The Great Christian Argument

Having attended a fundamentalist/pentecostal bible school, an evangelical college, a catholic college, and briefly, seminary, and having spent over 20 years in various churches, I have a lot to say about this - perhaps too much for this forum.

I am no longer a Christian. A lot of my frustration with Christianity comes from the germ of this thread - loving the sinner and hating the sin. In my opinion, this is humanly impossible. I've heard lots of pastors and congregants use this phrase, but I've never seen it acted out in a loving way - not in any church I belonged to - and my church experiences range from sacramental to evangelical to charismatic/pentecostal.

The way I understand the gospels, the ire of Jesus was aimed at religious people. He rebuked his own apostles for being sectarian, as in the case censuring those who followed John the Baptist. He also chastized his apostles for telling children to stop bothering him. He said, "Forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Unless you come to me as a child...." Are children perfect? I've got two of them so I can speak from experience. I will say that children tend to be blind to people's faults and differences. For example, I have a number of gay friends, and my kids have never been judgmental toward them. We have friends from all over the world, and my children never expressed any predjudice toward them. Judgmentalism and prejudice are things that are learned, and way too much of this kind of thing is encouraged in the church.

When I first became a Christian, I did so because I felt God's complete love and acceptance of me the way I am, but this was not my church experience at all. Most of what I have seen in the church is a distortion of the gospel and New Covenant theology in general. Even Paul - whose writings make up most of the epistles, flip-flopped back and forth between Judaic law and the freedom that supposedly comes with having a Christian experience. Paul even had Timothy circumcised to please religious leaders.

As a former blblical scholar, I have to agree with critics who say that the Bible is inconsistent with itself, that is, unless one is able to accept the possibility that theological errors exist in scripture.
 
Are children perfect? I've got two of them so I can speak from experience. I will say that children tend to be blind to people's faults and differences.

That is such a beautiful thought. I would give anything to see through the eyes of a child and live life without judging others as I have been taught to do by the forces of society and culture. So much of our time and energy is wasted on arbitrary judgments when all that really matters is how we treat each other. For that reason children have a way of making me feel foolish and unrealistic.
 
here are my two cents :

Here in France, where the church has no power whatsoever (this is important), fundamentalist christians just don't exist. There might be one here and there but people here are christians by choice, because it is not something that fits into modern society. Fundamentalism here belongs to the past centuries.

From the moment religion comes from a personal research, from faith, I think people are more likely to be tolerant, because their religion is not based on brainwashing but on a faith which exists in each of us, and that each religion turns into something slightly different.
 
here are my two cents :

Here in France, where the church has no power whatsoever (this is important), fundamentalist christians just don't exist. There might be one here and there but people here are christians by choice, because it is not something that fits into modern society. Fundamentalism here belongs to the past centuries.

From the moment religion comes from a personal research, from faith, I think people are more likely to be tolerant, because their religion is not based on brainwashing but on a faith which exists in each of us, and that each religion turns into something slightly different.

When you said that there are no fundamentalist Christians in your country I had the same feeling I had when the president of Iran claimed there are no gays in his country. They must all be in hiding. :peep:

Sadly, your assessment is fairly accurate. Only around 40% of people in America believe in evolution because of our religious fundamentalism and twisted politics. Since the baby boomer generation took the reigns, our country has always been split about 1/3 liberal and 2/3 Conservative.
 
baby boomers will be dead soon :)

No, they will all be old and retired soon. The first baby boomer began collecting social security in 2007. Old an retired people vote in large numbers, which means they will control this country for at least another 40 years.
 
Last edited:
When you said that there are no fundamentalist Christians in your country I had the same feeling I had when the president of Iran claimed there are no gays in his country. They must all be in hiding. :peep:

haha, sorry my statement was a bit extreme, but you get the idea.
 
baby boomers will be dead soon :)

Yes, we will all be dead soon, hopefully.

How does this relate to Christianity? Well, back in the day - you know, just after the dinosaurs - there was a large group of young Christians known as "Jesus Freaks." (I used to be high on drugs. Now I'm high on the Lord). If you were a Jesus Freak it meant you'd found a church that didn't care if you kept your hair long. Next thing you know, there was "Christian Rock" music, which majorly sucked. So there were all these trappings to keep us counter-culture comfy, while those in charge were finding new biblical precedents for staying in charge. It was during this time that the Discipleship Movement was taking place - a kind of Christian authoritarian hierarchy based on the teachings of Watchman Nee and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

I knew a lot of NFs in the church - it's where I first took the KTS, so we were self-aware intuitives, but weren't sure what it meant. We did know that there were stark differences between ourselves, and the people in charge. When we talked the pastor into taking the KTS, he promptly scored SJ, and then promptly dismissed the sorter as a parlor game - something to distract us from reading the bible more. That particular church ended in a split, caused by our group of NFs - and we weren't doing anything except asking questions.

I think a lot of NFs of my generation were attracted to Christianity - originally from deep personal experience. I believe some of us were happy being NF in an environment in which church authority reigned in some of our NF exploratory behavior - it may have made us feel more safe from ourselves. We had reason to want to feel safe from ourselves back then, because so many of us had barely made it alive out of drug culture, myself included.

Next thing you know, we're hearing conservative politics from the pulpit.

After being battered by charismatic/evangelicals, I started visiting a church that was known for helping Christians who had been treated badly in other churches. I have to say, it was the church experience of my lifetime. I experienced what I thought to be the love of God - I felt it so strongly, and so joyfully, during worship it was like a flood. I experienced countless visions and dreams and manifestations of "gifts of the spirit." When I started getting to know people there, I was surprised at the number of aware NFs - I'd never seen so many of them in one place at one time. Funny - the pastor of that church left to start a new one. He was replaced by a guy whose main focus was to get us out of the high school gym and into our own building. When I left that church, the collection was for the new parking lot. The Spirit, or whatever had been there, had fled. And yeah, this is all baby boomer stuff.

My own kids' generation - I call it the Random Generation. They're best known for misusing the word, "random," as in, "Dude, that was so random."
 
Last edited:
warning: this is long! please read if you're interested.

this is just an account of what i believe. this is not to offend anyone, or try to manipulate anybody, but i thought i'd share :)

the first thing i'd like to share here is an interesting take on sin:

What is sin?
Sin is failure - "Missing God's Mark"

The Bible understands sin fundamentally as failure.

Sin is a failure of the human heart.

The biblical word "sin" means primarily "missing the mark" or "falling short." It refers to our inability to be what God desires us to be. It speaks of our failure to fulfill God's intention for us.

Sin infects the core of our being, the nucleus of our existence or, to use the biblical word, the "heart". And as a result, our attitudes and actions are polluted. Our minds are actually hostile to God.

So pervasive is sin's sway that the Bible speaks of us as slaves to it.

Our first reaction upon hearing this may be to protest. "Nonsense!" we object. "This makes us out to be despicable and wicked. Talk of sin pervading our hearts fails to note how often people do good deeds."

The biblical authors do not deny that we occasionally do what appears right. On the contrary, they hold out the prospect that we can indeed engage in good acts. Yet the claim that we are able to do good must be tempered. Repeatedly we discover that beneath our seemingly good acts are at best mixed, and sometimes selfish motives.

How often do we find mixed motives at work in even our best conduct? Even our apparently good acts regularly arise out of a self-righteous attitude or self-serving motivation. So easily we grow smug about how much more "self-sacrifical" and "giving" we are than most "other people" we know. And how often do we carefully measure the kindness we show toward others according to the personal profit we hope to gain?

In these and many other ways, we show how deeply ingrained sin is in our hearts. We fail - we fall short of God's standard.

Sin is a failure of community.

We were created in the image of God, the imago dei - not biologically, but in being relational beings - emotional, psychological beings who need and love each other. "Sin" therefore, is the failure to reflect the image of God.

God is the community of the different facets of Father, Son, and Spirit. If this is the image of God, then we are created to be like it - a community. Because we are created for community, sin is a failure of "community".

We see this failure of community in rebellion against God, our quarreling with each other, and our misuse of nature and creation. But it is equally present in what we don't do.

Again, we may respond with a protest: "Isn't this all merely outdated theological talk? Isn't the idea of sin passe in the contemporary world? And have we not simply evolved beyond the consciousness of sin?"

We know sin only through the Gospel

Indeed, we live in a society that avoids the label "sin." We don't like to think of ourselves as sinners. Oh, we willingly acknowledge our shortcomings. But we don't attach blame to them. We excuse our foibles and even our despicable deeds as the product of some illness, or view ourselves as victims.

The contemporary denial of sin ought not to surprise. Ultimately, a true sense of sin comes only as we hear the gospel. We cannot see the radical depth of our human failure until we come to see the depth to which God suffered on our behalf.

Our sin - our breach of community - is so serious that it could only be overcome through the sacrifice of Jesus.

"Sin" denotes the tragic human failure which cost Jesus his life. But how did we get caught up in this?

Sin has been with us "from the beginning"

If "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", are we created sinful? No - sin was not "the beginning" itself. Rather, sin entered the world through a willful human act - the "fall" of Adam and Eve. Through their act, the first humans introduced enmity into a creation that had only known harmony.

Why do the effects of Adam's sin extend to all his descendants? And above all, how is it that I am a sinner?

  • Federal headship > Adam is our representative > Adam chose for us.
At first glance, the idea of federal headship appears to violate our individualistic sensibilities. Are we not responsible solely for ourselves? Is not my sin mine alone?

Yet at many levels of contemporary life we actually see this principle at work. One obvious area of human government. The President and the Congress are the designated representatives of the people in the United States. Their decisions have grave implications for each citizen and future generation of America.

Perhaps in a similar fashion God designated Adam to act on behalf of all his descendants.


  • Natural headship > Adam is our progenitor > We chose in Adam
This status suggests we were all present in him when he sinned.

"Nonsense! All this happened centuries before I was conceived. How then can anyone assert that I was present in Adam?"

There is a biblical answer to our objection: you were indeed in the Garden of Eden. Specifically, you were in Adam's "loins" (their words!) when he chose to sin. You were there in the same way Levi was in the loins of Abraham when he paid the tithe to Melchizedek (Heb 7:4-10). Hence, one must consider and understand the context in which the scriptures were written. It is no use taking things out of context - doing so, one can justify even murder, from the bible! And in context, the biblical authors did not live in our Western, individualist society. They possessed a profound sense of the unity and solidarity of humankind, something we may lack today.


  • Non-headship > Each of us is Adam > Each chooses Adam
We are Adam. But perhaps the Book of Genesis is not reporting only the story of one man in prehistory. Suppose the "Fall" is not just an event in the primordial past but a tragedy that we all experience in the present. What if the Genesis story is a description of what happens when we make our own sinful choice?

Adam's disobedience decimated the pristine experience of community with God, humans, and nature. But we too are guilty of destroying the semblances of community here and there that emerge among us. Nations break the peace through war. Families quarrel and feud. Marital bliss becomes the casualty of abuse. And the list continues. As we find ourselves guilty of undermining community, we gain a glimpse of the awfulness of the primordial human sin.
Our sin is not merely the result of what we ourselves do. Rather, it comes to us through our participation in humankind. Adam as our "natural head" altered the human nature. As a result, we inherit what theologians often call a "depraved nature".

The depraved nature comes to us in the same way as do the other basic human characteristics we all share. In a sense, sin is now a part of our common human makeup.

The humanity and world that we are born into, engage, and live in, is corrupted and already had sin in it before we existed. This was beyond our individual control. As a result, we sin because we are sinned against. Because we are sinned against, we learn to sin, and continue to sin, to "miss the mark" of God's desire for community.
when i first read this (and this is the simplified version, i had to read a whole chapter on it!) i admit i was daunted. but the way i understood it may help explain (and simplify) "the great christian argument".

i sat down and really started to think about christians claiming that everyone was a sinner. a lot of the time, we say it with a holier-than-thou attitude, so it comes off as if we believe that everyone else is a sinner. and if we base sin on actions alone, then i can see where this self-righteousness can come from. if we base it on actions, then essentially one can 'work' their way out of sinfulness by adhering to set of moral laws and ethics.

but sin is more than just actions that we willingly commit.

sin was a present force before we even existed. i think it is necessary to take this with a degree of humility. we were not alive for thousands of years, and we do not know everything. there were things that happened beyond our control.

i then thought about what sin really was, if it wasn't only a willingly committed action. the passage is right - thinking about sin did start ruffling my individualistic sensibilities. we seek to develop our own system of right and wrong. we seek to be our own judges and dislike being accountable to a 'higher authority'. we seek to live the way we please. we do not want to be accountable to others, nor do we take responsibility for anything we don't want to be responsible for. we live with our own judgment of what is right and what is wrong. we do what we deem is right. even hitler did what he thought was right.

but if the bible is true, if there is truly someone, a God who we will be accountable to in the end, then something has gone terribly wrong. if this is so, and this applies to everyone, then we are sinning against the poverty stricken who live in parts of the world we have never been to - by doing nothing. we are sinning against the child who has been kidnapped and is being trafficked in the sex industry - perhaps we unknowingly buy a product whose profits fund it. we are sinning against the slave workers by buying their products - or not buying their products - we just don't know. the concept of sin hits hard with the concept of universal responsibility for community - our fellow human beings. and the thing is, we don't know and may not be aware when it is we do sin.

in this way, we are all equally sinful.

that christian who preaches on a pulpit is no less guilty of sin than the ten dollar whore. the difference is that christians believe jesus christ gives the ability to not sin. not through our own righteousness, but through mercy. this is not to say that we believe we no longer sin, but that his sacrifice provided needed forgiveness.

but it really did humble me. you may not know how your actions ripple and affect others. sin is everywhere. it's inescapable. and this makes us all equal, none better or more "good" than the other, all needing forgiveness.
 
but it really did humble me. you may not know how your actions ripple and affect others. sin is everywhere. it's inescapable. and this makes us all equal, none better or more "good" than the other, all needing forgiveness.

The key lies in repentance. "Go and sin no more." That is where the conflict ultimately arises. Those sinners who see other sinners sinning, tell them they must sin no more or they will go to hell. And then the sinners who were allegedly sinning tell the sinners who argued that they were sinning that are being proud and arrogant and therefore sinning by judging them for sinning. But neither group will repent, neither those sinners who were allegedly sinning, nor those sinners who were judging their fellow sinners.

All are willing to judge, none are willing to forgive.
 
Last edited:
This topic is one of the reasons INFJs are people after Gods own heart. We love integrity, truth and justice but that is offset by our tenderness, compassion and mercy. I have no problem comprehending and enacting the "hate the sin, and love the sinner." nor do I find any apparent paradox. In Jesus own words "....go and sin no more" he judged what had been done as sin but chose to have mercy and compassion.
 
This topic is one of the reasons INFJs are people after Gods own heart. We love integrity, truth and justice but that is offset by our tenderness, compassion and mercy. I have no problem comprehending and enacting the "hate the sin, and love the sinner." nor do I find any apparent paradox. In Jesus own words "....go and sin no more" he judged what had been done as sin but chose to have mercy and compassion.

The paradox is that humans sin when they go forth and judge others for sinning. If you are to sin no more, but you are obligated to ask others to repent for their sins, then you are stuck in a cycle where you sin if you go out and ask others to repent and you sin if you sit on your heels and do nothing. Basically, Jesus has made it where your mere existence is sinning no matter what you do.
 
The key lies in repentance. "Go and sin no more." That is where the conflict ultimately arises. Those
sinners who see other sinners sinning, tell them they must sin no more or they will go to hell. And then the sinners who were allegedly sinning tell the sinners who argued that they were sinning that are being proud and arrogant and therefore sinning by judging them for sinning. But neither group will repent, neither those sinners who were allegedly sinning, nor those sinners who were judging their fellow sinners.


exactly! the sin is inescapable, it's a vicious cycle. :(

All are willing to judge, none are willing to forgive.

according to the theology presented, i think that's why we need God's forgiveness, because we are not willing or truly, purely capable.

This topic is one of the reasons INFJs are people after Gods own heart. We love integrity, truth and justice but that is offset by our tenderness, compassion and mercy.

i like this, i never thought of INFJs in that light before!
 
The paradox is that humans sin when they go forth and judge others for sinning. If you are to sin no more, but you are obligated to ask others to repent for their sins, then you are stuck in a cycle where you sin if you go out and ask others to repent and you sin if you sit on your heels and do nothing. Basically, Jesus has made it where your mere existence is sinning no matter what you do.

In other parts we are told, we are the salt of the earth and others we will judge. It is not the judging that is sin. Jesus comments on "judge not" where aimed at the measure of justice as he said, as you judge you will be judged. If you are harsh you will be treated harshly. the sin is not judging but having lack of compassion and mercy.
 
Other thought on this topic. We can take it back right to the start in the garden of Edan because to judge is have knowledge between right and wrong good and evil. Adam was forbidden to eat of the tree. This didn't mean the tree was bad just that he wasn't to partake of the fruit (or result) The result of judging is condemnation this is what we are forbidden to partake off. That is why the scripture says "there is now no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"
 
Last edited:
In other parts we are told, we are the salt of the earth and others we will judge. It is not the judging that is sin. Jesus comments on "judge not" where aimed at the measure of justice as he said, as you judge you will be judged. If you are harsh you will be treated harshly. the sin is not judging but having lack of compassion and mercy.

I am not claiming it is the judging in and of itself that is the sin, but merely that one cannot love others as one does oneself and judge at the same time. This is evident because those who perceive others as sinning, demand that they repent even when it is cruel to do so. And it was Jesus's commandment that we must love others as ourselves. The argument is that there are those who do claim you can love others as much as you love yourself and judge them at the same time.

However, they constantly prove this not to be true though their actions. For example, if you loved someone as much as yourself, would you deny them the right to marry the person they love simply because who they love is of the same sex (which is arguably a sin)? These contradictions of love and judgment are the core of the Great Christian argument.

But on another note, it is interesting how you point out how contradictory the Bible is to itself.

And as a question, where in the Bible does it say that Christians have the right to ask others to repent or to pass laws to force others to comply?
 
Last edited:
This is evident because those who perceive others as sinning, demand that they repent even when it is cruel to do so.

There is a big difference between demanding and asking someone to repent. One is in love because you want the best for that person the other is condemnation. A lot of it has to do with motivation and that is what God judges. It is wrong to condemn but it would also be wrong not to point out error lead to repentance.

But on another note, it is interesting how you point out how contradictory the Bible is to itself.

Not contradictory! When taken in isolation leads to extremism and over emphasis and misinterpretation. Balance is the word! Big picture another! The two statements are in harmony when you see that we are to be the light of the world not the judge of the world.

And as a question, where in the Bible does it say that Christians have the right to ask others to repent or to pass laws to force others to comply?

Ahh the great commission. and about laws making they are the realm of human government and society. My own view is we are over governed. One thing have noticed is what one generation accepts the next takes for granted. there is a downward spiral especially in the area of morality. Those that are trying to pass laws in those areas care for society and are making an effort to arrest the degeneration. If it is not kept in check the day will come when even pedophilia is acceptable. (extreme example but you get the idea)
 
Last edited:
There is a big difference between demanding and asking someone to repent. One is in love because you want the best for that person the other is condemnation. A lot of it has to do with motivation and that is what God judges. It is wrong to condemn but it would also be wrong not to point out error lead to repentance.

Pointing out error (judging) is not the same as asking people to change (repentance). If you wish to say, "I believe that is sin and you shouldn't do that," then that is perfectly fine. Where it goes wrong is when you say, "I believe that is sin and I will do everything I can to make you change."


Not contradictory! When taken in isolation leads to extremism and over emphasis and misinterpretation. Balance is the word! Big picture another! The two statements are in harmony when you see that we are to be the light of the world not the judge of the world.
Um...that just sounds like intuitive rabble. Why don't you just say, "I personally know what it is suppose to mean."

Ahh the great commission. and about laws making they are the realm of human government and society. My own view is we are over governed. One thing have noticed is what one generation accepts the next takes for granted. there is a downward spiral especially in the area of morality. Those that are trying to pass laws in those areas care for society and are making an effort to arrest the degeneration. If it is not kept in check the day will come when even pedophilia is acceptable. (extreme example but you get the idea)
Oh, the classic slippery fallacy. Yes, I can see exactly how we have been on this downward slope. First we did away with slavery. Very immoral! And then we allowed women to teach and hold positions of authority over males! Wickedly immoral! But Christians have certainly done their part to cease the downards slope! Now we send 17 year-olds to jail for 15 years when they have consensual sex with 15 year-olds. Very moral! And we require abstinence only education in schools when it is statistically proven not to work and to even lead to higher incidence of teen pregnancy! Incredibly moral! I wonder where our over governing laws come from. Hmmmmm.

How on God's green earth can you say that passing laws which allow consenting same sex couples marry will lead to pedophilia? That is ludicrous and incredibly insulting. Just because your sense of morality doesn't allow for it doesn't mean that it isn't perfectly moral and acceptable for same sex couples to marry and have the same rights as everyone else. How dare you suggest that people who support same sex marriage are bringing forth the degeneration of the moral fabric of society! You sit here saying, "It is wrong to condemn" and that is precisely what you are doing. Your words say one thing but you actions say the exact opposite.

[SARCASM]This is why I generally detest Christianity. I don't detest Christians. I only detest the religion they choose to practice. I think practicing Christianity is wrong. And by a Christian's logic, that means I can love Christians while just hating and refusing to accept what they do. That is how I'm going to show them I love them, by refusing to accept what they believe while telling them I forgive them for being imperfect. What a good person I am! [/SARCASM]
 
Last edited:
Back
Top