Critique the Candidates

[Shai Gar]

That is actually one of the arguments that Republicans constantly make against Obama. Socialism is a dirty word in America.

It is in Australia too... I laugh at the poor people, or Christians who "love capitalism" and complain about the current system because they have no money or that others have no money and no aid, informing them that they HAD the choice to vote for communism or socialism and everyone decided not to.


But what does Europe have to do with socialism? That attitude seems like a "well they think drinking our urine is bad, so WE WILL DO IT, FUCK THEM!"

 

[Satya]

But what does Europe have to do with socialism

Western Europe embraces socialistic principles.

That attitude seems like a "well they think drinking our urine is bad, so WE WILL DO IT, FUCK THEM!"

A helluva lot of people in China drink their own urine.

 

[Shai Gar]

Western Europe embraces socialistic principles.

Is that a matter of following socialism, or Christian ideology?

Socialism was born from the bible. Christ advocated full out communism*. For Americans** to say that they are Christian, and against communism is laughable.



* Most evident is the parable of the vineyard, I know it's about the soul, but it's the most obvious in what he said, everything else that backs my argument is strewn within the gospels.


** not talking about all americans, just the ones who say they're christian, and they're against communism.

 

[Satya]

Is that a matter of following socialism, or Christian ideology?

Uhhhhh...that sure as hell isn't the song and dance they sell us in America. The Bible was one of the first texts to establish the concept of property. Monarchy was established around the idea that a king was God ordained to rule over the lands and people.

Socialism was born from the bible. Christ advocated full out communism*. For Americans** to say that they are Christian, and against communism is laughable.

Um...socialism came from Karl Marx who argued that religion was the opiate of the people. What kind of history are they teaching you guys down there in Australia?

 

[Shai Gar]

Actually one of the prophets was the first recorded person to declaim the notion of a monarchy, saying that if they had a king, he'd abuse them completely. God only gave in because the people wanted it so much... Reread the bible, or read some thomas paine - common sense.

Marxism came from Karl Marx, but the idea of what we know as socialism, they were already in Christianity.

• a belief that capitalism is based on the exploitation[3] of workers by the owners of the means of production
• a belief that people's consciousness of the conditions of their lives reflects the dominant ideology which is in turn shaped by material conditions and relations of production
• an understanding of class in terms of differing relations of production, and as a particular position within such relations
• an understanding of material conditions and social relations as historically malleable
• a view of history according to which class struggle, the evolving conflict between classes with opposing interests, structures each historical period and drives historical change
• a belief that this dialectical historical process will ultimately result in a replacement of the current class structure of society with a system that manages society for the good of all, resulting in the dissolution of the class structure and its support (more often than not including the nation state)

Socialism has been around a long time before it was given that name. Perhaps the american education system is lacking if they've not taught you that. However if you want to learn more there's the internet, and a good library.

I really do recommend rereading the old testament, specifically the parts before saul was anointed.

 

[Shai Gar]

God never set down monarchy as hereditary rulers, MAN did. The bible backs that up.

6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said: 'Give us a king to judge us.' And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. {P} 7 And the LORD said unto Samuel: 'Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not be king over them. 8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, in that they have forsaken Me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice; howbeit thou shalt earnestly forewarn them, and shalt declare unto them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.' {S}

10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. {S}

11 And he said: 'This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them unto him, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint them unto him for captains of thousands, and captains of fifties; and to plow his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and the instruments of his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks; and ye shall be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king whom ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not answer you in that day.'

19 But the people refused to hearken unto the voice of Samuel; and they said: 'Nay; but there shall be a king over us;

 

[Satya]

Marxism came from Karl Marx, but the idea of what we know as socialism, they were already in Christianity.

I guess it comes down to how you define socialism. With the incredibly broad definition you seem to be using, then I could agree that it began with the Bible, and probably substantially long before that with other religions.

However, if you are talking about modern socialism, then Karl Marx was the originator. And that is what I was referring to.

 

[frozen_water]

* Most evident is the parable of the vineyard, I know it's about the soul, but it's the most obvious in what he said, everything else that backs my argument is strewn within the gospels.

You do realize you basically just said "well, I know the author's intent is clearly explained, but I'm just gonna wrench this out of context and laugh at the people who don't want to read their own views into it," don't you? You're a short step from taking "the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" from Psalm 14 and insisting that the bible was the first text to insist upon atheism.

Christian government is without question a dictatorship, not communist, and even that isn't an earthly-government outline. Jesus had a lot to say about church government--but not very much about civil government. There's an argument to be made for socialism I think, but only within the church... communism and socialism are different, though, and I don't even think it suggests a type of universal economic system... unless you count helping the poor, but that's independent of government.

Government and economic policy are different... socialism and communism are different... frankly, I don't know what you're talking about Shai.

 

[Shai Gar]

Actually Jesus didn't have very much to say about church government at all, Paul said most of that...

Don't know what I'm saying? Re-read...

Marx wasn't the first for modern political socialism either, the english had a lot of writers on the topic, most of whom are on my shelves behind me.

 

[Quinlan]

What are the Presidential and VP candidates mbti types?

 

[Satya]

McCain - ESTJ
Palin - ENFJ
Obama - ENFJ
Biden - ESTJ

 

[Shaz]

is that your personal take on it, or does it come from some website?

There was a specific topic about it in the intj forum :
Obama an INTJ? From Keirsey's website...

Obviously, coming from the intj forum, it is 5 pages long, but very interesting (there's some about McCain at the beginning too, they type him mostly as an ISTP)

Even on the intj forum most people type Obama as an ENFJ though, and I think it's most likely.

edit : also, how is Palin an ENFJ? She looks quite SJ to me...

 

[G.Kai]

Actually, I though Obama was Irish when I first heard his name. From the way his wife describes his behavior at home, he might be a P.

 

[G.Kai]

is that your personal take on it, or does it come from some website?

There was a specific topic about it in the intj forum :
Obama an INTJ? From Keirsey's website...

Obviously, coming from the intj forum, it is 5 pages long, but very interesting (there's some about McCain at the beginning too, they type him mostly as an ISTP)

Even on the intj forum most people type Obama as an ENFJ though, and I think it's most likely.

edit : also, how is Palin an ENFJ? She looks quite SJ to me...

See this is the thing with typology. We tend to view anyone with a high F score as a possible NF, because we're so used to identifying extraverted NFs by their outward emotionalism.

As for Sarah Palin, I would go by the fact that although she is emotionally charismatic, she is emotional over principles - and even mentioned her comittment to regaining lost democratic principles in her acceptance speech. Whenever I see someone putting principles ahead of people, I see it more as an S trait than a J characteristic. I have also known NTPs who come across as principle-oriented, but I also see them conflicted when they have to make a decision about a person they care about, this is, of course, with the notable exception of the ENTJ, who can fall either way on this.

I believe both the ENTJ and the ESFP present interesting challenges to the S-N dichotomy.

 

[frozen_water]

that's interesting... I actually tend to type heavy F's as SF's in my head. The only two NF I actually thought was an Ns right off the bat was a friend of mine who's pretty clearly F and likes historical/political theories and discussions. I was pretty surrounded by Ts growing up, though, so I don't really have a great sample size for that.

yep shai... reread and I still don't know what you're talking about. Jesus yelled at the pharisees for a lot of things... that's why I say he said a lot about church government. Regarding civil government though he never said much about. Jews thought that he would bring down the Roman government... that was the Jewish expectation of the messiah at the time though... he himself never did anything about them though.

Regardless, Satya was right. That idea is not pushed in the US, and it's far more likely that Europe turned socialist for some other reason than biblical principles.

 

[Shaz]

and it's far more likely that Europe turned socialist for some other reason than biblical principles.

The idea of something like socialism in France appeared with the Enlightenment (18th century) and the revolution, which was clearly against the church (more as an institution than as a religion, but still, the Enlightenment relied heavily on N principles as opposed to biblical principles - though some of them obviously cross).

 

[Quinlan]

McCain: ESTJ
Obama: ENFJ
Biden: ESTJ
Palin: Sexy Librarian I mean ESFJ

 

[Satya]

McCain: ESTJ
Obama: ENFJ
Biden: ESTJ
Palin: Sexy Librarian I mean ESFJ

You think Palin is a sensor?

 

[Quinlan]

I haven't seen much of her but she comes across as very "community" focused rather than global, "Hockey mom" and church-going. She seems SJ to me, in fact Conservatives on the whole come across as being SJ.

 

[Quinlan]

Thinking about it, what a masterstroke by the Republicans, she may not be the most qualified but she is remarkable and thats all that matters, people talk about her and that puts her at top of mind for a lot of people which is all you really need in an election.