thissss.
i sort of figured the above out after befriending an ISTJ female, and it certainly has taught me a bit (a very tiny bit) of patience.
What do ISTJs want from INFJs?
- Thread starter knight in battle
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i sort of figured the above out after befriending an ISTJ female, and it certainly has taught me a bit (a very tiny bit) of patience.
I have zero doubt that God put him and me in each other's faces in order to reform each other. That might be a good objective way of putting it.
Heh. Objective as in a way of seeing it from a third party perspective, with or without seeing it as a God-designed situation. (Nonetheless, seeing it as void of God can perhaps allow me to treat it as a challenge to overcome... yet without a confident optimism that something good will come out of it.) (I digress... in typical INFJ fashion. :w: )
i'm pretty sure everyone likes you muchly here. i mean you are funny as hell. you rarely say stuff that makes me want to choke you. that's my usual experience with ISTJs.
i'm not sure the judgement is subjective. i'm pretty sure the ISTJ draws his or her conclusions about a person based on solid facts.
ooo, saying that makes me feel a little inferior.
i'm fairly sure their reaction to people is Fi-based. it seems downright childish sometimes. "i'm taking my toys and leaving!" i get that a lot from my ISTJ friend.
[MENTION=3791]knight in battle[/MENTION]
I know. Just wanted to see what you'd say.
And you didn't disappoint
I know. Just wanted to see what you'd say.
And you didn't disappoint
I certainly would not deny a person the right to have his/her own opinion or assessment. The solid facts may be "John doesn't get good grades and doesn't wash his laundry every seven days." But the subjective reaction may be, "John is useless." Okay, wonderful opinion based on facts, but making a statement of personal worth is groundless. John may be useless when it comes to getting A's and B's or doing his laundry every Thursday, but John may be very capable of writing good essays and doing laundry every 20 days.
The reaction may be ignoring the context of the situation, or it may be covering up the feelings of worthlessness within the critique himself. While one may be relatively useless in terms on materialistic/organizational standards, he may be quite useful in relational standards. A person who is not valued by IBM may be very useful to NASA.
oh lord, ISTJs.
good explanation. this stuff is very important to remember about those people.
good explanation. this stuff is very important to remember about those people.
Indeed. I think I have a tendency to see the "pointing things out" as the beginning of a slippery slope attempt at dominance. I have no doubt that an ISTJ makes it a habit of critiquing in a negative but emotionally tempered way, just as INFJs make it a habit of empathizing with feelings. This is where one must just endure with the situation as an agreeing to disagree (i.e., "This is just who he is, but not malevolently so.") I surmise that the lives of ISTJs are cozy, regular, and well-oiled machines, but not necessarily easy.
no you didn't! lololol
omg, you must be related to my ISTJ friend. =p
that is totally something she would say.
Why do you hang out with ISTJs?
I hang out with ISTJs, because....
(A) They have admirable qualities that I want to imitate, such as reliability, mental stability, and practicality.
(B) They are esoteric and interesting, just like me.
(C) They make me think, "God, I am so much better than them!"
(D) I love it when they tell me, "Money doesn't grow on trees."
(E) They are like peaceful kittens most of the time and don't bother me.
(F) Their insults provide me with the low self-esteem that I need to survive in the real world.
(G) Social rejects need to stick together.
(H) They actually provide for their practical necessities and are responsible, unlike some of us... ahem.
(I) They're not mentally retarded... unlike me.
I hang out with ISTJs, because....
(A) They have admirable qualities that I want to imitate, such as reliability, mental stability, and practicality.
(B) They are esoteric and interesting, just like me.
(C) They make me think, "God, I am so much better than them!"
(D) I love it when they tell me, "Money doesn't grow on trees."
(E) They are like peaceful kittens most of the time and don't bother me.
(F) Their insults provide me with the low self-esteem that I need to survive in the real world.
(G) Social rejects need to stick together.
(H) They actually provide for their practical necessities and are responsible, unlike some of us... ahem.
(I) They're not mentally retarded... unlike me.
I actually like ISTJs. I lived with one for 3 years. He exemplified a stereotypical ISTJ and while we DID but heads at times he was very consistent and reliable. Which is important to me in friendships. The few times he did get angry and short with me I cannot say I didnt deserve it... Of course in my own way I can justify anything I do with a million reasons, which when you boil it down is pretty stupid because I always knew what and why something would bug him and pressed on with it anyway.
And at my lowest points (and he saw them all) when I was so out of control, laying on the floor my hands in pools of blood from punching holes in the wall and hurting myself and smashing all of our furniture he did what he did best and it actually comforted me to a degree I never thought possible. He cleaned me and it up, got me to bed, called my brother over to help, fixed the furniture and made up his mind to help me strategize a plan to anchor my life appropriately so I could find more emotional stability. I fucked all his plans up of course because I am too chaotic internally to do such things... but his endless effort to seek practical applications to fix my problems so we could survive better endeared him to me greatly and I learned to appreciate him for who and what he is. A stand up guy.
Was it annoying that he wanted the coffee mugs handles all pointing a certain direction in the cupboard? Yeah, but he brought so much to our friendship that it was just something I decided to deal with, and while it seemed OCD at the time, it was actually a good idea and did cut down on me breaking glasses/mugs as much in the middle of the night.
And at my lowest points (and he saw them all) when I was so out of control, laying on the floor my hands in pools of blood from punching holes in the wall and hurting myself and smashing all of our furniture he did what he did best and it actually comforted me to a degree I never thought possible. He cleaned me and it up, got me to bed, called my brother over to help, fixed the furniture and made up his mind to help me strategize a plan to anchor my life appropriately so I could find more emotional stability. I fucked all his plans up of course because I am too chaotic internally to do such things... but his endless effort to seek practical applications to fix my problems so we could survive better endeared him to me greatly and I learned to appreciate him for who and what he is. A stand up guy.
Was it annoying that he wanted the coffee mugs handles all pointing a certain direction in the cupboard? Yeah, but he brought so much to our friendship that it was just something I decided to deal with, and while it seemed OCD at the time, it was actually a good idea and did cut down on me breaking glasses/mugs as much in the middle of the night.
I do not disagree with you on your general assessment. I can see that my ISTJ connection is the same way. Great rescuers for irresponsibles SPs. And thus, great rescuers for NFs... when I want it.
I'm not gonna obligate myself to be loyal the way they are loyal. I'm not gonna give into every g*damm household rule that they made up. If they want to rescue me when I need it, fine. If they don't, that doesn't mean I need to conform to their rules in order to gain their favor.
I'm not gonna obligate myself to be loyal the way they are loyal. I'm not gonna give into every g*damm household rule that they made up. If they want to rescue me when I need it, fine. If they don't, that doesn't mean I need to conform to their rules in order to gain their favor.
ISTJ's are the most difficult type for me to understand. Their cognitive function are the complete reverse and opposite of INFJ. I know 4 ISTJ's well and my relationship with each of them is different based on the roles that they play in my life and their individuality, but there are some similarities. When I was younger I felt that they were too different and hard for me to connect with, but now I feel that I have a comfortable peace with them
One of my close friends is an INFJ. I admire here for her :
-stoic personality (she is really strong and constantly pushing herself)
-her unshakeable integrity on the issues she's deemed important
-her humour ( She can be really funny and lighthearted)
-her adventerous and active spirit (very outdoorsy, does salsa dance, did gymnastics)
-her understandsting and organisation of the pyshical world (incredibly organised, understands or is willing to contemplate how all physical phenomena work, she is a geothermal engineer)
-attention to detail
-amazing memory (places, faces, names, events, math and science)
-very intelligent
-accepting (live and let live)
-loves quality and workmanship and takes care of things (everything about her and her house is immaculate)
-super efficient
-socialble (gets along with everyone I've introduced to her socialy. I almost feel that I could take her anywhere.
-takes a lot of pride in her work and presentation
Some of the things that are hard to deal with are:
-narrow minded
-moody
-sometimes whingy and very negative
-will only accept 'facts' from staus quo and authority figures
-bossy
-can be scathingly bitchy
-too clean (both in home and personality)
-offensive (some of her opinions are awful and cold)
-non-empathatic
-can be judgemental
Why she likes me:
-I listen to her and am genuinely interested in her
-I compliment her and appreciate her
-I justify her quirks
-I let her give me advice
-I listen to her opinions
-I dont judge her
-I openly disagree with her and explain my reasoning
-She thinks I'm mysterious and fun
-I let her be herself
-I dont break promises
-always optimistic
What she doesn't like:
-I'm less organised than her
-Im 'too intellectual' and boring sometimes
-I wont gossip about people with her
-I hate routines
-I'm airy fairy and not concrete
-I have unrealistically ideals about people and the world
-I dont respect facts and authority figures in the same way
-I'm not as wholesome as her and more experimental
-I miss a lot of details and dont seem to mind
Overall we have a great relationship. I trust her and love her. We trust eachother to care for our children. We enjoy eating and talking. She is very soft around me now, which I think is her fi emerging strongly. She tells me things that I dont think she has shared with others before. I thinks she finds ni fascinating and she has even started entertaining some of my insights. She is what I would call a great 'citizen', hardworking, loyal, dutiful, lawful, trustworthy, reliable, resourceful and efficient. Someone you can set your clock by.
I feel though that we cant connect on a fundemental level and we cant talk about things that I personally find important. Her bitchiness and moodiness is still hard to deal with. I couldnt live with her as sometimes her 'ways' can be draining for me. We live in two different worlds, she lives in the pyshical world, the 'real world' and I live in the world of ideas and possibilities and dreams. We have a lot to learn from each other, can work well together and can appreciate and admire eachother but the distance crossing the worlds is draining
One of my close friends is an INFJ. I admire here for her :
-stoic personality (she is really strong and constantly pushing herself)
-her unshakeable integrity on the issues she's deemed important
-her humour ( She can be really funny and lighthearted)
-her adventerous and active spirit (very outdoorsy, does salsa dance, did gymnastics)
-her understandsting and organisation of the pyshical world (incredibly organised, understands or is willing to contemplate how all physical phenomena work, she is a geothermal engineer)
-attention to detail
-amazing memory (places, faces, names, events, math and science)
-very intelligent
-accepting (live and let live)
-loves quality and workmanship and takes care of things (everything about her and her house is immaculate)
-super efficient
-socialble (gets along with everyone I've introduced to her socialy. I almost feel that I could take her anywhere.
-takes a lot of pride in her work and presentation
Some of the things that are hard to deal with are:
-narrow minded
-moody
-sometimes whingy and very negative
-will only accept 'facts' from staus quo and authority figures
-bossy
-can be scathingly bitchy
-too clean (both in home and personality)
-offensive (some of her opinions are awful and cold)
-non-empathatic
-can be judgemental
Why she likes me:
-I listen to her and am genuinely interested in her
-I compliment her and appreciate her
-I justify her quirks
-I let her give me advice
-I listen to her opinions
-I dont judge her
-I openly disagree with her and explain my reasoning
-She thinks I'm mysterious and fun
-I let her be herself
-I dont break promises
-always optimistic
What she doesn't like:
-I'm less organised than her
-Im 'too intellectual' and boring sometimes
-I wont gossip about people with her
-I hate routines
-I'm airy fairy and not concrete
-I have unrealistically ideals about people and the world
-I dont respect facts and authority figures in the same way
-I'm not as wholesome as her and more experimental
-I miss a lot of details and dont seem to mind
Overall we have a great relationship. I trust her and love her. We trust eachother to care for our children. We enjoy eating and talking. She is very soft around me now, which I think is her fi emerging strongly. She tells me things that I dont think she has shared with others before. I thinks she finds ni fascinating and she has even started entertaining some of my insights. She is what I would call a great 'citizen', hardworking, loyal, dutiful, lawful, trustworthy, reliable, resourceful and efficient. Someone you can set your clock by.
I feel though that we cant connect on a fundemental level and we cant talk about things that I personally find important. Her bitchiness and moodiness is still hard to deal with. I couldnt live with her as sometimes her 'ways' can be draining for me. We live in two different worlds, she lives in the pyshical world, the 'real world' and I live in the world of ideas and possibilities and dreams. We have a lot to learn from each other, can work well together and can appreciate and admire eachother but the distance crossing the worlds is draining
My mother is an ISTJ and I spent most of my young adulthood figuring out that underneath all her criticism is a wealth of love, a love that she expresses by providing practical help whenever it is needed.
My ex is also ISTJ. You can imagine my horror when during marital counseling I found out, and thought to myself, "OMG, I've married my mother."
For the ISTJ everything has a right way and all other ways are wrong. What do they want? They want us to do what we are supposed to be doing in the way we should be doing it, without being prompted, and without being affirmed for doing it. Just do it cuz it's right. Sometimes you can reason with an ISTJ over a long period of time if it's a subject they realize they don't know much about. But they tend to be completely unmovable on those things which they've studied. My mom will ALWAYS think Jesus turned water into grape juice. Anyhow, the easiest way to get along with them is to avoid problems in the first place by staying on the straight and narrow, and refusing to engage in subjects you know will become arguments (master saying hm--hmmm with the ever so gentle look of disinterest).
Household rules can be negotiated. You can agree that the trash is always out by sundown on Thursday if in exchange you don't get woken up if you sleep in. However, when they negotiate that way, it doesn't mean they will like it when you actually do it. Just accept that they will send you little sullen judgemental looks, even if they never say a word.
What they NEED from us is our playfulness. They need that Saturday morning when you usually clean the house and you say to them, "You know what? I know the house is messy. But it's such a beautiful day. How about we just be naughty today? We'll take the kids and go to the beach."
They also need our assistance when rules conflict with principle. They tend to be afraid to violate rules even when they know that in this situation the rule is harmful. That's when our encouragement comes in handy.
My ex is also ISTJ. You can imagine my horror when during marital counseling I found out, and thought to myself, "OMG, I've married my mother."
For the ISTJ everything has a right way and all other ways are wrong. What do they want? They want us to do what we are supposed to be doing in the way we should be doing it, without being prompted, and without being affirmed for doing it. Just do it cuz it's right. Sometimes you can reason with an ISTJ over a long period of time if it's a subject they realize they don't know much about. But they tend to be completely unmovable on those things which they've studied. My mom will ALWAYS think Jesus turned water into grape juice. Anyhow, the easiest way to get along with them is to avoid problems in the first place by staying on the straight and narrow, and refusing to engage in subjects you know will become arguments (master saying hm--hmmm with the ever so gentle look of disinterest).
Household rules can be negotiated. You can agree that the trash is always out by sundown on Thursday if in exchange you don't get woken up if you sleep in. However, when they negotiate that way, it doesn't mean they will like it when you actually do it. Just accept that they will send you little sullen judgemental looks, even if they never say a word.
What they NEED from us is our playfulness. They need that Saturday morning when you usually clean the house and you say to them, "You know what? I know the house is messy. But it's such a beautiful day. How about we just be naughty today? We'll take the kids and go to the beach."
They also need our assistance when rules conflict with principle. They tend to be afraid to violate rules even when they know that in this situation the rule is harmful. That's when our encouragement comes in handy.
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[MENTION=4576]GracieRuth[/MENTION]
I believe that when the ISTJ is taking advantage of his role as Supervisor, he is imposing his own subjective standard of organization, and it must not only be resisted but argued against and one should not back down --- no matter how "acceptable" it is. One compromise becomes a slippery slope into his giving in to his taking it out on the INFJ to compensate for his own sense of powerlessness elsewhere.
To accept a condition in silence without objecting is to accept a hierarchical structure. Therefore, to resist an ISTJ hierarchical implementation, one must challenge every point of his implicit demand for authority.
Discomfort due to Fe is inevitable but only for the short run. When the ISTJ power grab is consistently resisted, he WILL back down. It is in his blood to seek a stable hierarchy, but he will maintain and reinforce this hierachical structure through strong, pointed statements. It is better to behave above him in this pecking order at all times, even when one does not have the emotional energy to do so. That will create stability in his behavior --- but only until his next round of demands. He is incurably critical and authority seeking. He will never stop desiring the upper hand unless there are consistently louder people. Occasional loudness of logic is something he does not back down from except that he wins the argument, but consistent, confident, or emotional rejection is something that will throw him off.
The effect of this action is to consistently enforce an equalizing relation between the ISTJ and the INFJ, to produce the effect that the two are in two different private spaces rather than within one organization; for the ISTJ is incapable of viewing anyone within an organization, home, or social structure without clear hierarchical structures. If independent of each other and space is clearly defined (i.e., argued for), there will be clear boundary lines between who controls what.
I believe that when the ISTJ is taking advantage of his role as Supervisor, he is imposing his own subjective standard of organization, and it must not only be resisted but argued against and one should not back down --- no matter how "acceptable" it is. One compromise becomes a slippery slope into his giving in to his taking it out on the INFJ to compensate for his own sense of powerlessness elsewhere.
To accept a condition in silence without objecting is to accept a hierarchical structure. Therefore, to resist an ISTJ hierarchical implementation, one must challenge every point of his implicit demand for authority.
Discomfort due to Fe is inevitable but only for the short run. When the ISTJ power grab is consistently resisted, he WILL back down. It is in his blood to seek a stable hierarchy, but he will maintain and reinforce this hierachical structure through strong, pointed statements. It is better to behave above him in this pecking order at all times, even when one does not have the emotional energy to do so. That will create stability in his behavior --- but only until his next round of demands. He is incurably critical and authority seeking. He will never stop desiring the upper hand unless there are consistently louder people. Occasional loudness of logic is something he does not back down from except that he wins the argument, but consistent, confident, or emotional rejection is something that will throw him off.
The effect of this action is to consistently enforce an equalizing relation between the ISTJ and the INFJ, to produce the effect that the two are in two different private spaces rather than within one organization; for the ISTJ is incapable of viewing anyone within an organization, home, or social structure without clear hierarchical structures. If independent of each other and space is clearly defined (i.e., argued for), there will be clear boundary lines between who controls what.
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