The videos speak for themselves. The blockade is to try and stop missile attacks on Israeli men, women, and children from Hamas in Gaza. Anyone that thinks the Israelis are trying to starve someone is missing something somewhere.
Son of Son of Hamas
- Thread starter muir
- Start date
The videos speak for themselves. The blockade is to try and stop missile attacks on Israeli men, women, and children from Hamas in Gaza. Anyone that thinks the Israelis are trying to starve someone is missing something somewhere.
The tit for tat strikes from both sides is a form of dialogue
The settlement building in the west bank, the blockade of the gaza strip, the rocket attacks....it is all about pressure and counter pressure
Both sides are trying to create the strongest possible platform to negotiate from
Just look at examples of armed struggle around the world.....the persecution gets so bad that people are left with no other choice but to take up arms. They must then try to gain publicity for their cause and prove that they are durable and effective enough that their opponent must eventually compromise.....its always the same pattern
What is making things so difficult in Palestine is that the hard line zionists do not want to compromise, they want to drive Palestineans out and create a solely Jewish state.
Also Israel is funded by the US to the tune of $3 billion per year because the US sees Israel as a useful political ally. It is because of close support from the US particularly during the Bush regime that Israel has felt like it can behave as aggressively as it has
The US need to cut the funding and start reigning in the Israelis a bit if there is to be any negotiation
The settlement building in the west bank, the blockade of the gaza strip, the rocket attacks....it is all about pressure and counter pressure
Both sides are trying to create the strongest possible platform to negotiate from
Just look at examples of armed struggle around the world.....the persecution gets so bad that people are left with no other choice but to take up arms. They must then try to gain publicity for their cause and prove that they are durable and effective enough that their opponent must eventually compromise.....its always the same pattern
What is making things so difficult in Palestine is that the hard line zionists do not want to compromise, they want to drive Palestineans out and create a solely Jewish state.
Also Israel is funded by the US to the tune of $3 billion per year because the US sees Israel as a useful political ally. It is because of close support from the US particularly during the Bush regime that Israel has felt like it can behave as aggressively as it has
The US need to cut the funding and start reigning in the Israelis a bit if there is to be any negotiation
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Tell your Palestinians to stop and Israel will stop. Now, that will not stop the hundreds of SCUD missiles aimed at Israeli civilian targets from Syria. That will not stop the hundreds of missiles aimed at civilian targets from Lebanon by Hezbollah. That will not stop the threats from Iran to destroy Israel.
Turkey provoked this and is doing it again. They are playing with fire. France and Germany do not want Muslims rioting and burning cars again in the streets. Thaksin and Putin have their problems with them, too. It all will come back and bite them in the butt before all is said and done.
Words cannot end this insanity.
Turkey provoked this and is doing it again. They are playing with fire. France and Germany do not want Muslims rioting and burning cars again in the streets. Thaksin and Putin have their problems with them, too. It all will come back and bite them in the butt before all is said and done.
Words cannot end this insanity.
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Shai Gar
Turkey "provoked" this? Don't be stupid.
Turkey was Israels strongest ally in the middle east, and a strong moderate.
This however has ensured that Europe and the European Union will not treat well with israel anymore.
Do you know anything at all about the conflict? Or do you just get your news from Fox and CNN... Israel, not Palestine is the one constantly yelled at in the UN.
Israel launches constant attacks on Palestine and yet you think its Palestines fault for wanting to protect themselves and stop the illegal settlements, such as the growth into East Jeresalem. Against international treaties. The last time the Israeli PM visited Obama he got dressed down for his extremist actions. This time, he cancelled his Washington trip only a few days before he was supposed to arrive in the U.S.A. presumably so he wouldn't be yelled at again for his actions.
And you think it's Palestines fault?
Hamas is not a Terrorist Organisation, unless your goveenment is too. They provide a defence force, an education system and a health care system. They best they're able to while living in captive squalor.
Turkey was Israels strongest ally in the middle east, and a strong moderate.
This however has ensured that Europe and the European Union will not treat well with israel anymore.
Do you know anything at all about the conflict? Or do you just get your news from Fox and CNN... Israel, not Palestine is the one constantly yelled at in the UN.
Israel launches constant attacks on Palestine and yet you think its Palestines fault for wanting to protect themselves and stop the illegal settlements, such as the growth into East Jeresalem. Against international treaties. The last time the Israeli PM visited Obama he got dressed down for his extremist actions. This time, he cancelled his Washington trip only a few days before he was supposed to arrive in the U.S.A. presumably so he wouldn't be yelled at again for his actions.
And you think it's Palestines fault?
Hamas is not a Terrorist Organisation, unless your goveenment is too. They provide a defence force, an education system and a health care system. They best they're able to while living in captive squalor.
So there's some scuds pointed at Israel
You do know that Israel and the US have nuclear weapons pointed at....well pretty much everyone?
There is so much fear being generated from the political right who are hoarding much of the wealth in the US. Right wing politics allows them to hold onto all the wealth and power.
But they are terrified that one day americans will wake up and say 'hold on a minute look at the state of our country....we're supposed to be a rich country...where's the wealth....why are we all working so much.....why is our healthcare and education so bad...why is there so much crime....why are we in so much debt...why are we at war...we're being cheated here!'
But with all their wealth, they own the media corporations so they can say whatever they like. They found that in the cold war it helped to create a climate of fear to control their population by demonising communism. That apparatus is still in place and so is all the fear.....except now its not communism....now the devil is islam!
Their answer is always the same: more fear, more hate, more prejudice, more aggression, more war.....do you really think thats going to work?
You do know that Israel and the US have nuclear weapons pointed at....well pretty much everyone?
There is so much fear being generated from the political right who are hoarding much of the wealth in the US. Right wing politics allows them to hold onto all the wealth and power.
But they are terrified that one day americans will wake up and say 'hold on a minute look at the state of our country....we're supposed to be a rich country...where's the wealth....why are we all working so much.....why is our healthcare and education so bad...why is there so much crime....why are we in so much debt...why are we at war...we're being cheated here!'
But with all their wealth, they own the media corporations so they can say whatever they like. They found that in the cold war it helped to create a climate of fear to control their population by demonising communism. That apparatus is still in place and so is all the fear.....except now its not communism....now the devil is islam!
Their answer is always the same: more fear, more hate, more prejudice, more aggression, more war.....do you really think thats going to work?
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When it comes to the son of hamas thing, be very careful guys, were in complete 100% psy-ops DIA/CIA territory here. As for the flotilla, the repressed generally become the oppressors. It is one of the three great flaws of man.
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Shai Gar
In otherwords the rape victim decides to rape someone.
The holocaust victim decides to concentrate camp someone.
The holocaust victim decides to concentrate camp someone.
I see where you are coming from there Shai but i don't think thats what Ecton means
I think he means that after the Jews were persecuted in Europe (and had to face a lot of anti semitism) many jews felt that they needed a homeland of their own that they could feel safe in and defend themselves in so the zionists drew up a plan to build a country in Palestine.
The problem was people were already living there....the Palestineans, so they drove them out using force. They were supported at different times by imperialist powers such as Britain, France, Russia and the USA.
Now you have the horrific situation of people who were once crammed into ghettos by the nazis, cramming the Palestineans into ghettos.
It's like people get brutalised and they then pass that on and brutalise others....it is all born out of fear and hate
I believe that a land sharing compromise could be met where Jews and Palestineans can live side by side, but for that to happen the Jews need to stop the aggression and start giving some ground, literally and metaphorically to the Palestineans; until that happens the Palestineans will continue to protect themselves with whatever means they can whether it is with rocks, cheap homemade rockets or acts of total desperation such as suicide bombers.
I think he means that after the Jews were persecuted in Europe (and had to face a lot of anti semitism) many jews felt that they needed a homeland of their own that they could feel safe in and defend themselves in so the zionists drew up a plan to build a country in Palestine.
The problem was people were already living there....the Palestineans, so they drove them out using force. They were supported at different times by imperialist powers such as Britain, France, Russia and the USA.
Now you have the horrific situation of people who were once crammed into ghettos by the nazis, cramming the Palestineans into ghettos.
It's like people get brutalised and they then pass that on and brutalise others....it is all born out of fear and hate
I believe that a land sharing compromise could be met where Jews and Palestineans can live side by side, but for that to happen the Jews need to stop the aggression and start giving some ground, literally and metaphorically to the Palestineans; until that happens the Palestineans will continue to protect themselves with whatever means they can whether it is with rocks, cheap homemade rockets or acts of total desperation such as suicide bombers.
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Shai Gar
Fox and CNN? Hardly ever read that. Turkey and Israel have been sliding apart better than a year. Turkey has been reaching farther East for newer allies. Turkey does not think the EU will accept them.
I think Turkey has its eyes on trying to use their might during a weak administration at the US to try and reunite the old empire as its leader. Heads have been replaced in the last two days by Erdogan to attempt this. Turkey and the US are allies, too, but I also think Turkey's leader has his eyes on visions of grandeur. A move to send your navy and air force to test a blockade in Gaza is a political ploy. They wish to gain the more important(to them) Middle East as their allies by challenging the Israelis. It's all politics.
I would almost bet Saudi Arabia would not even step in and help search for munitions at the risk of being more alienated(in spirit) from the Arab and Muslim world. Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Pakistan are just watching with their mouths open.
Folk in the Middle East will not be happy til they have at least what was the Ottoman Empire back in force with oil and opium behind them. United, they will be challenging more before all is said and done. That will be when the big guns are brought out. Sorry, but I think Turkey's leader has his eyes on something bigger than joining the EU. I can only hope their military can see through the ego and weigh the repercussions. Won't read that on Fox.
I think Turkey has its eyes on trying to use their might during a weak administration at the US to try and reunite the old empire as its leader. Heads have been replaced in the last two days by Erdogan to attempt this. Turkey and the US are allies, too, but I also think Turkey's leader has his eyes on visions of grandeur. A move to send your navy and air force to test a blockade in Gaza is a political ploy. They wish to gain the more important(to them) Middle East as their allies by challenging the Israelis. It's all politics.
I would almost bet Saudi Arabia would not even step in and help search for munitions at the risk of being more alienated(in spirit) from the Arab and Muslim world. Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Pakistan are just watching with their mouths open.
Folk in the Middle East will not be happy til they have at least what was the Ottoman Empire back in force with oil and opium behind them. United, they will be challenging more before all is said and done. That will be when the big guns are brought out. Sorry, but I think Turkey's leader has his eyes on something bigger than joining the EU. I can only hope their military can see through the ego and weigh the repercussions. Won't read that on Fox.
...and if Israel has nukes, they surely don't use them or throw them around. They use their air power to throw smarter weaponry at military targets. Their proximity to civilians is unfortunate.
If humanitarian aid is all others want to get to Gaza, why can it not go through the proper channels. You place your luggage in the airports to be searched for reasons. It is all about safety.
I cannot weigh the importance of the Turkish military's standing down on this. Build a small proxy for radical Islam in Gaza and the people there will suffer far more than they do now. The people there are being used as pawns that have no meaning to the players fighting the blockade.
If humanitarian aid is all others want to get to Gaza, why can it not go through the proper channels. You place your luggage in the airports to be searched for reasons. It is all about safety.
I cannot weigh the importance of the Turkish military's standing down on this. Build a small proxy for radical Islam in Gaza and the people there will suffer far more than they do now. The people there are being used as pawns that have no meaning to the players fighting the blockade.
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Shai Gar
People chosen by your country right? Like the dictators placed there by the US government the last time the CIA interferred with Iranian politics?
Look at how wonderfully that turned out for them.
Look at how wonderfully that turned out for them.
Neither would i!
Thats the crazy thing isn't it....most people around the world feel the same way we do, but the power elites in each country are playing power games
They tell us who our enemies are. One year Iraq might be our friend and Iran is too. Another year Iraq is our friend against Iran which is now our enemy. Another year they are both our enemy!
Then they tell us that Saudi Arabia is our friend whilst most the 9/11 bombers were from saudi arabia!
George Orwell wrote about this in 1984! They change the story all the time and do all sorts of disgusting things claiming they are doing it to protect us, when there wasn't a threat before they did the thing they did!
The people in each country need to recognise that they are not enemies and they need to start looking at who is running their country, where the wealth is and whether a few people should be controlling all the wealth and power and deciding to take us all to war all the time!
Don't worry about Iran.....you only need to worry about them if you make an enemy of them! Worry about the political elites in your country that think that the best way of them keeping power is to define your country against other countries and for them to cast themselves in the role of your protector
The more they can make us scared of supposed threats the more power they have over us.
The more they can make us hate others the more we are defined as something different, which gives them more power over us!
Iran has detached itself from the asian landmass and is moving towards the US? Thats what they need the nuclear power for ....to drive their giant country-boat! I knew they were upto something
Look the US has made half the world feel so unsafe that they feel they have to have nuclear weapons
Also how can the US and UK etc preach against others having nuclear weapons when they have so many themselves and are using them to threaten other countries?
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I am usually highly critical of Israeli operations, but that's because usually Israeli operations involve pretty much indiscriminate air raids and their troublesome expanding settlements. In Europe and the west generally opinions are divided on this on a 'left/right' basis, which is not the case at all in the actual region concerned.
I am behind the Israelis on this one. The Turkish ship that was boarded by commandos was, yeah, belonging to an 'aid' agency, the 'IHYV' to be exact which is linked to the Turkish government aaaaand what Turkish government is in power? The AKP are, who have an islamist agenda and are religious conservatives with an increasingly prominent undercurrent of anti-secular values. Just take a look at the photo on the aid agency's website of green flag waving 'people who care about the plight of Palestinians in the Gaza strip' (only because they're Muslim brothers though, otherwise they'de only be worth minimal sympathy, if that) http://www.ihh.org.tr/
For some naiive left wingers to charge about blowing the horn for Hamas simply because they were democratically elected (just goes to show democracy should not be the ultimate goal since when 80%+ of the electorate are tribalist peasants this is what you get) is somewhat ironic. The long-term goals of key supporters of the Palestinian cause are frightening should anyone think to research them a bit. Aside from the obvious ones like Iran, most noteably I am talking about the current Turkish government since they are so 'mild' on the surface. Some across the the Arab world are hailing the Turkish PM the new 'Nasser' of the Muslim world. For a Turkish leader to be associated with such a title is itself a virtual defeat of what the historic secular movement has worked for to set it apart from the seething bickering masses of the rest of the Muslim world.
I just don't get why supporters of Palestine can't suffice with simply being opposers of Israeli agression, since actively supporting such a volatile and religiously-rooted collection of pan-islamic champions of rhetoric and tribal based counter agression runs in total opposite to basic principles of the general liberal/left leaning of Palestinian sympathisers.
Back to the topic of the raiding of the ship though. The 600 or so mostly Turkish activists on board were and largely ARE not peace-seekers or harmless do-gooders which most Irish, American, German or whatever activists are. Seeing the ferocity with which they assaulted the Israelis with iron bars and clubs in their attempted lynching of them is proof enough. They, for the most part, are the offspring of Turkey's new governing elite, the hapless and largely witless minions of the 'pious' AK government and simply see Israel as an enemy and do so NOT on a primarily humanitarian basis but on a religious one. And that is VERY dangerous.
Let's also not forget that Hamas is essentially a terrorist organisation, so even if all cargo onboard had been mere foodstufs or medical aid, it would ALL have fallen into the hands of Hamas who would have dealt it out as they saw fit - perhaps selecting to feed their own 'islamic resistance movement' supporters and letting the supporters of their political arch enemies Fatah wallow in destitution, thus making the former more dominant, brutal and dictatorial and prolonging their civil struggle and the conflict with Israel even further... all thanks to innocent western lefty gangs banding together to give the 'people' aid. Giving aid to a society ruled by people who will be ideologically selective about its distribution is not giving aid at all.
So Israel was right to apprehend the ships, right to defend themselves in the face of otherwise certain death at the hands of a lynch mob, and had they not been attacked, would have been right - or arguably wrong? (previous paragraph) - to let the presumably innocent cargo continue on it's route. Then again, seeing as this Turkish vessel had political ulterior motives behind it through its links to the tr government, I wouldn't have minded seeing the whole damn thing sunk.
I am behind the Israelis on this one. The Turkish ship that was boarded by commandos was, yeah, belonging to an 'aid' agency, the 'IHYV' to be exact which is linked to the Turkish government aaaaand what Turkish government is in power? The AKP are, who have an islamist agenda and are religious conservatives with an increasingly prominent undercurrent of anti-secular values. Just take a look at the photo on the aid agency's website of green flag waving 'people who care about the plight of Palestinians in the Gaza strip' (only because they're Muslim brothers though, otherwise they'de only be worth minimal sympathy, if that) http://www.ihh.org.tr/
For some naiive left wingers to charge about blowing the horn for Hamas simply because they were democratically elected (just goes to show democracy should not be the ultimate goal since when 80%+ of the electorate are tribalist peasants this is what you get) is somewhat ironic. The long-term goals of key supporters of the Palestinian cause are frightening should anyone think to research them a bit. Aside from the obvious ones like Iran, most noteably I am talking about the current Turkish government since they are so 'mild' on the surface. Some across the the Arab world are hailing the Turkish PM the new 'Nasser' of the Muslim world. For a Turkish leader to be associated with such a title is itself a virtual defeat of what the historic secular movement has worked for to set it apart from the seething bickering masses of the rest of the Muslim world.
I just don't get why supporters of Palestine can't suffice with simply being opposers of Israeli agression, since actively supporting such a volatile and religiously-rooted collection of pan-islamic champions of rhetoric and tribal based counter agression runs in total opposite to basic principles of the general liberal/left leaning of Palestinian sympathisers.
Back to the topic of the raiding of the ship though. The 600 or so mostly Turkish activists on board were and largely ARE not peace-seekers or harmless do-gooders which most Irish, American, German or whatever activists are. Seeing the ferocity with which they assaulted the Israelis with iron bars and clubs in their attempted lynching of them is proof enough. They, for the most part, are the offspring of Turkey's new governing elite, the hapless and largely witless minions of the 'pious' AK government and simply see Israel as an enemy and do so NOT on a primarily humanitarian basis but on a religious one. And that is VERY dangerous.
Let's also not forget that Hamas is essentially a terrorist organisation, so even if all cargo onboard had been mere foodstufs or medical aid, it would ALL have fallen into the hands of Hamas who would have dealt it out as they saw fit - perhaps selecting to feed their own 'islamic resistance movement' supporters and letting the supporters of their political arch enemies Fatah wallow in destitution, thus making the former more dominant, brutal and dictatorial and prolonging their civil struggle and the conflict with Israel even further... all thanks to innocent western lefty gangs banding together to give the 'people' aid. Giving aid to a society ruled by people who will be ideologically selective about its distribution is not giving aid at all.
So Israel was right to apprehend the ships, right to defend themselves in the face of otherwise certain death at the hands of a lynch mob, and had they not been attacked, would have been right - or arguably wrong? (previous paragraph) - to let the presumably innocent cargo continue on it's route. Then again, seeing as this Turkish vessel had political ulterior motives behind it through its links to the tr government, I wouldn't have minded seeing the whole damn thing sunk.
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I wouldn't feel safe if Bush and Rumsfeld and whatnot were by themselves with a nuclear arsenal. Nor anyone else. But these people are inescapably confined by treaties and laws that if broken would render their careers in tatters, and their careers are all that matter to them.
The camera-toting Iranian midget with several chips on his shoulder is not bound by any such treaty and come on, would you feel just as safe (or unsafe) if a religiously-motivated (which means there's an excuse for everything) government had nuclear arms as opposed to, say, Germany?
Your argument would hold if you were reffering to the US and UK saying that to Austria or Latvia, but Iran and a host of similar tribal regimes are not quite in the same league of human decency.
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