I don't think you understand...
Maybe the delusion comes from a silly stereotype that you seem to hold on into given your past posts regarding infps.
Why are so many INFPs delued that they are INFJs?
- Thread starter Hector
- Start date
I don't think you understand...
Maybe the delusion comes from a silly stereotype that you seem to hold on into given your past posts regarding infps.
Social stereotypes are a plague of the 21st century and we as forumites are unfortunately not exempt from it. I can only hope that knowledge and tolerance will prevail over the trivial and more so shallow categorizations of certain MBTI types.
Social stereotypes usually come along with projections, in fact i would say that a really BIG part of it is just that, projections.
Hence I am rarely offended by emotional outbursts that some forumites display. If nothing, I empathize with everyone's position..
You're missing the point and giving indirect/patronizing answers. If you're new to the mbti then maybe it makes sense for you to carry such stereotypes, that's why you seem to lack in understanding of mbti.
INFPs pride coming from vanity doesn't even make sense, and i don't even understand why would someone take that seriously.
I am just stating my opinion. An exchange of information is what all of us are here for, or at least it should be. I am hardly an expert in MBTI, hence I have only few arguments that I can support my claims with, most of which are empirically based. Sometimes it is difficult to articulate abstract thoughts, but that shouldn't discourage any of us in the pursuit of greater knowledge.
I know it's your opinion. But then providing backup to your assertions is part of making the exchange of information worthy and valuable.
Naturally, but it is dependent on the reader whether the arguments provided will be even considered as reliable and/or relevant to the discussion. Ultimately it is always for the best to fill in the blanks as we see fit.
Why the lofty answers?.
The truth about certain types being preffered over others (INFJ) doesn't say anything about the least prefered ones (INFP in this case). Specially if you consider that the reason for it (arguably) is the supposed "rareness" of the type in question, and that's supposed to be like a trademark, or special mention to some people which is, bs. Then you have the silly misconception of Introverted Feeling being a cognitive function that precludes someone to act as a self absorbed person, and think of themselves as more special than anyone else.
Also i would recomend you to reconsider the INFP deluding themselves as INFJs, because i've seen many people (entps, estps, entjs) mistyping themselves as either infp or infj, given the introspective, sensitive and artistic nature these types supposedly have (which is true to some extent). The reason for it i think, is that for some people when they start with these kinds of tools, they are usually in a pretty introspective/low/alienated mood, and start to see those parts of themselves that don't really come too much in their day to day life, specially the emotional kind of stuff, it's a solo work for the most part, i've seen more extroverts thinking they're introverts, than the other way around with mbti.
Last edited:
I want to correct the "pride" description of INFPs...
There are two kinds of pride, in my opinion.
There is the good pride, pride in being something, or pride in something virtuous, and in this sense, the Delta group in Socionics have this pride more than any other group. The Delta's are ESTJs, ISTJs, ENFPs and INFPs.
Those are traditionalists, good people, who follow the norm and tradition, respect authority and consider their character to be the most important thing. There is no room for experience or novelty in their mindset...they are prudent, careful, and a "model" citisen. They are very predictable, and they take great pride in this, because its something they strive for and want to be respected for.
And in this sense, the Delta group has the most to be proud of, and they really are.
To explain this clearly, if four people meet in the same room let's say, each one the "captain" or the leader of his socio-group, respectively a ENTP (from the Alpha group), a ESTP (from the Beta group), a ENTJ (from the Gamma group) and a ESTJ (from the Delta group), naturaly, the common typical ESTJ is in the upper position and advantage, and he knows it very well, and he also knows how to put people "in their place", and how to let them know that he is more worthy of respect as a human being, because he is more self-less, a good worker, with a good character, and trustworthy and dependable (and he can efforthlesly put any ENTP, ENTJ and ESTP "back in their place" if he sees they behave badly or they "step over their attributes". The words of the ESTJs have a moral quality to them, something that appeals to conscience, and that's why they can "put in his place" even a proud ESTP.)
Recently I've saw at my workplace this happening: a ESTJ (kind of 30 years) "taking care" of a naughty ENTJ: it was just incredible, just with a few words, but spoken with power and authority, the ENTJ got quickly calmed down with his silly tricks and impressions of a "bad boy".
That is the thing with the Delta group: they are the standard of what is acceptable for a man to be, and they take great pride in it, and they deserve it. Even ENFPs and INFPs when they get older, most of them have that dependable and trustworhty character in them, and if one is sane with his mind and can think clearly, he can not but give to those people respect, because they deserve it rightly so.
So it is in this sense that the Delta group and of course INFPs too, have that pride in them. They simply know it: they look around and see how many mistakes people make around them, how stupid and inprudent people are, and they just know it...they know what is theirs, what they do have, and they know its better than what others have. Its their pride...
But also, if one knows how to observe people, how to look at them carefuly and with a clear eye, one can observe that beyond that pride that the Delta group deserve it, they have another kind of pride, that pride that is spoken of in the Bible. Its arrogance, a kind of absurd self-confidence in one's own abilitites and a very unshakeable good impression about themselfs.
Not all of them have that, but many of them have it. I know ESTJs who are humble about themselfs, and they follow and love justice, simplity and frugality, but those kind of ESTJ s are very rare.
Most of the ESTJs are very arrogant people, with big mounths, being assholes "in a nice way" because...hey!, they can do it, because they are the best, the model of a good man, and nobody dares to take them into account (actualty, there are a type of people who are not afraid at all to observe and account a ESTJ: they are ESTPs.). And is the same with INFPs...most of them are arrogant and, weirdly so, in spite of their "good pride", their arrogance makes them look very stupid, just like ESTJs.
There are two kinds of pride, in my opinion.
There is the good pride, pride in being something, or pride in something virtuous, and in this sense, the Delta group in Socionics have this pride more than any other group. The Delta's are ESTJs, ISTJs, ENFPs and INFPs.
Those are traditionalists, good people, who follow the norm and tradition, respect authority and consider their character to be the most important thing. There is no room for experience or novelty in their mindset...they are prudent, careful, and a "model" citisen. They are very predictable, and they take great pride in this, because its something they strive for and want to be respected for.
And in this sense, the Delta group has the most to be proud of, and they really are.
To explain this clearly, if four people meet in the same room let's say, each one the "captain" or the leader of his socio-group, respectively a ENTP (from the Alpha group), a ESTP (from the Beta group), a ENTJ (from the Gamma group) and a ESTJ (from the Delta group), naturaly, the common typical ESTJ is in the upper position and advantage, and he knows it very well, and he also knows how to put people "in their place", and how to let them know that he is more worthy of respect as a human being, because he is more self-less, a good worker, with a good character, and trustworthy and dependable (and he can efforthlesly put any ENTP, ENTJ and ESTP "back in their place" if he sees they behave badly or they "step over their attributes". The words of the ESTJs have a moral quality to them, something that appeals to conscience, and that's why they can "put in his place" even a proud ESTP.)
Recently I've saw at my workplace this happening: a ESTJ (kind of 30 years) "taking care" of a naughty ENTJ: it was just incredible, just with a few words, but spoken with power and authority, the ENTJ got quickly calmed down with his silly tricks and impressions of a "bad boy".
That is the thing with the Delta group: they are the standard of what is acceptable for a man to be, and they take great pride in it, and they deserve it. Even ENFPs and INFPs when they get older, most of them have that dependable and trustworhty character in them, and if one is sane with his mind and can think clearly, he can not but give to those people respect, because they deserve it rightly so.
So it is in this sense that the Delta group and of course INFPs too, have that pride in them. They simply know it: they look around and see how many mistakes people make around them, how stupid and inprudent people are, and they just know it...they know what is theirs, what they do have, and they know its better than what others have. Its their pride...
But also, if one knows how to observe people, how to look at them carefuly and with a clear eye, one can observe that beyond that pride that the Delta group deserve it, they have another kind of pride, that pride that is spoken of in the Bible. Its arrogance, a kind of absurd self-confidence in one's own abilitites and a very unshakeable good impression about themselfs.
Not all of them have that, but many of them have it. I know ESTJs who are humble about themselfs, and they follow and love justice, simplity and frugality, but those kind of ESTJ s are very rare.
Most of the ESTJs are very arrogant people, with big mounths, being assholes "in a nice way" because...hey!, they can do it, because they are the best, the model of a good man, and nobody dares to take them into account (actualty, there are a type of people who are not afraid at all to observe and account a ESTJ: they are ESTPs.). And is the same with INFPs...most of them are arrogant and, weirdly so, in spite of their "good pride", their arrogance makes them look very stupid, just like ESTJs.
I really do need to look at the other functions, the only one I really focus on is Fi. I read these things about Ti and I'm scratching my head thinking, 'I have that!' so it's nice to know that it's not Ti so much as Fi Te. Less confusion is good *nods*
I think I need to be at inner peace and since I'm really the only INFP I know, in person, I'm just kinda basing everything on me lol which is bad >.>
And for INFJs being so rare I sure as hell know a lot more of them than INFPs o.o
I may be mistaken about Ne and INFP. The Fi may cause them to abstain from this type of activity. This is most common in ENTP and then INTP. It is a learning process through observation and it lacks agenda. Integrity and insight are not applicable to experimentation, observation and learning. Perceiving externally.
Yes. It is against the nature of Fi to enforce their beliefs on others because they are so sensitive to others doing it to them. Fe is different in that it is more 'group responsibility' based. Fe can be aggressive in trying to convince Fi to disregard their own values for the benefit of the group.
Example: Fi is against what the country is doing in some fashion or another but respects others who do the flag salute while expecting them to respect his/her decision to not do the solute.
Fe is repelled by Fi's disrespect of everyone in his decision to not do the salute.
Is Fi wrong in protecting his own values in not identifying with a war he doesn't agree with? Is Fe wrong in that Fi is disrespecting the people who died for the country and may confront him about it?
Fi is showing integrity in what he believes in and insight into what it is he is supporting. Fe has a clear sight into what the values of society is and the expectations that are there to protect everyone. Fe needs this support structure in order for it to thrive. It needs the respect of others and the emotional support in order for them to have the strength to reach their goals. Fi's goals are self sufficient and they may neglect this support structure that Fe deems so important because Fi is used to not being reliant on it to have values and ideals.
Ti is used in conjunction with Fe. It has all these things but with Ti being internal it enforces understanding before action while an INFJ Fe then Ti and this can lead to action and the validating your actions.
In an INTP Ti before Fe can prevent action because the individual may never feel to have a well enough understanding. INFJ's learn better objectivity and gain understanding through the growth of Ti at adolescence at the same time the INTP grows in Fe and becomes more capable of taking action and gaining social confidence.
True. And you will discover that INfPs do sometimes grapple with a similar dilemma with action vs inaction. Like dominant Ti, dominant Fi requires an internal green light to go ahead with its actions, only instead of prioritizing understanding through linear method and how things fit together in a slot a into slot b and this is why and how something works, they need to identify if their action feels right and aligns with their impressions. The trouble is, unlike Ti which picks through the fluffy Fe matrix and its holistic pile of values already pre-packaged by the outside world and use that to assemble a personalized method of navigation, Fi has the task of dismantling an external system ordered by Te and deciding if each branch of the system aligns with its values. Though I would call it more a desire to 'connect' with an idea and whether it fits who they think they are than the desire to understand the how and the why.
They're both concerned with building a structure of understanding that is personalized and internal, but their tasks and methods are different.
But then, Ni-Se also have this problem, but it comes more to living up to an outer construction of an already realized ideal than to discovering or building an inner, subjective one. That is, instead of building internal structures, the INFJ and INTJ want to see the ideal reached outside of itself. The central problem becomes not, 'how do i understand this?' or 'how do I know this is what I want/how do I know what my ideals are' but 'what should I do,' and 'how should I think and behave' to achieve/respond/interact with the universal ideals/laws that I unconsciously recognize as truths?
Or at least, that's how i interpret it.
Last edited:
Has anyone else noticed that INFP's have almost a kind of, I don't know... unfulfilled perfectionism? I can't think of just how to describe it. They have this (occasional) desire to be perfect and good, but seem to get easily distracted or just never really follow through with their ambitions. Most of the time they will defend their lack of accomplishment, not doing what they were supposed to, etc. if you point it out to them or try to get them back on task, but they will later beat themselves up for it (often when it is too late.) (Not saying this is true for all INFP's, but I have seen it happen many times.)
The perfectionism of the INFJ is much more tortuous and demanding, much more defined and prevalent.
This isn't the best example of what I had talked about, but an INFP male who I had a very close relationship with once told me he wanted to make good grades initially, but soon decided that putting forth a lot of effort and really trying was too hard for him to do and was too much of a risk. Because at least if he didn't try and failed, he could live with himself because he knows he could have done better. If he had tried and failed then he would have been completely ashamed. I understand this way of thinking, but I also find it to be completely absurd and impractical. The end result is the same: failure. And your mistakes catch up to you eventually. At the end of the day, nobody is going to really know how hard you worked, all they will see are the results.
The perfectionism of the INFJ is much more tortuous and demanding, much more defined and prevalent.
This isn't the best example of what I had talked about, but an INFP male who I had a very close relationship with once told me he wanted to make good grades initially, but soon decided that putting forth a lot of effort and really trying was too hard for him to do and was too much of a risk. Because at least if he didn't try and failed, he could live with himself because he knows he could have done better. If he had tried and failed then he would have been completely ashamed. I understand this way of thinking, but I also find it to be completely absurd and impractical. The end result is the same: failure. And your mistakes catch up to you eventually. At the end of the day, nobody is going to really know how hard you worked, all they will see are the results.
That kind of motivation behind self-sabotage sounds more like a Ni-Se thing. Ni dominants often have a crippling fear of failure and disappointing their ideals to themselves and others. It describes the push pull dynamic of Ni-Se quite well too. Not sure what could possibly be more torturous and demanding than 100% adherence to an ideal (Ni) or it's not worth doing (Se).
Not that this couldn't happen to INFPs either (no type has exclusive rights to any kind of cognitive biases) but INFPs problems with procrastination are more due to their indecisive nature (what if I put all this effort into this and it turns out I'm miserable doing it?) and general distractibility if they rather be doing something else. They worry more about whether something better might come along, a better time, a better mood, if something is right for them, if they change their mind, etc. It is very important for INFPs to believe in and connect with what they're doing. If it's not important or they don't care about the responsibility, it won't get done and that's that.
Here's interesting article on why introverted intuitives, in general, run into procrastination problems: http://personalityjunkie.com/09/infps-intps-infjs-intjs-struggle-to-act/
I can definitely see that being indicative of Ni-Se too actually. I didn't do the best job of explaining my point. As we've said the INFP struggles with decisiveness. There is a period of initial desire for perfection, an aware abandonment of the desire when it's time to take action/shortly after action is taken, and then a return to the desire as though they didn't really mean to abandon it and just got caught up or side-tracked.
I think with the INFJ the desire to be perfect is always there, so the INFJ will show more commitment/take more action, but may also end up not doing "enough" to reach their goal. The difference is that for the INFJ, failure will be a result of circumstances that prevent them from following through with their plans rather than just losing sight of their goal/temporary abandonment of their goal. INFJ's definitely do end up abandoning things and returning to them later, but there is more awareness in the process.
Even if the INFJ and INFP arrive with the same result (failure), the INFP didn't really intend to fail in the end (though his actions and words might even have said otherwise) because he was unsure whether or not something was worth his time, whereas the INFJ had more of a false start, but eventually accepted the failure/abandoned the idea, being aware of the outcome. I guess what makes the INFP more self-sabotaging to me is that there will be something they must obviously do to achieve their goals that they are aware of that everyone else can see, but suddenly when it's time to take action, the desire to achieve them is gone (which is seen as them not trying.) With the INFJ it's when we realize that our goals are unachievable that we abandon them.
"... INJs quickly learn that their visions are almost always tarnished in the process of actualization. Once the ideal has been tainted, it is easy for INJs (especially INFJs) to become despondent and lose all interest," is very accurate.