[INFJ] Hello everyone

QuickTwist said:

The congregation is not even a year old. AFAIK, they don't plan on stopping being a congregation, if that is what you are asking. We have a building.

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Well, I wish the very best to you. The place of meeting is a big deal. It means creating the kind of atmosphere your unique group of people feels will bring them into a spirit of worship.

QuickTwist said:

The Messiah.

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Okay, this gives me a good idea where you are at in your understanding. Thank you for sharing that.

I'm going to share something, and it is not meant to invalidate you. The messiah is central to YOUR faith. I'm fine with that, and have no intention of messing with you.

In Judaism, the messiah is peripheral. The Jewish concept of the messiah is also quite different from that of Christians.

What is central? Rabbi Hillel said, "What is hateful to you don't do to others. This is the whole Torah. All the rest is commentary." Where Christianity says, "You are broken and Jesus will save you," Judaism says, "The world is broken, and it's your responsibility to fix it."

QuickTwist said:

IDK why you say "real." But I've never been to what you describe.

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That's fine.

The reason I keep using the word "real" is because one of the problems we have with Messianic Jews is that they claim their churches are synagogues, when they are not. A synagogue is a house of worship for those practicing Judaism. Messianic Judaism is a form of Christianity.

Since you say you love Judaism, I would like to invite you to visit a synagogue. NOT because I'm trying to convert you, heaven forbid. There is no need of that. But because a person cannot understand Jews and Judaism without hanging out with Jews and experiencing Judaism in practice. Do you think it would be interesting to you to see how Jesus worshiped?

One of my most treasured memories is when I was still Christian and visited a NYC Jewish family I had met on BBS forum much like this one. I had a chance to go through an Orthodox Shabbat from the lighting of the candles to attending shul, to having a beautiful Shabbat table with brisket, to having a discussion about why they pre-tear toilet paper all the way to Havdalah, the closing of Shabbat. It was amazing to me, and beautiful, and remains among my most precious memories. I had no idea such a thing existed.

QuickTwist said:

The pastor talks about the Exodus and Jesus, so make of that what you will.

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Perhaps one day you will have the good fortune of having a Jewish friend invite you to a seder.

QuickTwist said:

"On the first day of the week, we assembled to break bread." Acts 20:7

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Oh, I think you completely misunderstood. I'm not telling you what to do. If you want to be a Christian and meet on Sunday, more power to you. I would never ever tell you not to do that. Please forgive me if I gave you that impression.

My comment was only that this is not something done in Messianic Judaism. Even missionary churches like Chosen People Ministry plants meet on the Shabbat, not Sunday. That's why I was shocked. I did NOT see that one coming! LOL

QuickTwist said:

No tradition. Just refrain from working. The Sabbath is for man to rest, not for rules and regulations, as it was from the beginning.

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In your mind, what is work? Again, no wrong answer here. I am just trying to get to know you. And I do support you in this. Having a day of rest is good for a great many reasons.

You may be interested in learning that the word in the Torah used in those verses is melakah, refers to a specific kind of work: creative work. It doesn't mean the kind of work that takes effort, that is another word.

QuickTwist said:

Well, he sure seems to think he was healed by God.

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I'm sure he does.


So, in your mind, what do YOU see as Messianic Judaism? And what is it about your congregation that makes you see it as MJ?

Tis late, and the little eyelids are getting heavy. I look forward to continuing this but for now I must say laila tov, goodnight.

meowzician said:

In Judaism, the messiah is peripheral.

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Which kind of Judaism?

meowzician said:

But because a person cannot understand Jews and Judaism without hanging out with Jews and experiencing Judaism in practice.

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My pastor is Jewish and I get together with him sometimes.

meowzician said:

Perhaps one day you will have the good fortune of having a Jewish friend invite you to a seder.

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I already told you I have already gone to a Seder...

meowzician said:

My comment was only that this is not something done in Messianic Judaism.

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It was done by the Apostles, who were the very first Messianic Jews.

meowzician said:

You may be interested in learning that the word in the Torah used in those verses is melakah, refers to a specific kind of work: creative work.

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Please quote a verse where this is used.

meowzician said:

So, in your mind, what do YOU see as Messianic Judaism? And what is it about your congregation that makes you see it as MJ?

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I simply see it as an effort to get to the Jewish roots of following Jesus. My congregation does just that. Not tradition for the sake of tradition, but instead, trying to understand the Bible in the way Yeshua saw it.

@meowzician,

In "Judaism" as you describe it, saying Messianic Judaism is not real Judaism, people are "not that bad." Like, "I haven't murdered anyone. I keep the Law. I just don't do anything that bad." That is a very big error. What did Isaiah say when he saw the "Lord of Armies"? What did Job say when he came face to fact with God? How did Moses act when YHWH spoke to him?

All of these people were utterly undone by their sin when they came face to face with God. It is only those who see God who realize how sinful they really are.

"When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’s knees and said, 'Go away from me, because I’m a sinful man, Lord!'" Luke 5:8

Do you think this kind of discussion is appropriate in @Evan44 's introduction thread? The fundamentals of the discussion are fascinating, valid and important on both sides, but both Jewish and Christian traditions emphasise the importance of welcoming a stranger and giving them support. I don't think this sort of discussion in this sort of thread is the right way to do it, especially as there are other places in the forum where it would be welcome. If I had just joined and was unfamiliar with online forums I would find it a bit intimidating - and it is not representative of the wide range of things in the forum as a whole.

Evan, I hope you have explored the forum at large since you joined and can find affinities with us here. As well as the threads that can be seen by anyone, there are a number of active threads, including personal blog threads, that cannot be seen by non-members and which are worth checking out.

John K said:

Do you think this kind of discussion is appropriate in @Evan44 's introduction thread? The fundamentals of the discussion are fascinating, valid and important on both sides, but both Jewish and Christian traditions emphasise the importance of welcoming a stranger and giving them support. I don't think this sort of discussion in this sort of thread is the right way to do it, especially as there are other places in the forum where it would be welcome. If I had just joined and was unfamiliar with online forums I would find it a bit intimidating - and it is not representative of the wide range of things in the forum as a whole.

Evan, I hope you have explored the forum at large since you joined and can find affinities with us here. As well as the threads that can be seen by anyone, there are a number of active threads, including personal blog threads, that cannot be seen by non-members and which are worth checking out.

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You are right. I did try and move the conversation to another thread, but I admittedly didn't keep trying to do that as I should have.

John K said:

Do you think this kind of discussion is appropriate in @Evan44 's introduction thread?

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Probably not. I admit I'm lazy and don't check the names of what thread I'm in. I just respond to what shows up in my alert box. I'll now make it a point to redirect this discussion.

Thank you for the gentle heads up.

meowzician said:

Okay hold it right there you guys! Put the light sabers down. You! sit there! You are mischaracterizing science. And You! sit over there! You are mischaracterizing religion. Now kiss and make up.

Quarkmaster, one of the things I mentioned when I introduced myself was that I try to learn from everyone. Atheists have taught me to think more clearly, and to spot fallacies in my thinking. I owe you guys a huge debt of gratitude. CS Lewis said that we believers need our skeptics because they keep us honest.

And OF COURSE science is not a religion.

It's really lovely to meet you. You have to know I think INTP's are really sexy.

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Yes Ma'am.

meowzician said:

'm very tempted to butt heads with you on this, because it's just not true

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C'mon. Butt heads. I wanna watch.

meowzician said:

You have to know I think INTP's are really sexy.

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I'm not surprised. We are pretty sexy.

meowzician said:

CS Lewis said that we believers need our skeptics because they keep us honest.

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I just like his stories, like The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe. They were really great movies. Those are the kinds where I enjoy immersing myself in the fantasy. My cousin, perhaps being aware that I was an atheist, or perhaps not, sent me a book, I think it was, The Purpose-Driven Life.

Interestingly, I find myself at a crossroads in my life, where I might be back to seeking purpose, where all of my previous motivations, goals, purposes, have dried-up. But I've already been down that rocky road of Christianity, and have no plans to back-track. Or onto any other religion. None of them make sense to me.

I suspect that we define ourselves in the curves, and not in the straightaways. It's a tumultuous time for people who find themselves here, or in this "now."

meowzician said:

Although I am an ex-Christian, now Jew,

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I'm curious how this came about.

Do you know, I waited for an email letting me know my post had been responded to but got nothing. So I figured the whole thing was either dropped or my response was deleted. And for both new members, I'm reading along and it's looking just a bit too gushy for me, and later wondered if I was a bit too rough on them. We should be welcoming new members, not excoriating them. On the other hand, he did pull the tiger's tail.

QuickTwist said:

I didn't know that INTPs have feelings....

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Okay, I admit it. We don't. We're like little robots, just runnin' around doin stuff.

QuickTwist said:

Wow... No wonder you are an atheist if you think that is what Christianity is... Christianity makes testable claims that can be verified historically. Christianity is an evidence based religion unlike almost all other religions.

John 20:31 "But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

Christianity is based on eyewitness testimony, not that some guy made something up that people were just so gullible to believe.

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Okay! Okay! I'll convert back. I change my mind.

meowzician said:

"Hasta Lasagne."

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I don't think this is a word either. Or two words. Maybe it means, "I have lasagna." i don't know. Me no hablo espanol, senoira (or senoirita).

meowzician said:

Heck, truth be known, if believing in pink lunar elephants gets someone through the night, let them have their pink lunar elephants.

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Thank you. It's about time someone respected my religion.

meowzician said:

Probably not. I admit I'm lazy and don't check the names of what thread I'm in.

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It's not necessary. I don't even understand what most of the topics are myself.

Quarkmaster said:

Thank you. It's about time someone respected my religion.

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Quarkmaster said:

I don't think this is a word either. Or two words. Maybe it means, "I have lasagna." i don't know. Me no hablo espanol, senoira (or senoirita).

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That MS. S-annoy-arita to you!

Quarkmaster said:

C'mon. Butt heads. I wanna watch.

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Sadist.

Quarkmaster said:

I'm not surprised. We are pretty sexy.

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Ooo lala!

Quarkmaster said:

I just like his stories, like The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe. They were really great movies. Those are the kinds where I enjoy immersing myself in the fantasy.

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My favorite was actually from his space trilogy: That Hideous Strength. It's only coincidence, but that's also the novel where my quote about skeptics comes from.

Quarkmaster said:

My cousin, perhaps being aware that I was an atheist, or perhaps not, sent me a book, I think it was, The Purpose-Driven Life.

Interestingly, I find myself at a crossroads in my life, where I might be back to seeking purpose, where all of my previous motivations, goals, purposes, have dried-up. But I've already been down that rocky road of Christianity, and have no plans to back-track. Or onto any other religion. None of them make sense to me.

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May I suggest? Enjoy or toss at your pleasure:

My number one suggestion?
Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
He is a psychiatrist and Holocaust survivor who believes that our primary drive is the search for meaning. It blends his memories with practical philosophy and is profoundly moving without being religious.

Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse
This is a really short, almost lyrical novel. It's about a young guy's quest for enlightenment and self understanding. It definitely has Buddhist influences but is more a philosophical fable. There is one scene towards the end where he hears the voices of all people like a great "Om" in the river. It is so striking similar to something I experience when I watch the waves at the beach, when I feel like I can almost understand what they are saying, that this will always be a favorite of mine.

The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran
This is a poetic, timeless collection of essays on love, work, joy, sorrow--basically the human condition. It has a spiritual, almost mystical tone but draws from universal wisdom rather than any single faith. I've known agnostics who have loved its beauty and insight into living meaningfully. "Love one another, but make not a bond of love: Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.” “The deeper sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.”

Tao Te Ching by Lao Tze.
I'm more of the poetic sort, and I'm not sure if that's something INTP's really appreciate, but the Tao Te Ching a staple of spiritual thought for those who are not theists. I recommend the Feng English version. Not only is their translation excellent, but the style of art itself is reflective of the Taoist mindset.

I'm thinking an NT may prefer something more rationally driven. I know there are other books out there that are in more your usual essay fashion whose reputations precede them, but I have not read them personally. I'm thinking of like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig or The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

Quarkmaster said:

I'm curious how this came about.

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Ohhhhhh THIS is a very LONG story, and I am not sure if that's really what you want. I'm totally up to sharing--I just want to tailor it to what you are genuinely interested in so that I don't bore the hell out of you. I'll share two extremely short things. Just understand that these are clips from a very long journey that had many different facets.

The single greatest factor is this: I developed a love for the Jewish people, their culture, their religion, their incredible intellect, the depth of their heart, the thoughtfulness of their ethics, their dogged will to survive, their amazing ability to thrive even in the midst of adversity...even superficial stuff like their jokes and food and incredible music. It became a love so great that I just couldn't stay away. I'm like Dances with Wolves with a yarmulke.

The part you may appreciate as an NT was simply that when religious questions arose, Jews just gave better answers. Their scholarship was superior and the quality of their reasoning was just...CLEARER. In 1991 I discovered that a computer was a phone, and immediately became involved in a BBS forum called Rhyme Religion. It was the first time in my life that I met religious Jews. Someone had asked me why I had moved from being Protestant to Catholic. I shared that I wanted the original real deal, and that while no church today is exactly like the Early Church, that the Catholic church is actually pretty similar while evangelical churches just aren't anything like the Early Church. I said that becoming a Catholic was like taking a step back in time to the original real deal. My Jewish friend Miriam sent me back a post that had only one sentence: "Take one more step back." I sat there and stared at that post for a long time. Because she was absolutely right. Before the Church, there was the Jewish people. And THAT is what triggered my deep dive into Judaism.

And you need to know the KIND of Judaism I practice. While there is a lot I love about Orthodox Judaism, especially its hospitality and the strength of their yiddishkeit, it was a poor fit due to my appreciation for things like textual criticism, archaeology, and legitimate history (IOW science in general). At my Reform Temple I can say things like "The Torah was written by the Jewish people, not Moses," and no one bats an eye. I greatly appreciate that at our Torah studies, we all have complete autonomy what we accept and what we toss. I can have enormous respect for sages like Maimonides and still turn around and say, "You know, that just doesn't work for me." And most of all, I love it that everyone has a slightly different idea who or what God is, and no one is interested in shoving their personal notion down anyone else's throat. In fact, two of the teens we confirmed last Shabbat were atheists who spoke about how "God is an idea" that serves as a drive to become a better, more ethical person.

I'm telling you, this is a totally different animal than the Christianity I grew up with.