The paralyzing grip of self created artificial scarcity

[dragulagu]

Lol.
Yes, and neurotransmitters.

Let me rephrase: How does the male mind work?
(If there even is such a thing. Every person is different.)

We can’t just love emotionally without any physical attraction.

I just don't I understand what you're trying to say here. He told me that he does not want physical intimacy but he does want emotional intimacy so I don't really understand what you're arguing here. Am I supposed to ignore his wishes?

I don’t know the guy or the situation, slant.

 

[slant]

Interesting. It reads to me as if she has unfulfilled needs.

In this case, a need for physical touch. You can get that from another person yes, but also from a bubblebath, a fluffy pillow and a massage chair.

If she could get her need met that way, she'd stop seeing other people as a resource, and would instead be free to see them and relate to them as they really are: persons.

I don't just want physical touch.

I want sexual intimacy, sexual touch with another person.
Which is a very basic want.

The whole resource thing is a metaphor which may people seem to be taking literally.

All I'm trying to say is, the reason I've been so hung up on this one person when they do not want to proceed and I should just move on and find someone else to have a relationship with is that my belief was I will not find another person; that this resource of a person who I am emotionally and sexually compatible with it's scarce and therefore if I find it, that's the only person who can give that to me therefore if they don't want that with me I will never be able to have it again.

Understanding I had this mindset is helping me break free of it. Recognizing what it was that I liked about the experience helps me to find it in the future again.

 

[slant]

We can’t just love emotionally without any physical attraction.



I don’t know the guy or the situation, slant.

What was the purpose of you comment then? It didn't add anything to the conversation; you just argued with me and tried to dehumanize me by calling me "dear" as if I'm inferior to you simply because I'm a stupid woman. Really pisses me off, actually. I don't think you would have called Deleted member 16771 "dear"

 

[Deleted member 16771]

What was the purpose of you comment then? It didn't add anything to the conversation; you just argued with me and tried to dehumanize me by calling me "dear" as if I'm inferior to you simply because I'm a stupid woman. Really pisses me off, actually. I don't think you would have called Deleted member 16771 "dear"

Don't worry, dear dragu has pulled that shit with me before, too, and if I recall I told him to go fuck himself

Which doesn't detract from the fact that dragulagu is a sensitive, intelligent, and generally awesome soul. I wouldn't take it too personally.

 

[slant]

Don't worry, dear dragu has pulled that shit with me before, too, and if I recall I told him to go fuck himself

Which doesn't detract from the fact that dragulagu is a sensitive, intelligent, and generally awesome soul. I wouldn't take it too personally.

Yeah, there I go again, getting sucked back into human drama and chaos.

The way of the world though

 

[java]

Lol.
Yes, and neurotransmitters.

Let me rephrase: How does the male mind work?
(If there even is such a thing. Every person is different.)

I think what he meant (@dragulagu feel free to correct) is that for most men, physical attraction is the first item on the "attraction" checklist, and that if it's not checked, it's hard to go further.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Yeah, there I go again, getting sucked back into human drama and chaos.

The way of the world though

You're a drama magnet, slanty, obviously.

Spoiler: Here it is

Oh it was 'go fuck yourself, muggle'.

I think you're right, Milk, my good friend.


I don't blame you for making this comment, dragu, because there might've been a chance that it could've resonated with me - kicked me out of a solipsistic stupor, perhaps. So that being considered I thank you for taking the time to show your concern, and as I've stated multiple times in many different places, I'm not sensitive to what people say to me - it's all perspectives to me, and I appreciate them all.

However, I do think what you say makes the error of ignoring the deliberateness of my experiences here. I'm making a choice to experience the profundities of life and being deliberately open to what the world and existence represents to my sensitive mind. If you cannot see that I'm trying to craft an approach to living which is simultaneously fulfilling and suitable for my own particular expression of consciousness, then you're being willfully blind. Moreover, this dismissal of my choice to explore my own life and place in the universe in this way I find to be an affront to my own personal sovereignty. It is, I hate to tell you, disrespectful; and while it's true that I'm not prone to feelings of offense (and I'm not offended in this case), equally I'm not shy to inform someone when they've crossed a line of respect.

I'm not an ISTP, and being told that I'm taking myself too seriously adds nothing of value. I'll ground myself when I must - that's for me to do - but equally when it's time to experience the numinous, I'll take that opportunity, too. If you think what I describe here is 'bs', then I have to tell you in simple terms to go fuck yourself, muggle, it might not be for you.

Now, again, I'm not offended and I'm happy to discuss things (and our 'relationship' certainly isn't compromised), but you need to be aware of when you've made the mistake of trampling on someone's deeply considered personal choices. You ought to have more respect to the personal sovereignty of choice to those around you to go labeling what they share 'bs'. I'm nobody's inferior, and I don't brook that kind of ignorance. See my choices and respect them.

 

[David54]

Don't worry, dear dragu has pulled that shit with me before, too, and if I recall I told him to go fuck himself

Which doesn't detract from the fact that dragulagu is a sensitive, intelligent, and generally awesome soul. I wouldn't take it too personally.

Wise as always. .

 

[slant]

I think what he meant (@dragulagu feel free to correct) is that for most men, physical attraction is the first item on the "attraction" checklist, and that if it's not checked, it's hard to go further.

But that's not what happened in this situation??? And he's trying to tell me that what happened isn't possible??

 

[dragulagu]

What was the purpose of you comment then? It didn't add anything to the conversation; you just argued with me and tried to dehumanize me by calling me "dear" as if I'm inferior to you simply because I'm a stupid woman. Really pisses me off, actually. I don't think you would have called Deleted member 16771 "dear"

Sorry slant, you are right. I can be an asshole. I did mean it well and the dear wasn't to dehumanize you. It's just my blunt method I sometimes have...it's...not great.
What I just wanted to say is that men in general will always have some physical attraction bound to their emotions, it's just the way our brains work.
And that it's difficult to see the full perspective here on your situation with that person, just don't be too hard on yourself.

Anyway, for now I'll just put myself background.

and if I recall I told him to go fuck himself

Yup, and if you feel like saying it, go for it, I don't mind

 

[slant]

Sorry slant, you are right. I can be an asshole. I did mean it well and the dear wasn't to dehumanize you. It's just my blunt method I sometimes have...it's...not great.
What I just wanted to say is that men in general will always have some physical attraction bound to their emotions, it's just the way our brains work.
And that it's difficult to see the full perspective here on your situation with that person, just don't be too hard on yourself.

Anyway, for now I'll just put myself background.


Yup, and if you feel like saying it, go for it, I don't mind

I appreciate this a lot and totally forgive you, no hard feelings. Admitting you may have communicated poorly or in general that you were wrong is one of the hardest and most vulnerable things people can do and I really admire the way you did this, it was straightforward and accountable.

I struggle with this myself so I just wanted to acknowledge it.

I understand what you're saying- and at times, I do believe he did feel attraction to me and decided not to act on it further due to fear. I guess for me, I try not to think about the motivations as to why because it tempts me to try to change the situation and if someone sets a boundary then it needs to be respected. I know for sure that the retraction of his affection was about *him* as a person and had nothing to do with me. It was not a rejection of who I am.

The main point of this thread was that I discovered why it had been difficult for me to move on from that situation .

And there's non romantic examples, too.

With acid I had been using it as a tool to get clarity of mind and grew increasingly frustrated when I realized I wasn't achieving that the same way I did when I used it the first time. Understanding what I was seeking through acid has allowed me to stop relying upon it and to seek other practices which trigger the same clarity of mind. Now when I trip I can enjoy it because I am not putting this huge need on it, I know I can find clarity of mind even if I do not find it there. Its not a scarce resource.

 

[John K]

Background information:

For the past year since I've been here you've all seen my struggle on my blog with these preoccupations with people. In particular these past three months have been brutal after I cuddled with a co-worker and then our relationship was downgraded back to casual friendship. I would be fine with it then be hit with how upsetting it all was and longing for closeness again with this co-worker. This has been a thread of my life in general.

A lot of the journaling and self triad worksheets I've been doing is essentially cognitive behavioral therapy. I am a firm believer in the power of neuroplasticity and how malleable our minds actually are. In CBT there is the concept of pathological beliefs, which is beliefs we subconsciously hold that are false and prevent us from progressing in certain aspects of our life.

I've confronted a few of my own through this process, and awareness is really the most important part of it, once you are aware of your own pathological beliefs changing them is a matter of deciding to do so. If youre unaware of these beliefs you can't change them. I think this is why therapy is effective for people because it can help people see what they otherwise wouldn't with an outsiders perspective.

However, for those of us who are introspective, if we are open and invest enough time we can usually uncover these things ourselves which is what I've been doing.

Here is the latest pathological belief I've discovered:

The pathological belief that some resources are scarce. I combine this too with the pathological belief that another person must love me for me to have value and BOOM you've got the perfect recipe for what I've been going through.

Scarcity will create intensity. So if you perceive a resource as being scarce, when you obtain it that will increase the level of importance of it in your life. But not all of what we perceive to be scarce really is, and the mind becomes a machine which feeds itself whatever we believe (confirmation bias). To break free of this paralyzing grip, we must prove to ourselves that the resource in question is not scarce. The first step of this task is to be open to the idea that your belief is scarcity could be wrong.

Almost always if your mind ruminates on a single event which you enjoyed, it is a sign to you that you desire MORE of this resource.

We want to recreate that moment we remember, but that is impossible. Ultimately you must figure out:

Why does this moment stand out to me?

What resource did I obtain in this moment that I perceive as scarce?

There lies your answer.


You will never recapture your past, but you can identify what made the past enjoyable and chase that. Not the person, not the circumstance, but THE RESOURCE you obtained. Intimacy, for example. Clarity of mind. These things I have chased by trying to recreate a moment, only accepting the resource in the same form I first discovered it, implying it is scarce when really I can find it many ways if I am open to the possibility.

Reading through the thread Slant, I'm a little uncertain about what you want from it, so I'm a little uncertain in how to contribute if at all. I don't mean that in any judgemental way, except that I'm not sure if you want affirmation, advice, or just a place to externalise your thoughts as you work them through.

It seems to me that you are exploring a very important aspect of Mindfulness here - letting go. Not just letting go any old how, but working through what really matters that you need to hold onto, and what is just contingent and can - should - be let go of. You have clung on too tightly to the latter, confused it with the former and this has damaged your ability to find an essential part of your your fulfilment in life. You give the example of the relationship with your friend where you have been in danger of clinging onto what can never be in fear that nothing else better can easily be found - you are saying that this situation isn't a one-off but a script that you have been following repeatedly and you want to now bring that script out into the open and trash it.

This all sounds like a very good insight - I hope you can work it through well. The only comment I'd add here is to note that you are looking for an intimate romantic relationship, not just a sexual one, and not just a close friendship. I wish you well with this too and hope you can find someone to share your life with at every level. I think that the sort of thinking you are exploring can give you the right combination of head and heart to be successful in this - the gods and the chances of life willing.

 

[slant]

Reading through the thread Slant, I'm a little uncertain about what you want from it, so I'm a little uncertain in how to contribute if at all. I don't mean that in any judgemental way, except that I'm not sure if you want affirmation, advice, or just a place to externalise your thoughts as you work them through.

It seems to me that you are exploring a very important aspect of Mindfulness here - letting go. Not just letting go any old how, but working through what really matters that you need to hold onto, and what is just contingent and can - should - be let go of. You have clung on too tightly to the latter, confused it with the former and this has damaged your ability to find an essential part of your your fulfilment in life. You give the example of the relationship with your friend where you have been in danger of clinging onto what can never be in fear that nothing else better can easily be found - you are saying that this situation isn't a one-off but a script that you have been following repeatedly and you want to now bring that script out into the open and trash it.

This all sounds like a very good insight - I hope you can work it through well. The only comment I'd add here is to note that you are looking for an intimate romantic relationship, not just a sexual one, and not just a close friendship. I wish you well with this too and hope you can find someone to share your life with at every level. I think that the sort of thinking you are exploring can give you the right combination of head and heart to be successful in this - the gods and the chances of life willing.

I was excited about my insight and wanted to share it. This is a good summary of my realization as well.

 

[John K]

I was excited about my insight and wanted to share it. This is a good summary of my realization as well.

It's well worth sharing . I think many of us find ourselves clinging on to these sort of subterranean beliefs and then repeating life scripts based on them that lead nowhere.

 

[Wyote]

 

[Ren]

But that's not what happened in this situation??? And he's trying to tell me that what happened isn't possible??

It may be *somewhat* unusual, but it can definitely happen. What happened is of course possible.

I don't think you're interpreting it the way I meant. In this context, this person rejected me and doesn't want to have physical intimacy with me. They will have emotional intimacy but not physical intimacy. I have spent the past three months agonizing about that, fixated on this one person who has already communicated their lack of desire for these things.

You're courageous for opening up in that way. Since the event of the rejection and especially since you assimilated that insight, have you find yourself thinking about it gradually less and less, even though the progression is slow?

 

[slant]

It may be *somewhat* unusual, but it can definitely happen. What happened is of course possible.



You're courageous for opening up in that way. Since the event of the rejection and especially since you assimilated that insight, have you find yourself thinking about it gradually less and less, even though the progression is slow?

Yes and no.

When the event first happened, I thought of it 24/7 for about a month. Then I was fine for a good couple of weeks.

The reason it keeps resurfacing is partly hormonal. Through my diary I've discovered a pattern: every time my cycle starts is when the thoughts return. I just get very emotional and moody and fixate on it.

Right now I feel great and am not thinking about it or him beyond the context of working together, my realization, etc. We'll have to see next month how I do during my hormonal week.

 

[Ren]

Yes and no.

When the event first happened, I thought of it 24/7 for about a month. Then I was fine for a good couple of weeks.

The reason it keeps resurfacing is partly hormonal. Through my diary I've discovered a pattern: every time my cycle starts is when the thoughts return. I just get very emotional and moody and fixate on it.

Right now I feel great and am not thinking about it or him beyond the context of working together, my realization, etc. We'll have to see next month how I do during my hormonal week.

I see. It seems to me (from an external point of view) that there is definitely progress, and clarity especially.

You know, three months is not such a long time for getting over someone. It will take another little while. But if you can say you have fewer intrusive/obsessive thoughts than before then that's a really good sign.

 

[Pin]

For the record...

When I talk about slapping ass with dollar bills, that means within the context of a loving marriage.

Slapping my wife's ass.

Spoiler

 

[Ren]

For the record...

When I talk about slapping ass with dollar bills, that means within the context of a loving marriage.

Slapping my wife's ass.

Spoiler

With dollar bills?