Why are so many INFPs delued that they are INFJs?

[Gaze]

wow *mind blown*

 

[Rcs6r]

The problem is YOU, Horatio

Oh baby, be my solution. Let's be 1 + 1 and solve for x. I want to move to your algorithm.

 

[barbad0s]

Oh baby, be my solution. Let's be 1 + 1 and solve for x. I want to move to your algorithm.

This proves that INFPdom is not something of nature that you are born with, but a punishment that is earned out of sin.

 

[Dave Fallon]

INFP may suddenly refrain from discussing a topic because they don't want to enforce their beliefs on others or feel like others are enforcing their beliefs on them. INFJ can more often proselytize while the INFP only wants to discuss and explore. Proselytizing can make both an INTP and INFP avoid or ignore the debater when it is too aggressive and the individual seems close minded thus convincing the INTP/INFP that it is pointless to continue the discussion.

Ok, that makes sense and explains some of what I think I'm seeing. Some people seem to debate just for the debate, with no real hope of "converting" the other. Others, as soon as they sense that they can't "convert" the other, they stop bothering to debate. But what happens when, as [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] mentioned, someone has both clear insight and integrity? How would an INFJ treat that compared with an INFP? Or would they treat it the same? It sounds like the INFJ would get too aggressive, while the INFP would refrain from discussing because they don't tend to proselytize, they only mention things they want to discuss and explore. Right?

Sometimes however an Ne user is maybe just be throwing an Ne bomb to see how everyone reacts. I wonder what people will do when I put this highly controversial statement out there... Generally I can recognize it but I wonder if an Ni user can...

I don't understand that at all. Why would someone say something highly controversial just to see how others react? Is it a controversial statement that they don't actually believe in? Is that what the topic of this thread is? I'm lost on this suggestion; I just don't see why anyone would do that.

 

[Dave Fallon]

I don't know about you guys, but it's pretty darn rare to run into someone in person who knows the theory of MBTI/socionics in great detail. A lot of people do not know the theory comprehensively. There's only so much that you'll be seeing on the surface level. There are plenty of members on this INFJ (MBTI-based) forum who know plenty about the theory, but even still have trouble typing themselves.

Yeah, I agree. I don't even know if those who *do* claim to know the theory comprehensively really know as much depth as there is to know. MBTI theory can't reach the real depths of human psyche, it's just built to simplify things.

INFPs = Me, me, me? That could be applicable to any type.

Right. It's definitely oversimplification.

Also, to answer the question, many "INFPs" are deluded that they are INFJs for a multitude of reasons. They could have gotten INFJ as a test result on an MBTI/Socionics test and are unaware of the cognitive functions. Also, these tests are also mandatory in many post secondary classes, and many are left mistyped without the motivation to investigate their type further. They also could have been mistyped by someone. The list goes on and on.

And if they are mistyped by poor testing methods or by someone explaining it poorly to them or any of the other methods, does that make them "deluded" or merely mistaken?

Whatever the case may be, there's probably a "pure" and theoretical level of MBTI that would point out that an INFP is wrong to think he/she is INFJ, but as [MENTION=9859]Switchgirl[/MENTION] says, very very few people are really at that level of comprehension. Then, there is a practical and utilitarian level for MBTI, where an INFP that thinks he/she is an INFJ could be led down the wrong path, develop the wrong traits and not benefit from MBTI. But that is personal to them. If they seek help and someone who understands better tries to tell them they are really INFP, that's one thing, but to be concerned that INFPs are polluting the INFJ pool makes me uncomfortable...

 

[sassafras]

Ok, that makes sense and explains some of what I think I'm seeing. Some people seem to debate just for the debate, with no real hope of "converting" the other. Others, as soon as they sense that they can't "convert" the other, they stop bothering to debate. But what happens when, as @muir mentioned, someone has both clear insight and integrity? How would an INFJ treat that compared with an INFP? Or would they treat it the same? It sounds like the INFJ would get too aggressive, while the INFP would refrain from discussing because they don't tend to proselytize, they only mention things they want to discuss and explore. .

I would sooner think the INFJ would leave things alone if they felt that the argument was disrupting the harmony of the group or they felt they weren't getting anywhere; NFJ's are more diplomatic in nature and think ahead. They know that if they let an argument get too out of hand, the other person may be a lot less receptive to their ideas later. They use Fe to convince others, which is way more holistic in nature and doesn't lend itself to toe-to-toe debate. They are more likely to retreat, think about it and come back when the group or person is more receptive.

This is unlike XNFPs who use Te, which is a more assertive and 'out loud' way of thinking and figuring things out.

I would be quicker to state that NFPs make for the more competent debaters with the more staying power; they don't self-question or analyze what the group is feeling in the moment or what their perspectives are and what is right or what is wrong. Fi and Te are on full display and you can consider the implications of what that means. In the heat of battle, no one is more convinced they're right, body and soul, than the NFP. Their Ne makes them super adaptable to any situation. Watch how quickly an NFP (or any Ne user, really) can switch gears or derail a topic in a debate to make sure they come out on top. To them, there's always a broader, bigger picture to consider because they know, somewhere in that picture, they can find a way to be right. It's astounding.

 

[DonTaushMe]

Ok, that makes sense and explains some of what I think I'm seeing. Some people seem to debate just for the debate, with no real hope of "converting" the other. Others, as soon as they sense that they can't "convert" the other, they stop bothering to debate. But what happens when, as [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] mentioned, someone has both clear insight and integrity? How would an INFJ treat that compared with an INFP? Or would they treat it the same? It sounds like the INFJ would get too aggressive, while the INFP would refrain from discussing because they don't tend to proselytize, they only mention things they want to discuss and explore. Right?

@Grayman
Sometimes however an Ne user is maybe just be throwing an Ne bomb to see how everyone reacts. I wonder what people will do when I put this highly controversial statement out there... Generally I can recognize it but I wonder if an Ni user can...
I don't understand that at all. Why would someone say something highly controversial just to see how others react? Is it a controversial statement that they don't actually believe in? Is that what the topic of this thread is? I'm lost on this suggestion; I just don't see why anyone would do that.

This is exactly what the original poster did and has explained his intent. Don't truly know if its an Ne thing, I have focused more on learning about Fi.

 

[DonTaushMe]

I don't think a person can be a certain Enneagram type his whole life. The character changes, to better or to worse.
Enneagram as a system just observes some archetypes, idiosyncrasies and characteristics of people and poorly frames them into just 9 types, with no real basis of explanations for the behaviour of those types.

Take for example the type 4 in Enneagram. What is a Individualist? It is something who's behaviour can be described in virtue of itself or just in comparation with other people? Can it be that a person can be a Individualist loner all his life? And if it can, in the virtue of what...there is some DNA Individualist code in him, or its something about his character as a person?
What if the Enneagram descriptions are true in a descriptive perspective, but not in a prescriptive one?

I was supposedly a Enneagram 4, a few years ago. I thought I would be a loner all my life, and I was searching for that "something" that was missing me, exactly like in the Enneagram description. Later I've discovered that it was all in my head, and I can change in the direction I want, especialy my very core, my character.

Needless to say, I think I know now that all these MBTI, Enneagram, Big 5, Socionics and whatever you want are after all valuable in a descriptive sense, but it says nothing more, something of a real insight and value. It just observes how people act, their desires, their fears, their needs, and making some "types" out of them. But people do change in a lifetime, sometimes surprisingly much.


Yeah, INFJs are dreamy also, but not for moral ideals. That's a Fi thing. INFJs think and delude themselfs that they know something about morality. Most of INFJs who are lacking self-confidence want to save the world...when they get better with their life, sudenly they forget to save the world. The history is full of dreamers with saving the world fantasies, yet in the very place they were born, the majority of people there were better moraly.9that's just something I can bet for).

I hate to say it, but we are very superficial beings in this sense.


I don't think that's true. Every person wants to see progression within himself, not just INFPs.

To phrase what I had said earlier in a less black and white tone, INFPs will see progression in themselves greater than INFJs -while INFJs will still grow as well INFJs will see more growth in those around them than an INFP would. Both, hopefully, will effect their environment as well as their inner growth however INFPs will grow more in self because that is their first function and INFJs will grow more in environment because of their Fe and their 'leadership.'

 

[DonTaushMe]

You know, at first I avoided this thread because I thought the word "deluded" was too negatively charged, but now I'm glad I read it. It is interesting the similarities between INFJ and INFP, but the differences are much more interesting to me. I've noticed that there appear to be two "types" of INFJ members on the forum, some of whom discuss issues as objectively as they can, others seem exceptionally pre-judgmental and bring up topics not to discuss but to try to "affirm". Like they're not open to discussing the topic with anyone that disagrees; they're just looking for others to agree with their strong feelings. I wonder if that is what you mean about INFPs self-identifying as INFJ but actually thinking quite differently.

I really don't like to say that they are deluded, though. If they are mistaken, they suffer more than anyone else for having inaccurate information to guide them. If they are honest with themselves and find out that they are closer to INFP, they can benefit from deeper understanding of themselves, right? Saying they are deluded makes it sound like they're pretending to be something better than what they deserve, and I don't believe any personality type is naturally better than any other. It's just how far along you are in developing your strengths and overcoming your weaknesses.

I think I agree very much with [MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION], though, that we can't take MBTI as a way of forcing a label on others or even on ourselves. We can all benefit from better insight into our lives, but if we let this turn into an "us vs. them" scenario we're not benefiting anymore...

MBTI is not a one size fits all. You cannot base selfishness and stubbornness just to the INFP, it doesn't work that way. That is why when I addressed LucyJr I pointed out Enneagram 4 as being the problem. Those people on this forum who argue to no end and are just annoying as all hell to all of us are still INFJs and I can say that with certainty because their thought process is nothing like mine. Now I don't mean that because they don't come to the same conclusion that's why we're so different, I mean they do not think in the function order that I do.

Most of them I have seen their thought process before as INFJ with Enneagram 4 and have interacted with that in real life so it's easier for me to identify it. From reading your text I felt you are saying those INFJs who are hardheaded and obnoxious are really just INFPs, and if that is not what you meant I'm glad however I can tell you with certainty, having seen this behavior and this thought process that it is not the INFPs thought process. A lot of INFPs are Enneagram 4 but the difference in the way an INFJ and an INFP Enneagram 4 act and think are still prominent differences. INFPs and INFJs sound alike until they start talking, because realistically we're both very quiet.

 

[DonTaushMe]

I would sooner think the INFJ would leave things alone if they felt that the argument was disrupting the harmony of the group or they felt they weren't getting anywhere; NFJ's are more diplomatic in nature and think ahead. They know that if they let an argument get too out of hand, the other person may be a lot less receptive to their ideas later. They use Fe to convince others, which is way more holistic in nature and doesn't lend itself to toe-to-toe debate. They are more likely to retreat, think about it and come back when the group or person is more receptive.

This is unlike XNFPs who use Te, which is a more assertive and 'out loud' way of thinking and figuring things out.

I would be quicker to state that NFPs make for the more competent debaters with the more staying power; they don't self-question or analyze what the group is feeling in the moment or what their perspectives are and what is right or what is wrong. Fi and Te are on full display and you can consider the implications of what that means. In the heat of battle, no one is more convinced they're right, body and soul, than the NFP. Their Ne makes them super adaptable to any situation. Watch how quickly an NFP (or any Ne user, really) can switch gears or derail a topic in a debate to make sure they come out on top. To them, there's always a broader, bigger picture to consider because they know, somewhere in that picture, they can find a way to be right. It's astounding.

Am thinking about this, don't know if I agree in the case of an INFP. I think INFPs are capable of it so long as they are passionate enough about the topic however I don't see INFPs ever being that passionate. I have done the Fi Te thing in a debate and its just so damn draining, around ten minutes in the only thought in my head playing over and over again is, 'leave me alone!' and I think that's because of the Fi being the first function. If it were Te first then Fi like in an ESTJ then I could see that doing a lot of damage because I've had that and those people fucking infuriate me and by the beginning I'm already screaming in my head 'leave me alone!!!' INFPs are usually too sensitive to themselves to continue fighting with others. Or rather debating, which I of course see as fighting. INFPs are not safe in debates, I am not safe at least >.>

 

[muir]

I would sooner think the INFJ would leave things alone if they felt that the argument was disrupting the harmony of the group or they felt they weren't getting anywhere; NFJ's are more diplomatic in nature and think ahead. They know that if they let an argument get too out of hand, the other person may be a lot less receptive to their ideas later. They use Fe to convince others, which is way more holistic in nature and doesn't lend itself to toe-to-toe debate. They are more likely to retreat, think about it and come back when the group or person is more receptive.

This is unlike XNFPs who use Te, which is a more assertive and 'out loud' way of thinking and figuring things out.

I would be quicker to state that NFPs make for the more competent debaters with the more staying power; they don't self-question or analyze what the group is feeling in the moment or what their perspectives are and what is right or what is wrong. Fi and Te are on full display and you can consider the implications of what that means. In the heat of battle, no one is more convinced they're right, body and soul, than the NFP. Their Ne makes them super adaptable to any situation. Watch how quickly an NFP (or any Ne user, really) can switch gears or derail a topic in a debate to make sure they come out on top. To them, there's always a broader, bigger picture to consider because they know, somewhere in that picture, they can find a way to be right. It's astounding.

Nah if an INFJ decides to hold their ground they will

Think of famous INFJ's who have led movements...you don't do that by bending at the first breeze

 

[sassafras]

Nah if an INFJ decides to hold their ground they will

Think of famous INFJ's who have led movements...you don't do that by bending at the first breeze

No. I didn't say that they wouldn't hold their ground or even that they'd bend at the first breeze. I said they'd sooner retreat, regroup and then re-approach from another angle as a diplomatic strategy. NFPs are less concerned with drawing blood if they're in the heat of the moment, because unlike Fe, Fi is usually convinced it is right.

Furthermore, Fi is turned inwardly. The extroverted judging functions on display are Te and Ne. A lot of FPs sometimes do not look like feelers until their buttons are really pushed. They express themselves using Se, Te or Te, Ne.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

Enneagram 4 is where that 'I'm unique' crap comes from and that's crazy and I don't like that either. At the same time a lot of INFPs are Enneagram 4.

I've known several people who are prone to that behaviour. The vast majority of them aren't 4s, nor INFJs/Ps. Most of the woe is me comes through more intelligent ways, than the obvious ones, say artistic endeavors by example.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

I don't think a person can be a certain Enneagram type his whole life. The character changes, to better or to worse.
Enneagram as a system just observes some archetypes, idiosyncrasies and characteristics of people and poorly frames them into just 9 types, with no real basis of explanations for the behaviour of those types.

Take for example the type 4 in Enneagram. What is a Individualist? It is something who's behaviour can be described in virtue of itself or just in comparation with other people? Can it be that a person can be a Individualist loner all his life? And if it can, in the virtue of what...there is some DNA Individualist code in him, or its something about his character as a person?
What if the Enneagram descriptions are true in a descriptive perspective, but not in a prescriptive one?

I was supposedly a Enneagram 4, a few years ago. I thought I would be a loner all my life, and I was searching for that "something" that was missing me, exactly like in the Enneagram description. Later I've discovered that it was all in my head, and I can change in the direction I want, especialy my very core, my character.

It is based around ego structures and fixations. In the 4s case there's pattern of feeling that your identity is attached to your moods and feelings. 4s usually amplify their internal/subjective experiences to a point where it's not normal compared to other types. Also as an image type, 4s will usually express this sense of uniqueness/defectiveness (both are pretty much tied concepts) in a pretty distinctive way.
People don't change types either.

 

[sassafras]

Am thinking about this, don't know if I agree in the case of an INFP. I think INFPs are capable of it so long as they are passionate enough about the topic however I don't see INFPs ever being that passionate. I have done the Fi Te thing in a debate and its just so damn draining, around ten minutes in the only thought in my head playing over and over again is, 'leave me alone!' and I think that's because of the Fi being the first function. If it were Te first then Fi like in an ESTJ then I could see that doing a lot of damage because I've had that and those people fucking infuriate me and by the beginning I'm already screaming in my head 'leave me alone!!!' INFPs are usually too sensitive to themselves to continue fighting with others. Or rather debating, which I of course see as fighting. INFPs are not safe in debates, I am not safe at least >.>

Fi and Te work in tandem. Te is less conscious than Fi because the INFP spends more time exploring the inner, metaphorical, limitless universe of feelings and impression and giving them name and shape, but it cannot do this without Te. In essence, it does the same kind of work on its inner world as an ESTJ does on the outer world. It's not an exact transposition, but you get the idea.

Fi dominant is very heavily value-driven, even if it has not consciously discovered what those values are. Most INFPs don't discover how they feel about a subject until someone or something accidentally trips a wire that triggers an unconscious rule violation.

Then watch them go.

Fi is fundamentally about inner values. It's not necessarily feelings. Feelings are only what show us where our beliefs and personally boundaries lay. Which is why you can tell a lot about an INFP by what they fixate on in conversation or what kind of fantasy/show they are drawn to, perhaps more so than other types. They see their dreams and desires enacted before them but they haven't yet assembled them in their heads.

its like Ti, but with the stuff we classify as 'feeling' -- senses, impressions, morals, values, desires, fears.


INFPs will flee if they value their inner peace and right to just 'be' more than anything else. However, I would say its erroneous to assume that all INFPs wish to avoid conflicts. I have seen NFPs stand their ground quite fiercely . They don't like to be treaded on and they absolutely hate having anyone tell them what to do.

If you're curious, read a little more about what the inferior Te entails and you will get a fuller picture on the type.

 

[cvp12gh5]

This thread is awesome. It comes off very "I am super special, me me me, nothing but me".

Wait a minute.

That's supposed to be an infp thing. [MENTION=12378]Hector[/MENTION], you shouldn't be ashamed of your p-ness. Someone give him "hugs" already.

Okay. Anyway. I have never heard of an infp that was embarrassed of their type. And I have never heard of an infp wanting to be an infj. I have seen people confused about their type from receiving both infp and infj results when taking the tests. But I never got the impression that they preferred infj over infp. That's absurd.

Now, I like infjs a lot, but this weird, "everyone wants to be like me attitude" is just fucking weird. No, not all of you are like that, thank god. Only the ones that make the "I need to feel important so let me make a thread about everyone wanting to be like me" thread.

If you ask me, this thread is one big infj circle-jerk. Entertaining.

And it's "deluded" not delued.

 

[WaterOx]

I'm with what switchgirl[ (don't know how to do that HTML shit sorry)

I'm always amazed how quick people are to know who they are talking to. Hell I don't assume i know what I'm looking at unless people tell me and even then....

And remember I'm God, yoda, master po infj my shit smells like roses I know everything.

Maybe better to focus on ourselves since that's all we can know....and even then....

 

[Hector]

Someone give him "hugs" already.

We can hug each other, but I have to tell you that I am not in any way interested in you. Just to clarify things.

 

[cvp12gh5]

I said "someone" not me. And did I somehow give the impression that I felt you were into me? Why would something that was never proposed in the first place need to be clarified? Strange.

 

[Hector]

I said "someone" not me. And did I somehow give the impression that I felt you were into me? Why would something that was never proposed in the first place need to be clarified? Strange.

I didn't say that you don't have any qualities to offer. It's just that I am not in that phase of my life right now, but a friendly hug is always welcome. People offer a hot beverage as a comfort, but hugs are really my specialty..