Any followers of Christ as pissed off at other so called "Christians" as I am?

[LucyJr]

Even with God we still have determinism. Determinism is different from predeterminism, and also different from determination.

If no better reason, there's still the fact that the world has a state which presents specific options and consequences, i.e. you were born and have to make choices which are framed only by the options presented to you, and by how you're equipped to reason out your choices.

The only way to prove otherwise would be to go back in time to any point and show that you could have made any other choice besides one already made, given the stipulation that you don't get to carry any knowledge with you. You'd have to go back to the exact same state you were in when you made the choice, no hindsight allowed, and manage to do something different.

Yes, agree. With God certainly we have a degree of determinism, due to the options and parameters we have to chose, which are limited.
But I think whithout God there would be no free will absolutely, just full determinism. The power of free will itself would be inexistent.

 

[LucyJr]

The Hindu's solved this one. In the beginning there was only God therefor everything must have been grafted from God. Your argument would hold true had God never existed. I run into this problem a lot when people think the opposite and antithesis are one in the same.

Absence != UnGod
Absence = not God

I think I understand what you are saying. You bring a very interesting point, which strenghten my point nevertheless.
My argument holds true only if God exist, because one other way you could take my argument is this:

If God wouldn't exist, then you could not have the free will to disagree with me or to argument against me. But you just disagreed with me before and argumented against my point, therefore:
1. Your argument fails.
2. God exist of course.

 

[sprinkles]

Yes, agree. With God certainly we have a degree of determinism, due to the options and parameters we have to chose, which are limited.
But I think whithout God there would be no free will absolutely, just full determinism. The power of free will itself would be inexistent.

Are you able to articulate why this is so?

 

[LucyJr]

Are you able to articulate why this is so?

I base my arguments on the premise that free will exist only if God exist. Just like morality exist only if God exist. Or an other argument could be made between free will and morality. If there is no free will, then there is no morality, and if there is no morality, there is no God.
This crucial premise had been recognised as evident from a logical standpoint by all major philosophers.
What atheists philosophers don't agree usually is that we actually have free will. They think is a ilusion.
And they argument from that, like Nietzche did:if there is no free will, there is no God.;
I think Nietzche was wrong and free will is self evident, and by the same argument, if free will exist then God exist.

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
The main premise that free will exist only if God exist
is based on the power to transcend. Transcendence is an attribute of God. Free will implies the power to transcend, to 'raise' above somethink and choose.
While on the other hand, absence of free will means absence of transcendence, the power to transcend. So everythink is determined, everything is and follows on a purely causual and blind level.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
The main premise that free will exist only if God exist
is based on the power to transcend. Transcendence is an attribute of God. Free will implies the power to transcend, to 'raise' above somethink and choose.
While on the other hand, absence of free will means absence of transcendence, the power to transcend. So everythink is determined, everything is and follows on a purely causual and blind level.

Under that premise the ability doesn't actually belong to you, unless you are also God.

It might be a free will but it isn't your will if you require God separately to dole it out to you.

 

[LucyJr]

Under that premise the ability doesn't actually belong to you, unless you are also God.

It might be a free will but it isn't your will if you require God separately to dole it out to you.

Under that premise the ability to transcend is one of the functions of choice. If God exist, he give humans free will and thus the respective ability to transcend in the act of choice.
........................................
Yes, in one sense, its not our free will because we are created, we are finite beings, and we didn't create our own free will. Actually that is impossible.
But in the other sense, our free will is a part of our soul, like the ability to reason, the ability to walk, the ability to make moral choices, and like many other abilities that are the gift of existence from God.

Only God is God. A finate being is created, and its in our very nature to receive, because we have nothing to give. Like Bible say, all glory is God's glory.

 

[sprinkles]

Under that premise the ability to transcend is one of the functions of choice. If God exist, he give humans free will and thus the respective ability to transcend in the act of choice.
........................................
Yes, in one sense, its not our free will because we are created, we are finite beings, and we didn't create our own free will. Actually that is impossible.
But in the other sense, our free will is a part of our soul, like the ability to reason, the ability to walk, the ability to make moral choices, and like many other abilities that are the gift of existence from God.

Only God is God. A finate being is created, and its in our very nature to receive, because we have nothing to give. Like Bible say, all glory is God's glory.

So you're saying that God is the only way to have those properties and therefore God exists because by definition God is the only way to have those properties.

 

[LucyJr]

So you're saying that God is the only way to have those properties and therefore God exists because by definition God is the only way to have those properties.

That's not what Im saying. This is what I'm saying:
If God exist, there is free will. Free will exist. Therefore God exist.

 

[sprinkles]

That's not what Im saying. This is what I'm saying:
If God exist, there is free will. Free will exist. Therefore God exist.

That can only be true if God is the only way to have free will so therefore yes, you are saying it.

 

[LucyJr]

That can only be true if God is the only way to have free will so therefore yes, you are saying it.

Yes, God is the only way to have free will. I'm saying it.

 

[sprinkles]

Yes, God is the only way to have free will. I'm saying it.

Ok. I just wanted to be clear.

 

[LucyJr]

Ok. I just wanted to be clear.

Yeah, when I said earlier "If God exist, there is free will" a better way to put that premise would be "Only if God exist, there can exist free will".

 

[Elis]

Only addressing the original post;


The two reasons I can think of as to why you would let something like the concept of someone else believing in a false god affect you would be that you either genuinely try to get them on track as for what you believe in, or because you feel like they tarnish the pride of calling yourself a true christian. If it is the latter, then why let it bother you? Shouldn't your belief be the connection between you and what you believe in; what does it matter what others believe?


As for wanting to help people - I think it is a good thought, but it is from my understanding tied to how fanaticism works. I don't think you should tell people what to believe in, but rather show them how you perceive things, and let them determine what they want to believe in.

edit:
after thinking about it a bit more, it could also be the concern for justifying your means, but doesn't that go for any belief?

 

[Skarekrow]

Yeah, when I said earlier "If God exist, there is free will" a better way to put that premise would be "Only if God exist, there can exist free will".

I don’t have much time right now to fully expand on what I was saying...but I’ll try and make it quick!

When it comes time to send your child off into the world you could say to yourself “You know, I want my child to be solely independent. I don’t want to interfere with any choices that they are going to make because that would take away the ability to learn from their mistakes that they will surely make.”
Or to put it another way....you cannot have free will if you are a sheep in a flock being shepherded. You especially cannot have free will if your pasture where you roam is fenced in.
You have the illusion of free will...but the moment that God has done anything, there is no true free will because he is shaping our destiny or that of mankind to his version of what he see as right or wrong. You cannot give man free will and then when Sodom get’s a bit wild decide to rain fire and brimstone down on it. You cannot play with the destiny and free will of Job to win a bet with Satan and still pretend that there is free will.
You cannot put a fruit tree in the garden of Eden....the tree of knowledge of good and evil....then tell the two occupant to stay away....what was the point of the tree? It was unnecessarily put there.....unless...it was part of His plan...which once again negates free will.
Do you get where I’m going with this?
Gotta run though...talk with you more later!
Have a good one!

 

[Skarekrow]

Also @LucyJr
If God DOES interfere with our lives all the time as you say he does then why let even one child die of cancer?
Why let a tornado kill hundreds?
It doesn’t make logical sense.
To me...I believe that God is there....that he loves us dearly....but.....I think he is absent....I also believe that this was the deal we make before we came here.

 

[LucyJr]

I don’t have much time right now to fully expand on what I was saying...but I’ll try and make it quick!

When it comes time to send your child off into the world you could say to yourself “You know, I want my child to be solely independent. I don’t want to interfere with any choices that they are going to make because that would take away the ability to learn from their mistakes that they will surely make.”
Or to put it another way....you cannot have free will if you are a sheep in a flock being shepherded. You especially cannot have free will if your pasture where you roam is fenced in.
You have the illusion of free will...but the moment that God has done anything, there is no true free will because he is shaping our destiny or that of mankind to his version of what he see as right or wrong. You cannot give man free will and then when Sodom get’s a bit wild decide to rain fire and brimstone down on it. You cannot play with the destiny and free will of Job to win a bet with Satan and still pretend that there is free will.
You cannot put a fruit tree in the garden of Eden....the tree of knowledge of good and evil....then tell the two occupant to stay away....what was the point of the tree? It was unnecessarily put there.....unless...it was part of His plan...which once again negates free will.
Do you get where I’m going with this?
Gotta run though...talk with you more later!
Have a good one!

I think you confuse free will with the options of free will. I have to hurry, so I'll just leave you with a question:
Let's say the law forbids murder in one country. If you broke that law openly or not, you will be punished. One child molester sees this as a open violation of his own free will. He thinks that he doesn't have free will sudenly because of that law. Do you think he is right or not?

 

[sprinkles]

I think you confuse free will with the options of free will. I have to hurry, so I'll just leave you with a question:
Let's say the law forbids murder in one country. If you broke that law openly or not, you will be punished. One child molester sees this as a open violation of his own free will. He thinks that he doesn't have free will sudenly because of that law. Do you think he is right or not?

That's a little different because human law didn't create the world where murder is possible.

Human law didn't put the chemicals in the ground which you can dig up and make gunpowder.
Human law didn't put the iron into the ground which you can smelt into iron to make blades and guns.
Human law didn't put the fossil fuels which drive the tanks and airplanes.
Human law didn't put the radioactive isotopes which are refined to make nuclear bombs.
Human law didn't put the chemicals which eat your lungs and boil your skin off.

So it's no wonder that we have to make a few of our own rules for damage control.

 

[just me]

Wouldn’t the moment God interfered with anything mankind did or asked for destroy the illusion of free will?
I believe God must be absent in order for us to truly have free will.

Think you just said a bookful and I disagree.

 

[LucyJr]

That's a little different because human law didn't create the world where murder is possible.

Human law didn't put the chemicals in the ground which you can dig up and make gunpowder.
Human law didn't put the iron into the ground which you can smelt into iron to make blades and guns.
Human law didn't put the fossil fuels which drive the tanks and airplanes.
Human law didn't put the radioactive isotopes which are refined to make nuclear bombs.
Human law didn't put the chemicals which eat your lungs and boil your skin off.

So it's no wonder that we have to make a few of our own rules for damage control.

This is so funny to me.
Firstly, you accuse God for the ilusion of free will.
Now you accuse Him of giving to many options for the ilusion of free will.