Why are so many INFPs delued that they are INFJs?

[sassafras]

I can definitely see that being indicative of Ni-Se too actually. I didn't do the best job of explaining my point. As we've said the INFP struggles with decisiveness. There is a period of initial desire for perfection, an aware abandonment of the desire when it's time to take action/shortly after action is taken, and then a return to the desire as though they didn't really mean to abandon it and just got caught up or side-tracked.

I agree.

I think with the INFJ the desire to be perfect is always there, so the INFJ will show more commitment/take more action, but may also end up not doing "enough" to reach their goal. The difference is that for the INFJ, failure will be a result of circumstances that prevent them from following through with their plans rather than just losing sight of their goal/temporary abandonment of their goal. INFJ's definitely do end up abandoning things and returning to them later, but there is more awareness in the process.

External circumstances? Er, I would disagree here. The INFJ internalized dilemma is 'I don't know enough to attempt this yet' and the INFJ will be side-tracked in a lot of busy work related to the task, but none of it really effective. This is especially prominent in an INFJ engaged in the infamous Ni-Ti loop.

Even if the INFJ and INFP arrive with the same result (failure), the INFP didn't really intend to fail in the end (though his actions and words might even have said otherwise) because he was unsure whether or not something was worth his time, whereas the INFJ had more of a false start, but eventually accepted the failure/abandoned the idea, being aware of the outcome. I guess what makes the INFP more self-sabotaging to me is that there will be something they must obviously do to achieve their goals that they are aware of that everyone else can see, but suddenly when it's time to take action, the desire to achieve them is gone (which is seen as them not trying.) With the INFJ it's when we realize that our goals are unachievable that we abandon them.

And the INFJ will beat themselves up forever for it if they realized they had engaged in self-sabotaging behaviour. Failure, like we've established above, is not an easy pill for any Inuitive Judger to swallow. The INFJ's penchant for having trouble letting go doesn't just stop at relationships, after all. If the project or task was seen as essential, and it wasn't completed because of an INFJs own incompetence, it won't be so easily abandoned as you suggested. It will come with a lot of pain that will leak into everything. The problem for INFJs isn't 'it's impossible,' it becomes ' I didn't try, because I should have tried given the information I had at the time.'

I would say INFPs have an easier time of moving on from failure (whether they see it coming or not). They realize that they didn't achieve what they wanted achieve because they didn't want it in the first place or that it wouldn't make them happy. They don't have to sort out a sense of duty to the outer-world ideals or other people's expectations the way INFJs do, so if they disappoint somebody, they only really disappoint themselves. INFPs, bottom line, don't like feeling uncomfortable and they will find a way to bounce back or otherwise find a way to avoid feeling bad. Before long, you will see them with a new interest, a new ideal, continuing to look for themselves.

"... INJs quickly learn that their visions are almost always tarnished in the process of actualization. Once the ideal has been tainted, it is easy for INJs (especially INFJs) to become despondent and lose all interest," is very accurate.

Apathy. Depression. Feelings of worthless. Yes, I would agree. Doesn't mean they 'abandon the project and move on,' though. An INTJ might, but an INFJ wouldn't pass up the opportunity to crucify itself for not being the right person for the job first.

 

[DonTaushMe]

I agree.



External circumstances? Er, I would disagree here. The INFJ internalized dilemma is 'I don't know enough to attempt this yet' and the INFJ will be side-tracked in a lot of busy work related to the task, but none of it really effective. This is especially prominent in an INFJ engaged in the infamous Ni-Ti loop.



And the INFJ will beat themselves up forever for it if they realized they had engaged in self-sabotaging behaviour. Failure, like we've established above, is not an easy pill for any Inuitive Judger to swallow. The INFJ's penchant for having trouble letting go doesn't just stop at relationships, after all. If the project or task was seen as essential, and it wasn't completed because of an INFJs own incompetence, it won't be so easily abandoned as you suggested. It will come with a lot of pain that will leak into everything. The problem for INFJs isn't 'it's impossible,' it becomes ' I didn't try, because I should have tried given the information I had at the time.'

I would say INFPs have an easier time of moving on from failure (whether they see it coming or not). They realize that they didn't achieve what they wanted achieve because they didn't want it in the first place or that it wouldn't make them happy. They don't have to sort out a sense of duty to the outer-world ideals or other people's expectations the way INFJs do, so if they disappoint somebody, they only really disappoint themselves. INFPs, bottom line, don't like feeling uncomfortable and they will find a way to bounce back or otherwise find a way to avoid feeling bad. Before long, you will see them with a new interest, a new ideal, continuing to look for themselves.



Apathy. Depression. Feelings of worthless. Yes, I would agree. Doesn't mean they 'abandon the project and move on,' though. An INTJ might, but an INFJ wouldn't pass up the opportunity to crucify itself for not being the right person for the job first.

I am very resilient

 

[DonTaushMe]

Has anyone else noticed that INFP's have almost a kind of, I don't know... unfulfilled perfectionism? I can't think of just how to describe it. They have this (occasional) desire to be perfect and good, but seem to get easily distracted or just never really follow through with their ambitions. Most of the time they will defend their lack of accomplishment, not doing what they were supposed to, etc. if you point it out to them or try to get them back on task, but they will later beat themselves up for it (often when it is too late.) (Not saying this is true for all INFP's, but I have seen it happen many times.)

The perfectionism of the INFJ is much more tortuous and demanding, much more defined and prevalent.

This isn't the best example of what I had talked about, but an INFP male who I had a very close relationship with once told me he wanted to make good grades initially, but soon decided that putting forth a lot of effort and really trying was too hard for him to do and was too much of a risk. Because at least if he didn't try and failed, he could live with himself because he knows he could have done better. If he had tried and failed then he would have been completely ashamed. I understand this way of thinking, but I also find it to be completely absurd and impractical. The end result is the same: failure. And your mistakes catch up to you eventually. At the end of the day, nobody is going to really know how hard you worked, all they will see are the results.

I can definitely see that being indicative of Ni-Se too actually. I didn't do the best job of explaining my point. As we've said the INFP struggles with decisiveness. There is a period of initial desire for perfection, an aware abandonment of the desire when it's time to take action/shortly after action is taken, and then a return to the desire as though they didn't really mean to abandon it and just got caught up or side-tracked.

I think with the INFJ the desire to be perfect is always there, so the INFJ will show more commitment/take more action, but may also end up not doing "enough" to reach their goal. The difference is that for the INFJ, failure will be a result of circumstances that prevent them from following through with their plans rather than just losing sight of their goal/temporary abandonment of their goal. INFJ's definitely do end up abandoning things and returning to them later, but there is more awareness in the process.

Even if the INFJ and INFP arrive with the same result (failure), the INFP didn't really intend to fail in the end (though his actions and words might even have said otherwise) because he was unsure whether or not something was worth his time, whereas the INFJ had more of a false start, but eventually accepted the failure/abandoned the idea, being aware of the outcome. I guess what makes the INFP more self-sabotaging to me is that there will be something they must obviously do to achieve their goals that they are aware of that everyone else can see, but suddenly when it's time to take action, the desire to achieve them is gone (which is seen as them not trying.) With the INFJ it's when we realize that our goals are unachievable that we abandon them.

"... INJs quickly learn that their visions are almost always tarnished in the process of actualization. Once the ideal has been tainted, it is easy for INJs (especially INFJs) to become despondent and lose all interest," is very accurate.

When I read what your friend had said I thought to myself, "well I've never said that but I'm sure he'll grow out of it if he's an INFP" and then Daring said that that is more of an INFJs way of thinking and I agree. That kid I loath who I will always refer to on this forum as he is the most unhealthy INFJ I've ever met in real life said shit like that. He was telling me about how he wanted to write the Jim Henson company a letter expressing how happy he was that the muppets were a show and that he had just seen a commercial or something of the same and it drove him to tears and he needed to express how grateful he was. I was happy to hear this and urged him to write them a letter expressing himself. He of course back peddled and explained himself out of writing the letter saying that they must get so many letters, his wouldn't make a difference. The more I questioned the more he explained the less I respected him. It came down to the point that if he wouldn't get recognition for writing them a letter that he wont write them a letter. His way of thinking was very selfish and very disgusting to me. Reasons why I loath this kid.

Now when I was friends with this kid he was very... he had a lot of ideas and no will power to see them to light. So I would urge him to do stuff by taking on his ideas and we would talk on how to make one idea better and all of a sudden it's my idea and he sees me not following through with this idea and he thinks I lack drive. The thing I see is that it was never my idea, I'm trying to persuade this ass-hat to work and he's running out my patience. So if you see that an INFP, which I'm not sure your friend is, not taking action in something they seem to talk a lot about it's usually because those were not our ideas to begin with. We were sympathizing with someone, we were empathizing, we were putting ourselves in their shoes and giving them ideas to help them go along -we are mirrors of most people because we have that ability. I use to not be able to voice out, "hey kid, this isn't my idea, this is not my passion, I am being passionate about it to try to get you to do something" and so it looked like I was being passionate without action when that's not the case, I was just not able to articulate what I was doing and why.

INFJs are very demanding of INFPs and the relationship becomes very unsafe for the INFP very quickly and the INFP is more than ready to run for the hills by the end of it. No clue what happens to the INFJ after the fact, apparently they're hurt is what I hear, while the INFP runs through meadows chasing butter flies yelling, "I'm free I'm free!" and you can literally see this depressive weight lifting off their shoulders. I was never more battered to the ground than I was being friends with an INFJ. And a lot of INFJs on this forum have experienced this same kind of thing which is why there is a lot of INFP angst going on in this thread [MENTION=11100]flower[/MENTION] -It's not us; we're not the problem. Misunderstanding is the problem.

 

[sprinkles]

Judging is a lot about being particular and structured for yourself and surroundings which can be mistaken for "ME" behavior when things don't meet ones expectations.

An obsessive level of Judging might even look like Perceiving when people come in and try to impose their order and the INFJ objects to it (as in my case). It's not that I don't want the structure, I wan't MY structure, not yours. That is a lot more J than P imo.

 

[sassafras]

Judging is a lot about being particular and structured for yourself and surroundings which can be mistaken for "ME" behavior when things don't meet ones expectations.

An obsessive level of Judging might even look like Perceiving when people come in and try to impose their order and the INFJ objects to it (as in my case). It's not that I don't want the structure, I wan't MY structure, not yours. That is a lot more J than P imo.

Maybe there's more to you using this as a personal example, or perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean, but on a two-dimensional level, opposition to external structure and authority is more of a Fi-Te thing in my opinion. INFJ won't bristle at being told what to do if it agrees; Ni-Fe, especially, will consider if maybe the authority figure is right, as they do take their cue for inner structuring from the outside world and often grapple with self-doubt. For INFJs, they feel like outsiders looking in and they feel like other people know how to do it better. For INFPs, to a certain degree, it's the exact opposite.

 

[sprinkles]

That opposition to authority is more Fi-Te, in my opinion. INFJ won't bristle at being told what to do if it agrees; Ni-Fe, especially, will consider if maybe the authority figure is right, as they do take their cue for inner structuring from the outside world and feel a bit if self-doubt. For INFJs, they feel like outsiders looking in and they feel like other people know how to do it better. For INFPs, to a certain degree, it's the exact opposite.

I'm not talking about authority though because that is only a subset of general interactions.

And it's true, maybe the INFJ won't bristle IF it agrees. If.

INFJs may feel like outsiders and feel other people do it better for mundane social interactions, but less so for philosophical or moral standards i.e. the stuff that matters.

Being wishy-washy and unsure and taking too many cues from others is decidedly not a J thing.

 

[sassafras]

I'm not talking about authority though because that is only a subset of general interactions.

And it's true, maybe the INFJ won't bristle IF it agrees. If.

INFJs may feel like outsiders and feel other people do it better for mundane social interactions, but less so for philosophical or moral standards i.e. the stuff that matters.

Being wishy-washy and unsure and taking too many cues from others is decidedly not a J thing.

This is not what I meant.

Wishy-washy is not the same thing as having self-doubt. INFJs are great system builders outside of themselves, and hence their uncanny insights into people, but when it comes to themselves, they don't have it all together. They don't know what they themselves feel, but rather what they should or shouldn't feel. Like their ENFJ cousins, they'll try to align their actions and thinking with others who have achieved something they wanted or with some drummed up fantasy of an ideal what they believe things should be like, and reach for it there.

This is why the common complaint about INFJs (and indeed, Fe users in general) is that their morals and standards come across as synthetic-- more cerebral and based on patterning outside of themselves-- rather than something that they, as people, connect with on a more raw, emotional level the way Fi-types do. Fe, as a function, considers the holistic big picture that INFJs instinctively feel they belong to, but haven't quite figured out how to actualize it just yet. So they do a lot of turning things around in their heads as to how they can get themselves there. In this sense your earlier point about them sometimes looking obsessed with processes is entirely correct. What I disagreed with is the 'but it's MY vision' sort of thing. INFJs aren't quite so attached to the 'I' concept.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION]

Wait, I get what you are saying now. I think it's true.

However, what is internal and externally derived becomes incredibly confusing because a lot of what people call "Internal values" aren't - they've been informed externally. Bristling is not automatic Fi.

I for example defend a lot of things which I personally don't give a crap about because I'm concerned with others and am informed by the needs of others. This doesn't mean I'm a doormat.

I care about relationships. I care about how other people feel. I became self centered as a defense mechanism more than anything else. My Ni and Fe used to be quite obvious until assholes got their claws into me.

I'd love nothing more than to build relationships but I don't like being abused. I had to get rough to survive. I don't want to be selfish and secretly it hurts me when I am. I've been mishandled and basically ruined by letting myself be influenced by others so I'm not too keen on letting people in anymore.

 

[sprinkles]

What I disagreed with is the 'but it's MY vision' sort of thing. INFJs aren't quite so attached to the 'I' concept.

Also I don't mean "MY" for the sake of individuality alone just to be individual. I mean "MY" as a side effect of there being a difference while still being able to hold a view of some kind.

There's a difference between "I think" and "I think." They can look similar but they are not the same, and when you hit the overlap point, there's no telling. Or look at it as the difference between "This idea is MINE" and "My idea is". The former claims a strong ownership, and the latter is more of an identifier.

We have to have the individuality in order to share such ideas. Otherwise there won't be INFJs, they'd chameleon into another type.

 

[sassafras]

Also I don't mean "MY" for the sake of individuality alone just to be individual. I mean "MY" as a side effect of there being a difference while still being able to hold a view of some kind.

There's a difference between "I think" and "I think." They can look similar but they are not the same, and when you hit the overlap point, there's no telling. Or look at it as the difference between "This idea is MINE" and "My idea is". The former claims a strong ownership, and the latter is more of an identifier.

We have to have the individuality in order to share such ideas. Otherwise there won't be INFJs, they'd chameleon into another type.

Errr, I think this is fairly obvious, but I suppose it never hurts to emphasize that when speaking of types, we are speaking in terms of generalities and long-range patterns of behaviour. I clarified below.

@TheDaringHatTrick

Wait, I get what you are saying now. I think it's true.

However, what is internal and externally derived becomes incredibly confusing because a lot of what people call "Internal values" aren't - they've been informed externally. Bristling is not automatic Fi.

Again, I agree. No one type has a monopoly on bristling against authority from time to time, but looking at a long-range and general pattern of behaviours--eternally defending the 'I', 'because I said so, ME not YOU''-- that would definitely be a Fi thing. Fe doesn't have problems with authority or tradition unless it perceives it as being harmful to the current social fabric.

Your point about internally derived values being externally informed is true as well, but once more, there are differences in how we experience them and how we process things that are translated to patterns in behaviour and speech that point to the functions at work. INFPs are constantly in search of the I as separate from others. A rather general example would be the emphasis on 'other people do X but I do Y' or 'I don't get why people don't do A, when I feel its B,' 'in my experience this is x, y, z...' or the more effusive 'ahaha, I'm the exception to the rule, so I just broke your system, fuck you.'

Naturally, one or two instances of this conversational rubric isn't "OMG, YOUR TRANSFORMING INTO A FI-USER RIGHT BEFORE MY VERY EYES' but a consistent pattern of the emphasis on the personal experience over objectivity would certainly separate the usual individualization of 'this is my opinion' from the continuous, conscious effort to individualize and draw attention to the self.

INFJsm on the other hand, are more about aligning the I in the image of the ideal and fall into this eternal 'shoulding' and unconscious appreciation for universal laws and ideals. Given this, their natural means of communication would be more geared towards the experience, the system, the objective without the consistent emphasis on the I, because the internal experience of the structure isn't as important as the structure itself. This is the extroverted judging function at work.

I for example defend a lot of things which I personally don't give a crap about because I'm concerned with others and am informed by the needs of others. This doesn't mean I'm a doormat.

Doormatism isn't something that automatically comes to mind in this case, to be honest. I see being concerned with and informed by the needs of others as a strength.

I care about relationships. I care about how other people feel. I became self centered as a defense mechanism more than anything else. My Ni and Fe used to be quite obvious until assholes got their claws into me.

I'd love nothing more than to build relationships but I don't like being abused. I had to get rough to survive. I don't want to be selfish and secretly it hurts me when I am. I've been mishandled and basically ruined by letting myself be influenced by others so I'm not too keen on letting people in anymore.

Being hurt by others and having your trust destroyed and needing to protect oneself, is sadly, too common an experience in people who are willing to open themselves up to others.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION]

Well it can lead to doormatism. Such as "You're supposed to be caring! WHY DIDN'T YOU THINK OF ME?"

"You're right... I'm so sorry... I'm a terrible person. I don't belong here." *goes off to huddle in the dark corner and emotionally flog self as punishment* *later redoubles effort to be kind and considerate, providing benefits to those interested*

"Baha. It worked. I guilt tripped her into doing what I want." *commence evil hand washing.* *sit on throne of evil* *pet cat of evil* "All according to plan, muahahahahaha."

 

[sassafras]

@TheDaringHatTrick

Well it can lead to doormatism. Such as "You're supposed to be caring! WHY DIDN'T YOU THINK OF ME?"

"You're right... I'm so sorry... I'm a terrible person. I don't belong here." *goes off to huddle in the dark corner and emotionally flog self as punishment* *later redoubles effort to be kind and considerate, providing benefits to those interested*

"Baha. It worked. I guilt tripped her into doing what I want." *commence evil hand washing.* *sit on throne of evil* *pet cat of evil* "All according to plan, muahahahahaha."

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here.

 

[sprinkles]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here.

It's called taking advantage of those who appease others to get what you want. People claim to be insulted or hurt, insinuate that you're inconsiderate or not a good friend to play against your real desire to be considerate and maintain social order as a means of getting you to feel guilty and uncertain about valid boundaries. Thus they can push you and cross lines to get things which they probably shouldn't.

 

[sassafras]

It's called taking advantage of those who appease others to get what you want. People claim to be insulted or hurt, insinuate that you're inconsiderate or not a good friend to play against your real desire to be considerate and maintain social order as a means of getting you to feel guilty and uncertain about valid boundaries. Thus they can push you and cross lines to get things which they probably shouldn't.

Ah, okay, we kind of derailed here a bit. My headspace was still with 'what does this have to do with Fe/MBTI?' Now I realize you were specifically clarifying doormatism.

 

[Gaze]

I would say INFPs have an easier time of moving on from failure (whether they see it coming or not). They realize that they didn't achieve what they wanted achieve because they didn't want it in the first place or that it wouldn't make them happy. They don't have to sort out a sense of duty to the outer-world ideals or other people's expectations the way INFJs do, so if they disappoint somebody, they only really disappoint themselves. INFPs, bottom line, don't like feeling uncomfortable and they will find a way to bounce back or otherwise find a way to avoid feeling bad. Before long, you will see them with a new interest, a new ideal, continuing to look for themselves.
.

I think it depends on the person. Assuming I'm a true INFP, I'd say it takes me a long time to move on. However, when I make the decision to move on, it's final. I don't like sitting on the issue because then I will feel guilty, and face regret. Sometimes, I find people will expect me to feel bad about something when I had already let it go. Again, I feel a strong sense of duty. I feel guilty if I disappoint others and myself. Both are causes of major stress sometimes. This sounds like a Fe trait, but I've always experienced this.

Maybe there's more to you using this as a personal example, or perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean, but on a two-dimensional level, opposition to external structure and authority is more of a Fi-Te thing in my opinion. INFJ won't bristle at being told what to do if it agrees; Ni-Fe, especially, will consider if maybe the authority figure is right, as they do take their cue for inner structuring from the outside world and often grapple with self-doubt. For INFJs, they feel like outsiders looking in and they feel like other people know how to do it better. For INFPs, to a certain degree, it's the exact opposite.

What you describe here would describe me. I never had a problem following authority. I never felt the need to question or challenge authority. I always used to think it was silly when people felt the need to challenge authority as if they need to assert their individuality above respecting authority. It seemed a bit too much about ego. I now realize this may have been because I grew up in a collectivist culture which values authority, social harmony, vs. dissention or resistance. It was more valued to follow the leader than move to the beat of your own drum. Growing up, we were taught not to question authority. I took it for granted that authority was law. Now, I am more willing to challenge misconceptions or express disagreement.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1669]pics[/MENTION]
Not everyone challenges authority simply because they don't like being told what to do.

There's a big problem with authority in the sense that it can brutalize society and prohibit useful growth.

Authority for the sake of authority is just as bad as freedom for the sake of freedom. "Because I said so" is never a good reason, and neither is "Because I don't want to be told"

 

[Gaze]

@pics
Not everyone challenges authority simply because they don't like being told what to do.

There's a big problem with authority in the sense that it can brutalize society and prohibit useful growth.

Authority for the sake of authority is just as bad as freedom for the sake of freedom. "Because I said so" is never a good reason, and neither is "Because I don't want to be told"

Interesting, I don't remember mentioning that the only reason to have a problem with authority is not being told. I only explained the resistance to authority as I understood it based on my own experience. I don't remember stating that it was the only reason to challenge or resist authority.


Why are people reading absolute statements into comments that are merely opinion, personal preference, or experience? I said, "I believe, thought, or experienced this . . . " . . . and someone interprets this as "I believe my beliefs or statements are absolute." wtf????????????????? do people not know how to read anymore?

 

[Switchgirl]

INFJ or INFP?:

Always respecting authority initially, no if's, ands, or buts.

Later on, if the authority figure proves themselves to be worthy of respect, the more compliant and supportive of them you will be.

If that person does not prove themselves to be worthy of respect whatsoever, it's fuck all from there.

(Baha, this does sounds like it could apply to almost everyone, though XD).

 

[Gaze]

INFJ or INFP?:

Always respecting authority initially, no if's, ands, or buts.

Later on, if the authority figure proves themselves to be worthy of respect, the more compliant and supportive of them you will be.

If that person does not prove themselves to be worthy of respect whatsoever, it's fuck all from there.

(Baha, this does sounds like it could apply to almost everyone, though XD).

agree. So, maybe the problem is assuming that these qualities are type based rather than based on individual choices, values or preferences.

 

[sprinkles]

Interesting, I don't remember mentioning that the only reason to have a problem with authority is not being told. I only explained the resistance to authority as I understood it based on my own experience. I don't remember stating that it was the only reason to challenge or resist authority.


Why are people reading absolute statements into comments that are merely opinion, personal preference, or experience? I said, "I believe, thought, or experienced this . . . " . . . and someone interprets this as "I believe my beliefs or statements are absolute." wtf????????????????? do people not know how to read anymore?

I also don't remember saying that you said it was the only reason. Experiences and beliefs can be incomplete and I was affirming a bigger picture. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I said.

I was very open ended and made no accusations in my writing. It is you who chose to put them there for whatever reason.