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A dangerous Christian

Satya

Satya

C'est la vie
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May 11, 2008
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I met a Christian who was rather influential to me. He was different than most Christians I have encountered in a number of ways. He didn't try to convert me. He treats the Bible as a guide rather than a manual and believes that to treat it as anything more would be idolatry. He respects other religions and believes that all that matters is living a good life and having faith in God. He believes that the arguments made against homosexuality in the New Testament were Man's law, not God's law. His views on the purpose of life, hell, purgatory, heaven, and reincarnation, are actually incredibly beautiful. I don't think he could convince me there is a God, but he certainly made me wish there was. I was incredibly touched by his views of how people should live their lives. His version of Christianity wasn't a religion, but a way of living that resembled the way Jesus Christ lived. It was actually very inspirational. He even made a powerful philosophical argument that I had never before considered. He suggested that we have free will because we cannot prove the existence of God. If we knew for certain that there was a God, then there would be no choice. That might not seem all that fascinating to most people, but I found it rather interesting.

What I love most about it is that he does something most religious Christians never do, he lives it. He doesn't hate or give into anger, he seeks to help people everyday in hopes of making the world a better place, and he does it not just because he believes in God, but because he knows it is the right thing to do. I want to live that way.

Unfortunately, meeting such an individual has unsettled me quite a bit. I rather desperately cling to my anger towards those who would judge me as inferior to them, which as it often would be are religious Christians. And now that I have met what I would call a living Christian, I am torn. It's oddly humbling but that way of life may be worth a try even if I have to swallow my pride. But I don't know if someone like me could believe in God. Intellectually, it seems as preposterous as believing in Santa Clause. But if believing in God could make me a better person and make life just little easier to live, then it might be worth the philosophical suicide. That is why this is the most dangerous Christian I have ever known. Something in me has changed. At this rate, I can't continue being Satya. That part of me will no longer have a purpose.
 
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nice

I like the distinction of "Living Christian"

Sounds like you have met a very special person.
 
Satya said:
I met a Christian who was rather influential to me. He was different than most Christians I have encountered in a number of ways. He didn't try to convert me. He treats the Bible as a guide rather than a manual and believes that to treat it as anything more would be idolatry. He respects other religions and believes that all that matters is living a good life and having faith in God. He believes that the arguments made against homosexuality in the New Testament were Man's law, not God's law. His views on the purpose of life, hell, purgatory, heaven, and reincarnation, are actually incredibly beautiful. I don't think he could convince me there is a God, but he certainly made me wish there was. I was incredibly touched by his views of how people should live their lives. His version of Christianity wasn't a religion, but a way of living that resembled the way Jesus Christ lived. It was actually very inspirational. He even made a powerful philosophical argument that I had never before considered. He suggested that we have free will because we cannot prove the existence of God. If we knew for certain that there was a God, then there would be no choice. That might not seem all that fascinating to most people, but I found it rather interesting.

What I love most about it is that he does something most religious Christians never do, he lives it. He doesn't hate or give into anger, he seeks to help people everyday in hopes of making the world a better place, and he does it not just because he believes in God, but because he knows it is the right thing to do. I want to live that way.

Unfortunately, meeting such an individual has unsettled me quite a bit. I rather desperately cling to my anger towards those who would judge me as inferior to them, which as it often would be are religious Christians. And now that I have met what I would call a living Christian, I am torn. It's oddly humbling but that way of life may be worth a try even if I have to swallow my pride. But I don't know if someone like me could believe in God. Intellectually, it seems as preposterous as believing in Santa Clause. But if believing in God could make me a better person and make life just little easier to live, then it might be worth the philosophical suicide. That is why this is the most dangerous Christian I have ever known. Something in me has changed. At this rate, I can't continue being Satya. That part of me will no longer have a purpose.
Click to expand...

Consider there may be a rebirth on the other side of that philosophical death.

Whether you ultimately choose to stay, or you shake the dust off and move on again, I am glad for your experience. :)
 
Satya said:
I met a Christian who was rather influential to me. He was different than most Christians I have encountered in a number of ways. He didn't try to convert me. He treats the Bible as a guide rather than a manual and believes that to treat it as anything more would be idolatry. He respects other religions and believes that all that matters is living a good life and having faith in God. He believes that the arguments made against homosexuality in the New Testament were Man's law, not God's law. His views on the purpose of life, hell, purgatory, heaven, and reincarnation, are actually incredibly beautiful. I don't think he could convince me there is a God, but he certainly made me wish there was. I was incredibly touched by his views of how people should live their lives. His version of Christianity wasn't a religion, but a way of living that resembled the way Jesus Christ lived. It was actually very inspirational. He even made a powerful philosophical argument that I had never before considered. He suggested that we have free will because we cannot prove the existence of God. If we knew for certain that there was a God, then there would be no choice. That might not seem all that fascinating to most people, but I found it rather interesting.

What I love most about it is that he does something most religious Christians never do, he lives it. He doesn't hate or give into anger, he seeks to help people everyday in hopes of making the world a better place, and he does it not just because he believes in God, but because he knows it is the right thing to do. I want to live that way.

Unfortunately, meeting such an individual has unsettled me quite a bit. I rather desperately cling to my anger towards those who would judge me as inferior to them, which as it often would be are religious Christians. And now that I have met what I would call a living Christian, I am torn. It's oddly humbling but that way of life may be worth a try even if I have to swallow my pride.

But I don't know if someone like me could believe in God. Intellectually, it seems as preposterous as believing in Santa Clause. But if believing in God could make me a better person and make life just little easier to live, then it might be worth the philosophical suicide. That is why this is the most dangerous Christian I have ever known. Something in me has changed.

At this rate, I can't continue being Satya. That part of me will no longer have a purpose.
Click to expand...

Hey Satya.

I do not believe you have any reason to fear this adventure, should you decide to have it with this person. Change of self is always scary when it's true. From my life experiences, I do not think you will lose "Satya" and it's purpose. You will not lose that discerning aspect of yourself. It will be transformed - that's all.

When I went through a group process retreat sort of thing 4 years ago I was surrounded by about 100 Christians. They ranged from the fundamentalist perspective to the Jesus perspective- such as you describe with this gentleman. I too fell in love with the Jesus followers who lived and practiced his teachings. I am profoundly grateful for all of them as they too caused me to crack open and receive new knowledge which transformed my view. The experience added to me - like an amalgam of many metals to make me strong. I went into that retreat a very arrogant woman, and came out humbled. What a gift to me! (I cry now to remember that life changing event and I still love them all). No, they did not convert me to believing in God. I am one of those people who do not think it's necessary to believe - or - not believe in a Christian God. What I think is necessary for me -(and I wish all other people) is to live in a way -right here and now - on this earth that does no harm - to myself - to anyone - to other living things - to the Earth. Belief in God is not required to live in that way. Right?

I see you desperately clinging, being torn, and trying to swallow your pride. IMO, anyone who comes along to affect one in those ways - is one to pay attention to. I have also learned through the years, that desperately clinging to anything only creates despair and suffering.

They say "When the student is ready, the Teacher appears".

I would say this is one of those times for you.

Don't worry about believing in God - or - not believing in God at this point. There is more going on here than meets the eye.

It sounds as if you have met an extraordinary individual. Keep your eyes open and learn - what you can - for you.
 
I pray for your understanding, and even offer to pray with you should you ever so desire. I met a special person years ago that helped guide me through most of my questions. I am still learning and still very human with weaknesses like most everyone else. In the meantime I will rejoice, as I cannot go about my day without thinking about this.

I may have stripped myself of all the armor I once wore to protect myself, but feel I have been clothed with new attire by the One that protects me now. The special person I met moved away years ago. He left me in good company. I know you will be in good company.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. Against such there are no laws. Thank you for sharing this. Glad to see you are back.
 
I think and this just me, that we don't need to believe in god to live a better life. And if god dose exist at least the only god I could fathom. Wouldn't hold it against you, if you didn't think him to be real. He would only worry if you where a good person and nothing more. But thats just me.

And his argument like every argument for god I've ever seen rely on the same flawed premise, that god exists in the first place regardless of the state or context. God is too often woven into the metaphysical reality. Thus is not deliberated as a separate entity. This makes god something you can't argue unless you wish to attack the sum of reality. Which is fun but not a practical or sturdy argument.
 
K-gal said:
Hey Satya.

I do not believe you have any reason to fear this adventure, should you decide to have it with this person. Change of self is always scary when it's true. From my life experiences, I do not think you will lose "Satya" and it's purpose. You will not lose that discerning aspect of yourself. It will be transformed - that's all.

When I went through a group process retreat sort of thing 4 years ago I was surrounded by about 100 Christians. They ranged from the fundamentalist perspective to the Jesus perspective- such as you describe with this gentleman. I too fell in love with the Jesus followers who lived and practiced his teachings. I am profoundly grateful for all of them as they too caused me to crack open and receive new knowledge which transformed my view. The experience added to me - like an amalgam of many metals to make me strong. I went into that retreat a very arrogant woman, and came out humbled. What a gift to me! (I cry now to remember that life changing event and I still love them all). No, they did not convert me to believing in God. I am one of those people who do not think it's necessary to believe - or - not believe in a Christian God. What I think is necessary for me -(and I wish all other people) is to live in a way -right here and now - on this earth that does no harm - to myself - to anyone - to other living things - to the Earth. Belief in God is not required to live in that way. Right?

I see you desperately clinging, being torn, and trying to swallow your pride. IMO, anyone who comes along to affect one in those ways - is one to pay attention to. I have also learned through the years, that desperately clinging to anything only creates despair and suffering.

They say "When the student is ready, the Teacher appears".

I would say this is one of those times for you.

Don't worry about believing in God - or - not believing in God at this point. There is more going on here than meets the eye.

It sounds as if you have met an extraordinary individual. Keep your eyes open and learn - what you can - for you.
Click to expand...

I agree. The idea of a personified God and all the human baggage that goes along with that can be an obstacle for many (myself included).

This is my personal view and I am humble enough to acknowledge I'm likely wrong, but here are my thoughts on this anyway. I do not believe God is a personified entity as humans tend to envision. I think if there is a higher power, presentation and reception in a personified way happens simply because in general it serves human understanding. What seems ironic to me is that many times the personified presentation, and all our human projections cast upon that presentation, ultimately become a millstone around the neck of other seekers.

I think you have found God. Descriptions of specifically what that means are not as important. Enjoy the experience.
 
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I, too, have had a taste of living on the fringes of what people consider "normal" in religion. It can be rather odd. I also have a distaste for any superior attitudes. However, given this, over the years I have discovered (and become friends with) many more of the type of person you describe than the other. All of these folks are very different, unique, and have their own story, but their hearts are good and true.

I think it is important to focus on God in any process like this, even as we learn from others. Each person's story is unique, as is your and mine. Yet in all this God's presence is constant, unfathomable, accepting, and welcoming love radiating towards us. I was never, ever commanded to change one little thing. All I ever got was an invitation...and open door. In light of this great love, it was a door well worth entering.

This idea (centrality of God's love) is common currency among people who live the Christian life. We all...each and every one of us...have our disconnects, our wounds, our inner anger. We all must know this very well. At the same time we also know that this Divine love overrides and infuses all of it...no matter what. It is telling that in the early Christian communities, each person was afforded a common dignity regardless of their place/state in life...this was a big deal, and drew many as it was a very unusual reality for those times. In that this practice is the "norm" from the time of the Apostles, it can be fully trusted today, regardless of what people may say.

Encountering God is rich and deeply meaningful on profound level, and it is from here that we can see more clearly a further wonder...Jesus. God, becoming incarnate, imparts a dignity on the human person we might never have even imagined. As he moves among us, speaks to us, engages the sick and outcasts, we see something of God we might never have known otherwise. It is something to ponder. Jesus really was not out to start a new religion at all...what he was really doing it drawing back the curtain on "what is"...the hard-wiring behind the entire cosmic Reality. It has been sadly trivialized through the ages, but the idea of "Emmanuel: God with us" is a real lighting bolt from the sky.

Oh well...enough of my random musings. I wish you well in your ongoing journey, a journey which will be uniquely yours and worthy of all respect.
 
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This is nice to hear; most christians I've encountered push me AWAY from religion (I say this because I retain some personal faith that science and evolution and god and a 14 billion year old universe are not mutually exclusive at all) due to the way they wield religion like a weapon, or as a wallet... hey, I can do what I WANT because I go through the motions of having religion. So much harm is done in the name of ____. It's nice to hear about a true exception.
 
The thing I can't reconcile about God is that if he is both omnipotent and omniscient then he'd presumably know exactly whether or not we'd believe in him, which completely thwarts the idea of free will. How could there be free will if in one party's point of view, the outcome is already known &, thus, presumably fixed? If it isn't known then God doesn't know everything and thus could not by definition be God (if your definition of God includes omniscience).

Just ignore me Satya, I'm happy you've been 'enlightened' and are now considering becoming a Christian. Could it be though (sorry, I can't help it) that you see this guy as dangerous/enlightening/whatever you want to call it, because his views accord more favorably with ones you already hold, rather than they being more inherently correct? His beliefs are more liberal and socially progressive than most Christians' you've met, are they not? As, I'm inclined to believe, you perceive your own to be. Not to say they aren't correct...
 
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April said:
The thing I can't reconcile about God is that if he is both omnipotent and omniscient then he'd presumably know exactly whether or not we'd believe in him, which completely thwarts the idea of free will. How could there be free will if in one party's point of view, the outcome is already known &, thus, presumably fixed? If it isn't known then God doesn't know everything and thus could not by definition be God (if your definition of God includes omniscience).

Just ignore me Satya, I'm happy you've been 'enlightened' and are now considering becoming a Christian. Could it be though (sorry, I can't help it) that you see this guy as dangerous/enlightening/whatever you want to call it, because his views accord more favorably with ones you already hold, rather than they being more inherently correct? His beliefs are more liberal and socially progressive than most Christians' you've met, are they not? As, I'm inclined to believe, you perceive your own to be. Not to say they aren't correct...
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Same here and the whole free will thing just seems like a nice hopeful ideal. I can't take it to be true. Believing in god or not I can't see it.
 
April said:
The thing I can't reconcile about God is that if he is both omnipotent and omniscient then he'd presumably know exactly whether or not we'd believe in him, which completely thwarts the idea of free will.
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You are so right...this actually is a presumption. Lots and LOTS of these get made...but really, while totally understandable, it is vastly over-simplifying the matter. From what I have seen, we have a great deal to "unknow" about this stuff before we can really know and understand. I don't mean this as a criticism at all...ideas like this really do happen all the time. I have been in this world of faith for 40 years and I tell you....I can't think of one single thing that was what I thought it was going in. It's pretty amazing really. It is good to have questions, but the real answers flip everything upside-down and inside-out, with a good bit of paradox sprinkled on top, too. Linear thought and logic are fine as far as they go, but they are only a launching pad to something else far more complex and rich.
 
It sounds like he is dangerous because he believes in things that you would like him to believe in. Almost as if he just took your ideals and slapped the label Christian on it.
 
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tovlo said:
This is my personal view and I am humble enough to acknowledge I'm likely wrong, but here are my thoughts on this anyway. I do not believe God is a personified entity as humans tend to envision. I think if there is a higher power, presentation and reception in a personified way happens simply because in general it serves human understanding. What seems ironic to me is that many times the personified presentation, and all our human projections cast upon that presentation, ultimately become a millstone around the neck of other seekers.
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Beautifully said! Some may argue that their personification of God is true because man was made in his image. But this limits God to what we are able to perceive. That's seems foolish to me. Consider the billions of people who have roamed this earth. In that time, the divine has manifested himself in so many different ways. If all of us have been made in his image, what an image that must be. To me this proves that the divine is beyond my comprehension. As an individual my experience of the divine will be unique to me. I like sharing that experience with people who enjoy similar traditions. And I welcome the opportunity to learn from those with differing traditions.
Satay, Good luck on your journey.
 
Norwich said:
Beautifully said! Some may argue that their personification of God is true because man was made in his image. But this limits God to what we are able to perceive. That's seems foolish to me. Consider the billions of people who have roamed this earth. In that time, the divine has manifested himself in so many different ways. If all of us have been made in his image, what an image that must be. To me this proves that the divine is beyond my comprehension.

As an individual my experience of the divine will be unique to me. I like sharing that experience with people who enjoy similar traditions. And I welcome the opportunity to learn from those with differing traditions.


Satay, Good luck on your journey.
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Love how you said this Norwich! We each experience the divine in our own ways. I would hope, that one day, religion would allow people to do "just that" - instead of being a barrier.
 
This is the form of Christianity which gives me hope. While fundamentalism makes me rebel and constantly question God, the love that is offered in this form of Christianity, what I consider what Jesus wanted us to do on Earth is beyond amazing. There are no words to describe it, it just gives you a message of peace and faith. I am glad you got exposed to this side of Christianity Satya, and certainly don't be afraid to give it a shot.

This is what Christianity should be, not a religion but instead an open-minded religion, filled with the values that God wants us to practice such as compassion, unity, and acceptance. The Buddha once mentioned a saying which said, we should always question everything. That is completely true. as there is nothing certain in the world we live in.

We are aware however of what makes us progress as humans, what makes us stronger, more unified. I believe if we follow life with reason yet seek spiritual fulfillment in the way this man describes it, life can have incredible purpose. Weather or not you believe God is there or not, the teachings of Jesus(the ones that are not described by man or bible-based) are simply beautiful. Hope you find the answers you seek :D
 
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corndogman said:
It sounds like he is dangerous because he believes in things that you would like him to believe in. Almost as if he just took your ideals and slapped the label Christian on it.
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I'm not so sure. He has challenged some of my long held political beliefs. He values life differently than I do. His views of sex are also very different than my own, but I think I like his better. There is a harmony to his beliefs that I haven't seen in many other belief systems.
 
If you discover a better way to live, leaving the old way behind is like losing a friend. It can seem like a betrayal to your former self, but it is only growth of the same self. There is no loss. It takes a great amount of humility to transform.
 
No you---

Satya don't worry about it. You could do as much exploring as you want in religion and you're never going to believe in a God. You just, won't. Like you said that logical part of you is still there and while you could be spiritual that's different from believing in a religion or God. At some point through you're exploring something'll snap and you'll be like 'Wow I just wasted a bunch of my time believing all of this stuff' but it will make you content because then you'll realise you can never be tricked into believing a God, that it's pretty much a ton of hogwash.

A lot of great minds go through that experimental phase and there's nothing wrong with it, it just serves to re-enforce your anti-faith in the end.
 
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