conscious torments that they imagine the wicked must suffer in hell. In the original Greek, however, this implies nothing more than that his physical body was buried, hidden below the surface of the ground.)

After Jesus was raised here on Earth, he declared to Mary Magdalene that he "had not yet ascended to the Father." (John 20:17) He still had not been to a better place yet.

(The only verse I can think of that could be used to defend the claim that he did go to heaven between his death and Resurrection is: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) It is, however, worth noting that the original manuscripts used absolutely no punctuation marks. Those commas are not part of inspired scripture, but merely the interpolation of fallible translators. It would be just as appropriate to translate the verse to mean "Today I truly tell you that you will be with me in Paradise [in the next age].” That way would be more compatible with the rest of scripture.)

The bible does not talk about our souls going to heaven when we die, but rather us being resurrected body and soul here on Earth and translated into incorruptible bodies to live on the New Earth when the Old Heaven and Old Earth have both passed away. Christ was the first-fruits who was raised on the 3rd day, whereas his followers must wait until his return.



Christ's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane makes it fairly clear that he was afraid, and not at all looking forward to what was about to happen.

Christians can certainly be afraid of dying, but with faith in his who will make a place for them in the age to come they can have the courage to act in spite of fear. That is far more impressive than being without fear.

 

[apemon]

He was of the One. As us all.

 

[knight in battle]

Well, you obviously don't understand what grace is, but let's just deal with the first part then.

How do you still assert that Christ died for everyone, when he clearly said:

"I lay down my life for THE SHEEP," AND "YOU are NOT of MY SHEEP." ?

Please answer that question.

It may be possible to say that they are currently not of his sheep, based on their attitude towards him.

 

[Eventhorizon]

He did not know that. - Yes he did. He was the son of God, he knew what was up.

He did not go to a better place when he died. - He eventually went to heaven. A couple of days in a grave knowing you are going to heaven is just like a big sleep, no problem.

After his death, he remained in the grave.

(The Bible and several ancient Creeds say that he descended into Hades. Some claim that this meant his soul suffered all the incomparable conscious torments that they imagine the wicked must suffer in hell. In the original Greek, however, this implies nothing more than that his physical body was buried, hidden below the surface of the ground.)

After Jesus was raised here on Earth, he declared to Mary Magdalene that he "had not yet ascended to the Father." (John 20:17) He still had not been to a better place yet. Jesus could live a thousand years knowing he would eventually end up in heaven, no problem.

(The only verse I can think of that could be used to defend the claim that he did go to heaven between his death and Resurrection is: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) It is, however, worth noting that the original manuscripts used absolutely no punctuation marks. Those commas are not part of inspired scripture, but merely the interpolation of fallible translators. It would be just as appropriate to translate the verse to mean "Today I truly tell you that you will be with me in Paradise [in the next age].” That way would be more compatible with the rest of scripture.)

The bible does not talk about our souls going to heaven when we die, but rather us being resurrected body and soul here on Earth and translated into incorruptible bodies to live on the New Earth when the Old Heaven and Old Earth have both passed away. Christ was the first-fruits who was raised on the 3rd day, whereas his followers must wait until his return.



Christ's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane makes it fairly clear that he was afraid, and not at all looking forward to what was about to happen. A PERFECT example of a reason the bible is clearly false. How could Jesus be afraid when he knew he was going to heaven.

Christians can certainly be afraid of dying, but with faith in his who will make a place for them in the age to come they can have the courage to act in spite of fear. That is far more impressive than being without fear.

A few words needed.

 

[Barnabas]

He did not know that.

He did not go to a better place when he died.

After his death, he remained in the grave.

(The Bible and several ancient Creeds say that he descended into Hades. Some claim that this meant his soul suffered all the incomparable conscious torments that they imagine the wicked must suffer in hell. In the original Greek, however, this implies nothing more than that his physical body was buried, hidden below the surface of the ground.)

After Jesus was raised here on Earth, he declared to Mary Magdalene that he "had not yet ascended to the Father." (John 20:17) He still had not been to a better place yet.

(The only verse I can think of that could be used to defend the claim that he did go to heaven between his death and Resurrection is: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) It is, however, worth noting that the original manuscripts used absolutely no punctuation marks. Those commas are not part of inspired scripture, but merely the interpolation of fallible translators. It would be just as appropriate to translate the verse to mean "Today I truly tell you that you will be with me in Paradise [in the next age].” That way would be more compatible with the rest of scripture.)

The bible does not talk about our souls going to heaven when we die, but rather us being resurrected body and soul here on Earth and translated into incorruptible bodies to live on the New Earth when the Old Heaven and Old Earth have both passed away. Christ was the first-fruits who was raised on the 3rd day, whereas his followers must wait until his return.



Christ's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane makes it fairly clear that he was afraid, and not at all looking forward to what was about to happen.

Christians can certainly be afraid of dying, but with faith in his who will make a place for them in the age to come they can have the courage to act in spite of fear. That is far more impressive than being without fear.

I agree with just about everything you had to say with the exception that I think it's fair to say Jesus knew what was Going on prior to his death and that he knew what would happen during his death and after his Resurrection(unless your saying that Jesus wasn't actually in heaven during his death and he didn't "know that" because it wasn't true).

A few words needed.

I just want to add something to your comments, Jesus didn't just walk up to the Romans and fall over dead and get up three days later. He was beaten mocked and tortured to death in the mortifying way possible. To say it wasn't a big deal just cause he knew the ending didn't make that crown of thorns any easier to bear.

 

[LucyJr]

"Abba, Father, all things are possible to you. Please remove this cup from me. However, not what I desire, but what you desire."

Doesn’t that suggest that he was afraid?

In light of the fact that Jesus will was in submission to God's will, it was impossible for Jesus to feel or experience any kind of fear.
So I don't think He was afraid.

Does that diminish Christ for you somehow if he had fear?

Yes, but He had no fear, and therefore He is worthy of praise.

 

[LucyJr]

Christ's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane makes it fairly clear that he was afraid, and not at all looking forward to what was about to happen.

Christians can certainly be afraid of dying, but with faith in his who will make a place for them in the age to come they can have the courage to act in spite of fear. That is far more impressive than being without fear.

Fear is sin. If Jesus Christ had fear, Jesus was sinful.
Do you know why Jesus had no fear? Because he had the fear of the Lord, true reverence. One fear, the good one, counter the bad and sinful fear.

Christ's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane makes it fairly clear that he was afraid

I don't see how that is true. Could you explain?

 

[Skarekrow]

In light of the fact that Jesus will was in submission to God's will, it was impossible for Jesus to feel or experience any kind of fear.
So I don't think He was afraid.


Yes, but He had no fear, and therefore He is worthy of praise.

Fear is sin. If Jesus Christ had fear, Jesus was sinful.
Do you know why Jesus had no fear? Because he had the fear of the Lord, true reverence. One fear, the good one, counter the bad and sinful fear.


I don't see how that is true. Could you explain?

If He wasn’t afraid Lucy then what was He when He spoke to God asking him to take this cup from him? Lazy? lol

How is fear a sin? Fear is a perfectly natural reaction of self-preservation....especially when you know you are to be tortured and crucified to death.

Like I said...sure, he knew where he would go when he died...and certainly he shouldn’t be afraid of the unknown in the afterlife...but why couldn’t he fear the pain and torture?

That makes him lesser in your eyes because why?

This is the kind of crap that makes no sense Lucy.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

He was of the One. As us all.

That's a short post, and perhaps I am reading a nuance into it that isn't there - so excuse any assumptions.

Why is it so weird to imagine that the "One", who could conceive of a universe so complex, as to eventually harbour beings with intelligence and a desire to know about their source, would not in a kindly way try to make knowledge of itself available in a direct, but very accessible way?

Aquinas once remarked that a beautiful aspect of revelation is that it gives even the most simple, humble and unlearned a surer and truer knowledge of eternal things, than any brilliant, proud philosopher could gleam by himself in a lifetime.

I just post my thoughts in this line because there seems to be a certain repugnance to the notion of God making direct, personal (personable) friendship with us.

 

[apemon]

I just post my thoughts in this line because there seems to be a certain repugnance to the notion of God making direct, personal (personable) friendship with us.

I do not disagree. IMO these things are said many ways, the christ-conciousness or buddhi in all is the same. All are called, it is a choice to listen.

 

[magister343]

Fear is not sin. Only acts of the will can be sinful. Fear is not an act of the will. One does not choose to fear, but rather chooses how to react to fear.

Fear could be considered a form of temptation. It is not sinful to be tempted, only to willfully give into the temptation or to willingly place oneself into a position in order to be tempted.

The bible declares that Christ was tempted, but did not sin. He likewise feared, but had the courage to do what needed to be done rather than give into to fear's temptation to flee from his mission.

 

[Rcs6r]

Jesus was a shepard, right? What if the whole situation... was literally about sheep?

GOD'S CHOSEN HAVE BEEN SAVED!

 

[SovereignGrace]

The point of stating the Biblical truth that Christ did not die for everyone, is NOT to take away the hope of those who trust in Christ.

It's to take away the damning falsehood that everyone is safe in their unbelieving state.

It's to remind people of what their CONSCIENCE already tells them--that the JUSTICE and WRATH of GOD is hanging over the head of each and every sinner, and that one needs MERCY if he is escape from God's wrath.

It is to undercut the damning notion that the SINNER "holds all the cards" in salvation.

It is to MAGNIFY the holy JUSTICE of God, in sending his Son to die in the FIRST PLACE!

What kind of God would send his Son to die, ONLY to make salvation POSSIBLE?

The truth that Christ only died for the sake of his elect, condemns sinful MAN, and JUSTIFIES GOD.

And the fact that you HATE that, only DEMONSTRATES the fact that you are UTTERLY DEVOID of spiritual understanding.

BUT GOD, in his MERCY, and GOD, in his GRACE, has sent the GOOD SHEPHERD to DIE for the SHEEP.

And the SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE, and THEY FOLLOW HIM.

If you do not BELIEVE on him, it's BECAUSE you are NOT of HIS SHEEP.

But IF you BELIEVE on JESUS CHRIST, AS he is REVEALED in the SCRIPTURES, then you already HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and PEACE with GOD.

It is NOT over yet.

God may YET save you.

Seek the LORD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND.

For he will ABUNDANTLY PARDON.

 

[bionic]

Nope. He only died for those who believe in him.

 

[say what]

Hell is going to be crowded.

 

[j654dgj7]

Hell is going to be crowded.

Haha, apparently! I've always thought that the South Park version of Hell where every one except Mormons go to Hell, was hilarious. That's sort of like what we're being told here, I guess.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

The point of stating the Biblical truth that Christ did not die for everyone, is NOT to take away the hope of those who trust in Christ.

It's to take away the damning falsehood that everyone is safe in their unbelieving state.

It's to remind people of what their CONSCIENCE already tells them--that the JUSTICE and WRATH of GOD is hanging over the head of each and every sinner, and that one needs MERCY if he is escape from God's wrath.

It is to undercut the damning notion that the SINNER "holds all the cards" in salvation.

It is to MAGNIFY the holy JUSTICE of God, in sending his Son to die in the FIRST PLACE!

What kind of God would send his Son to die, ONLY to make salvation POSSIBLE?

The truth that Christ only died for the sake of his elect, condemns sinful MAN, and JUSTIFIES GOD.

And the fact that you HATE that, only DEMONSTRATES the fact that you are UTTERLY DEVOID of spiritual understanding.

BUT GOD, in his MERCY, and GOD, in his GRACE, has sent the GOOD SHEPHERD to DIE for the SHEEP.

And the SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE, and THEY FOLLOW HIM.

If you do not BELIEVE on him, it's BECAUSE you are NOT of HIS SHEEP.

But IF you BELIEVE on JESUS CHRIST, AS he is REVEALED in the SCRIPTURES, then you already HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and PEACE with GOD.

It is NOT over yet.

God may YET save you.

Seek the LORD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND.

For he will ABUNDANTLY PARDON.

Where do you fit charity, or love, into your schema?

I say YOUR schema, because the NT reads very differently to the slant you have gleaned from it.

I am not naysaying that there is the reality of threat, hell and damnation; but heaven cannot be sought simply through aversion to hell. There must be an element of affinity for God in the soul; and this charity is what endures when faith and knowledge pass away, as St Paul teaches. Is it then not more imperative to communicate the love of Christ, than the fear of hell?

 

[bionic]

Hell is going to be crowded.

and what if you believe in reincarnation?

 

[say what]

and what if you believe in reincarnation?

It's interesting...because I believe in past lives- which means reincarnation...but also Heaven (because I want to see my loved ones again). I don't like having contradicting beliefs...I don't know how to amend this!