What makes you believe? | INFJ Forum

What makes you believe?

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T

The Jester

I've seen threads where people say:
'Seeing how the world works, it was just impossible for me to believe there isn't something out there.'

Now, I'm wondering, what exactly is it that makes you believe?

Please don't go off-topic here and talk about your religion,
I want to know what exactly makes you believe there's something out there,
except for being raised in a certain environment that has certain beliefs.
 
The Jester said:
I've seen threads where people say:
'Seeing how the world works, it was just impossible for me to believe there isn't something out there.'

Now, I'm wondering, what exactly is it that makes you believe?

Please don't go off-topic here and talk about your religion,
I want to know what exactly makes you believe there's something out there,
except for being raised in a certain environment that has certain beliefs.
Click to expand...

... maybe it's intuition. maybe something to do with the absolute complexity of the universe and in particular the human body. the overwhelming odds against us being here, vs. the reality that we are. i don't know. honestly i find it extrodinarily hard to define exactly where i stand in regard to supernatural entities (including God)... both sides seem somewhat plausible.

i'm not sure what i'm trying to say :|
 
While I don't believe in a god or anything else that has yet to be proven, that's not to say that I can't find belief in things. Strangely I guess you could say that evidence makes me believe. For example, I believe that certain things in the future will happen, predictions if you will. To be able to believe these things will happen I have to look at what's happening in the present.

Theories work in the same way.
 
It's seeing how many things are not explained at all or only to some extent. I have a need to better understand things around me as a whole, and as sometimes in that whole there are holes :) of things not explained or not understood thoroughly, I have a need to fill them in by believing that something more exists that makes a connection between those things. It maybe some force of nature that is unknown to us yet, or whatever, but I do believe that there is more than we can see, feel or know at the moment.
 
I mean, honestly, all the evidence around us. You may see the glory of scientific evolution, I see the glory of God. We all have the same evidence, we just interpret it differently.

But I also believe in the natural order of things, as stated earlier, the universe is so complex, and simply amazing. Could it come like this by itself? Nope. :p
 
Urtehnoes said:
I mean, honestly, all the evidence around us. You may see the glory of scientific evolution, I see the glory of God. We all have the same evidence, we just interpret it differently.

But I also believe in the natural order of things, as stated earlier, the universe is so complex, and simply amazing. Could it come like this by itself? Nope. :p
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why not? it could have. we weren't around to see how everything started, we can only infer based on what we know now (and what we know is probably very little in proportion to what could be known).

also the universe being complicated and glorious isn't necessarily evidence of anything, though in the absence of a god i'd say it's still a pretty good reason to cherish life
 
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For me its those particular moments where things seem to slow down and parts of me connect with the world that seem normally dormant. I don't necessarily know that I interpret it the way those raised in a Theist tradition do, but none-the-less it is a profound experience.
 
April said:
why not? it could have. we weren't around to see how everything started, we can only infer based on what we know now (and what we know is probably very little in proportion to what could be known).

also the universe being complicated and glorious isn't necessarily evidence of anything, though in the absence of a god i'd say it's still a pretty good reason to cherish life
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It's what I believe to be true, I've most certainly considered the alternative. However, when put against the filter in my brain, they simply do not hold any validity whatsoever.

88chaz88 said:
More and more evidence is pointing to "yes".
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THe :p signifies that I'm not being very serious. Again, I see the evidence differently, so it's pointing to no even more for me.
 
April said:
to what evidence are you referring, Chaz?
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Different species surviving = evolution.

Volcanoes = active magma under the Earth's crust.

Tides = gravitaional effect of the moon.

A lot of things that were supposedly done by god is proven to form naturally. We just keep shifting the idea of what god can do to make way for new evidence. Hell we even know that cells can form quite naturally which leads to sentient life beginning from essentially nothing given the right circumstances.

Just leaves the question if it's all been divine intervention or cosmic coincidence. In fact it really inspires more of a gaian belief than anything.
 
Urtehnoes said:
It's what I believe to be true, I've most certainly considered the alternative. However, when put against the filter in my brain, they simply do not hold any validity whatsoever.
THe :p signifies that I'm not being very serious. Again, I see the evidence differently, so it's pointing to no even more for me.
Click to expand...


fair enough, but if you don't mind could you please explain what you mean by evidence? cause i'm thinking evidence = irrefutable proof of a single causal link. don't really understand how the glory of the physical world (and i agree, it is amazing) constitutes evidence in this definition of the word :/
 
88chaz88 said:
Different species surviving = evolution.

Volcanoes = active magma under the Earth's crust.

Tides = gravitaional effect of the moon.

A lot of things that were supposedly done by god is proven to form naturally. We just keep shifting the idea of what god can do to make way for new evidence. Hell we even know that cells can form quite naturally which leads to sentient life beginning from essentially nothing given the right circumstances.

Just leaves the question if it's all been divine intervention or cosmic coincidence. In fact it really inspires more of a gaian belief than anything.
Click to expand...


Well also it's a known fact that God uses actual science to perform his miracles. God said in the Bible that he uses Science to glorify himself. And thats the clincher for me. All these littlethings like volcanoes and tide, simply because they are that means nothing to the existence of God or not.
 
The Jester said:
I want to know what exactly makes you believe there's something out there, except for being raised in a certain environment that has certain beliefs.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is some-thing out there.

My belief is in no-thing. No-thing-ness.

Why do I believe this? It is the best sense my awareness and mind have come to understand as it concerns my experiences with years of exploratory disciplines such as meditation and the sacramental use of entheogens.

To me, the question isn't so much if there is something out there (or not) as much as there are questions such as "what is 'out there,' who am I, is there really any difference between, and even if there is or isn't, how may I become aware enough to perceive it?"


cheers,
Ian
 
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88chaz88 said:
Different species surviving = evolution.

Volcanoes = active magma under the Earth's crust.

Tides = gravitaional effect of the moon.

A lot of things that were supposedly done by god is proven to form naturally. We just keep shifting the idea of what god can do to make way for new evidence. Hell we even know that cells can form quite naturally which leads to sentient life beginning from essentially nothing given the right circumstances.

Just leaves the question if it's all been divine intervention or cosmic coincidence. In fact it really inspires more of a gaian belief than anything.
Click to expand...

thankyou =) to be fair though god could've instigated the pathways by which all those events occur/ed, and it's our interpretation of the precise role god plays that's faulty (maybe he just triggered the initial events, and everything else occurred spontaneously after that point. maybe the universe is a self propagating, self preserving entirely cohesive system, which god designed.) god could literally be the forces binding matter together =P or chance itself.
 
Urtehnoes said:
Well also it's a known fact that God uses actual science to perform his miracles. God said in the Bible that he uses Science to glorify himself. And thats the clincher for me. All these littlethings like volcanoes and tide, simply because they are that means nothing to the existence of God or not.
Click to expand...

What quote from the Bible? To me it just seems that religion keeps shifting the goalposts while we keep finding out more and more about the universe.

I don't deny the existence of a higher power, but I seriously doubt that a man made religion has got it right.
 
I am currently undetermined about afterlife, origins, etc.

When I did believe in a dualist point of view, I think it stemmed from some concept of necessity of linear origin. But it truly is a chicken or the egg conundrum. The only way to break it is to basically say we exist as a limited subset of infinity, something without origin.

Whether I interpret infinity as god/supernatural or simply as unending cyclical materialistic existence seems negligible to me. That is partially because I don't believe any higher power would manifest themselves in such cryptic and inefficient means. But that is getting too far into logic.

An existence of God is not self-evident or 'a priori' to me, that would be quite a tall order to believe you understand the workings of the universe well enough to state that what we perceive as subjective beauty mandates an artist or existence of complexity requires a mastermind.

I fear discontinuation to an extent, either materialistic or dualistic. Another part of me is intensely curious about the afterlife, but that may stem from a subtle escapist point-of-view due to not fully accepting life. Grass is always greener I suppose, even if that grass is dead. :p
 
88chaz88 said:
What quote from the Bible? To me it just seems that religion keeps shifting the goalposts while we keep finding out more and more about the universe.

I don't deny the existence of a higher power, but I seriously doubt that a man made religion has got it right.
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A man made religion? Well I'd be surprised as well if they got it right.


However, Christianity isn't man made. I'd say Buddhism is, and that's why I put it in a separate category.


I'll get back to you on that verse, lemme find it first. (so I can quote it directly.)
 
Urtehnoes said:
Christianity isn't man made
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Hmm... see, if you'd said 'I believe that ___' I would have been able to swallow that; I'm not trying to be mean. I'm not necessarily against the idea of God (makes the universe that much more interesting) but how do you KNOW what you believe well enough to feel comfortable laying it out as if it was scientifically measured fact that, quoth, "christianity isn't man made." It very well could be and simply is in a state of denial? I mean, science is sorta-kinda manmade (as a method, not the fundamental laws of physics it attempts to measure and predict), but it, at the very least, returns consistent (mostly) and verifiable results, unlike any religion as yet.

Sorry, I'm just rambling. My definition of faith is 'trusting when you KNOW you can't know for sure' whereas religion is more like your statement: 'This just is, and there's no point in arguing with me about it.' It's why I veer away from organized religion these days, in spite of hoping there is a god out there somewhere.
 
Urtehnoes said:
A man made religion? Well I'd be surprised as well if they got it right.


However, Christianity isn't man made. I'd say Buddhism is, and that's why I put it in a separate category.


I'll get back to you on that verse, lemme find it first. (so I can quote it directly.)
Click to expand...

What do you mean when you say that some religion isn't man made? And why do you think Buddhism is a man made religion?
 
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