Son of Son of Hamas

Iran has detached itself from the asian landmass and is moving towards the US? Thats what they need the nuclear power for ....to drive their giant country-boat! I knew they were upto something

Look the US has made half the world feel so unsafe that they feel they have to have nuclear weapons

Also how can the US and UK etc preach against others having nuclear weapons when they have so many themselves and are using them to threaten other countries?

It has become quite obvious to me where I have found myself. That picture at least sat there for the better part of a day with no reply.
Things can get out of anyone's control quite quickly in that arena.

I praise Israel for how they have handled themselves, for the most part as I would disclaim for anyone, in the past and the present years facing the threats and attacks they have faced in the manners they have faced them. This is all about control of an area for selfish means that belongs to Israel. Someone will be getting the bill for it when all is said and done, or maybe even while all is said and done.

I seriously doubt another country, placed in Israel's shoes, could have ever performed with such restraint over the years. America will pay dearly if it turns its back on Israel. Sounds like that is what a lot of folk want; America to pay dearly. They will not be alone.

America's new leadership appears to be feeding Israel to the dogs. What do they possibly think their actions will get them? Putin will consolidate authority with their WMDs, which greatly outnumber those of the US, until their southern neighbors build theirs. Anyone else wish to guess what is going to happen? I like to speculate.
 
You really haven't enjoyed your time in Turkey have you?

I am not arguing for everyone to have nuclear weapons i am calling the west hypocrites for saying only they should have them

No weapons were found on the flotilla

The flotilla was attacked in international waters. You say that they tried to lynch the israelis who were landing on their boats in force, in international waters......who was lynching who?

I disagree also that 'democracy should not be the ultimate goal' because '80% of the electorate are tribalist peasants'.

You are completely missing the point.....WHY ARE 80% POOR WHILE 20% ARE RICH that is what needs to be looked at

Also democracy only works if you have an informed electorate. The current system does not educate the electorate sufficently. That is the point the left are making.....that there are a few people hoarding the wealth and power and education!

If you want a safer world then make it more equal not less equal

For as long as things are unequal and for as long as the few are oppressing the many, the many will turn to radical parties that say they will represent the interests of the masses

If you are worried about the threat to secularism in Turkey and elsewhere then ask yourself why other movements are on the rise?
 
Last edited:
It has become quite obvious to me where I have found myself. That picture at least sat there for the better part of a day with no reply.
Things can get out of anyone's control quite quickly in that arena.

I praise Israel for how they have handled themselves, for the most part as I would disclaim for anyone, in the past and the present years facing the threats and attacks they have faced in the manners they have faced them. This is all about control of an area for selfish means that belongs to Israel. Someone will be getting the bill for it when all is said and done, or maybe even while all is said and done.

I seriously doubt another country, placed in Israel's shoes, could have ever performed with such restraint over the years. America will pay dearly if it turns its back on Israel. Sounds like that is what a lot of folk want; America to pay dearly. They will not be alone.

America's new leadership appears to be feeding Israel to the dogs. What do they possibly think their actions will get them? Putin will consolidate authority with their WMDs, which greatly outnumber those of the US, until their southern neighbors build theirs. Anyone else wish to guess what is going to happen? I like to speculate.

We are trying to fit what is happening into a larger geo-political picture...yes?

The US has escalated the stakes around the world. It created the nuclear bomb, it created an arms race with the USSR, it polarised the world in the cold war, it has divided the world with the 'washington consensus', it has sold weapons around the world, fomented trouble, created puppet governments and helped them persecute their own people, funded violent factions (which have sometimes then turned on the US), it has made china into a weathy rival, got developing countries into massive debt, spread its poisonous brand of capitalism around the world (causing massive inequality, poverty, conflict and imbalance around the world).....IT HAS CREATED AND CONTINUES TO CREATE ALL OF ITS OWN PROBLEMS

When will you face upto this?

Britain did the same the previous century, but the stakes have never been higher.

The only hope is to deescalate, NOT to crank up the violence and tension

The enemies of the US are getting stronger. The US is losing its grip over central and southern america, asia is beginning to unite, the muslims may begin to unite.......can't you see that aggressive control is ultimately going to fail?
 
Last edited:
Maybe everyone should wear a white shirt, tan pants, black shoes, and ride the bus. We can all have chicken noodle soup for lunch. I can work 16 hour days and give my money to others my age laying in the bed 16 hours a day and watching the boob tube the other eight.

As for your anti-American rhetoric? I see you are not speaking German.
There are as many non-governmental funds, if not more, going to other countries from here for humanitarian reasons. Some rich doctors somewhere are building hospitals in Africa with all their money they have from suppressing the poor that want to stand on the corners with their little signs playing on people's sympathy and guilt.....helped load a container or two myself. We had an aircraft carrier off the coast after the last major tsunami helping others. We are in Haiti right now helping others.

What really gets to me is why so many people want to come to America to learn and earn. I'm proud of America. We have made our mistakes and some I am not proud of, but at least we don't sit on our hands and our money and watch others pay for the bills. Matter of fact, I am not at all disgruntled with the world I live in. My biggest problem seems to be looking down the road.

Oil everywhere and everyone is worried about so many things. I worry about the food for the birds migrating this and next fall and winter. Will they be able to return to their breeding grounds? Will the food they eat affect their breeding? What could they return to the north with? Matter of fact, spoke with USFWS today about it. There are others to deal with the other problems. I try to focus where I feel I might can help the most and focus years from now. You want to look back and blame; I want to warn of danger ahead. You want to look now and laugh; I want to look ahead and feel much sorrow. When I feel sorrow, I speak. I value life. I have learned to live with change. Where is all the infj intuition? Where is all the extroverted feeling? Are we so caught up in today we cannot see tomorrow? The past has taught me what sorrow means.

Ask Saudi Arabia about distribution of wealth.

As for deescalating? Stop the Iranian and Turkish flotillas. If it were my call, there would be eyes watching through periscopes from American subs. I watch out for my allies. Test Israel and you would be testing me alongside them.

Russia has the most nukes. We help them maintain their arsenal, as they require maintenance.
 
White t-shirts, tan pants, black shoes, chicken noodles, buses???? What are you talking about?

You say i am playing a blame game, i say you are failing to see the big picture and i am trying to point out to you the role various sides have played. Why am i doing this? Because i am taking an objective view whilst you are clinging to narrow minded NATIONALISM

You say i am looking back; yes i do look to history for answers

You say i want to look and laugh? Is that because of the joke i made about Iran detatching itself from the Asian landmass? That humour was designed to satire the level of fear which has been created in some peoples minds (have you ever seen Kubricks 'Dr Strangelove'....same thing)

I am not anti American. I am not against people anywhere. I have repeatedly said i am against the power elites in each country including my own who are exploiting their own people to stay rich and are playing the same game on a global level

What i am saying is look at history.....look at the results of following these people. Look at what is happening now because we are following these people....then cast your eye forward with this knowledge in mind....what do you think the future holds if we keep following these people?

Tomorrow is precisely my concern

I have spoken about alternatives in my other posts for example about anarcho-communism

I am optomistic about the direction some countries are going. But at the moment it is the countries which have felt the whip of the west on their backs who are trying to change.

The populations of the west haven't been as mistreated by their political elites as the people of other countries. This might be changing though as western countries try to tackle their debt. The rich will squeeze the poor and more people will wake upto the reality of the situation and start questioning if we really are doing things the best way. For example are we allocating resources the best and most sustainable way?

You mention 'non governmental funds' going to humanitarian efforts; charities are basically the people paying to clear up the messes that rich capitalist elites have created; this is because, unlike the power elites, the people DO care about what happens to other people, even ones from others countries
 
Last edited:
You really haven't enjoyed your time in Turkey have you?

I am not arguing for everyone to have nuclear weapons i am calling the west hypocrites for saying only they should have them

No weapons were found on the flotilla

The flotilla was attacked in international waters. You say that they tried to lynch the israelis who were landing on their boats in force, in international waters......who was lynching who?
On the contrary I overall enjoy living in Turkey. It's diverse and politically quite exciting since there are real opposing political, cultural and religious views here, about which I am savvy since I speak the language and am half Turkish anyway. 'Not enjoying my time' in Turkey has absolutely nothing to do with me not supporting the current government. The current governmnet is not 'Turkey', it's just the body that rules it at the moment and you'd do well not to see things so black and white.

As for the aid ship, Turkish media clearly showed bloodied Israeli soldiers and footage of passengers laying into them with metal bars and clubs with no inhibitions whatsoever. Yes, Turkish media, and some of the channels I saw it on are right wing uber-conservative ones who I would not be surprised aired it with a degree of pride.

Israelis embarking ships would not simply gun down the passengers. It would be more trouble that it was worth. If the passengers had been 600 Irish activists I am fairly certain this wouldn't have happened. They were 600 hot blooded largely male religiously-motivated 'aid workers' who would have been employed by the organisation owning the ship through funds from the Turkish government. Most of these people are 'one-off' activists and you'd never see any of them planting trees, going to Nepal or helping destitute street kids on their OWN streets back in Turkey. They just jumped on the anti-Israeli bandwagon to have a bash, being the uneducated futureless brutes they are. Turkish media itself does them no favours other than sometimes praising their 'piety' so for western media to portray them as genuine aid workers is hugely misleading.

Also, if the Israelis had waited 15 munites until they were in Israeli waters, then yes, it would have made so much difference..

I disagree also that 'democracy should not be the ultimate goal' because '80% of the electorate are tribalist peasants'.

You are completely missing the point.....WHY ARE 80% POOR WHILE 20% ARE RICH that is what needs to be looked at

Also democracy only works if you have an informed electorate. The current system does not educate the electorate sufficently. That is the point the left are making.....that there are a few people hoarding the wealth and power and education!
So democracy only works if you have an informed electorate (opposite of uneducated) but you disagree with my statement that 80% of the electorate are tribalist peasants? (uninformed) They're the same thing matey, you just worded it more politely, so in essence we agree on that point.

But did it ever occur to you also that many simply don't want to be 'informed' in the western understanding of the term, and that the very notion of the democratic process is viewed by many as a wishy washy western process that runs counter to their age-old staunch beliefs in tribal loyalties, conservative dogma and religion?

It is normal in traditional muslim societies to have hierarchies. Left wing movements in the Muslim world are practically void of religious content due to their incompatability, and therefore have a very small following.
For religious peasants, 'middle class' [aka equality] is something they cannot fathom. To them, someone is either rich or poor. The rich in many muslim societies are still peasants, since they too cannot see the merits of the middle class and just view them as poor too.

Talking about 'dispersing the wealth equally' is all well and good, but in the Gaza strip you'd probably have about 20 families that would happily keep their fair share whilst the remaining million or so families would either want more and forcibly take more, or not know what to do with such sums of money and either squander it or sit on it which is no help to any economy.


If you want a safer world then make it more equal not less equal

For as long as things are unequal and for as long as the few are oppressing the many, the many will turn to radical parties that say they will represent the interests of the masses
Too rosy a view imo. Living in Turkey and having experienced the opinions of Turkish peasantry first hand (who are probably the mildest of the muslim world) it is blatantly clear to me that vast swathes of the masses simply can't be that fussed about equality. The tribal mentality that still persists in the villages here (and is mirrored in communities such as the Palestinians) is focused on individual gain or at the most familial. Honour, image and wealth mean pretty much everything to the vast majority of them and those that don't fit into that mould either have to seek escape to big cities [in Turkey] or move abroad as is the case with intellectuals and free thinkers across the muslim world. We may not agree with the methods these tribalist communities use to function, but that isn't to say ANYONE can bandy democracy around there saying 'oh, let's educate the people, give them choice' as though it will give them a 'better life'. In theory it will give them a western life, but in the eyes of those who never grew up with it, not a better one. And in reality, the new found freedom would open a whole new can of warring worms as seen in Iraq, which is now 'happily democratic'. Democracy may work in some spheres but overall the entire muslim world needs a traditional hand to keep it's populace in check and to keep them content - again, not saying that's the right way in our eyes, but taking into account their unevolving cultures, habits and priorities, it is for them.

People in the Gaza strip gravitate to 'radical parties' because they have familial and tribal loyalties to adhere to, for the most part. You're born into a Fatah family, you will support Fatah. Same for Hamas. Choice is not really an option and the majority of the people don't miss what they have never had [choice]. Any switches in alleigance that are done, are done by the sword and result in cut ties, familial excommunications and blood fueds. Or fleeing abroad.

Ultimately most people that have staunch views on the Israel-Palestine conflict or the politics of the muslim world in general suffer from lack of first hand experience with genuine traditionally muslim peasantry. I can safely say from my - I like to think nonbiased - stand point the number one conclusion I reached was that the 'uninformed masses' are only oppressed in the eyes of those with democratic and western values. They temselves are perfectly happy with their status quo of no-questions-asked traditional dogma.

If you are worried about the threat to secularism in Turkey and elsewhere then ask yourself why other movements are on the rise?
Because people are stupid? Yes, or maybe no, rather people like to take the stupid path because it's easy. Secularism in Turkey requires effort and scruples. Several years ago there were immense pro-secular rallies in all major cities that voiced their defiance of the creeping religious agenda of the ruling party. Those that made up these throngs were educated, cultured - nationalistic yes - but crucially sought ratification and genuine human justification for their held beliefs. These people were and are open to changes of their opinions should circumstances change, much like atheists are. The people who follow 'the other movements', as you put it, in Turkey were initially pretty mild and often good-intentioned. The AK party when it came to power in 2002 had no obvious religious agenda and was a pro-European, pro-American, pro-everyone seemingly reform-minded open party. 3 election wins later and they are a different story, and the more laid back members of the electorate that voted for them back in 2002 are fast disappearing and have been replaced with bitter young male failures with no future and generally the mono-principled peasants who support them purely and PURELY because they are 'men of the book'.

There was a famous Turkish writer who said that 60% of the Turkish population are idiots. He was threatened to great degrees until he 'repealed' his view. I think that where politics is concerned 60% of the GLOBAL population are idiots.


Look, you evidently hold your views on a humanitarian basis and are not propelled by some ulterior motive and harbour no hidden agendas. That is admirable, but I simply urge you not to by default oppose what initially seems like 'same old western imperialism' without fully grasping the intentions and motivations behind the vast majority of those it is in conflict with.
 
Last edited:
I appreciate the complexities of Turkeys political make up. I am also aware of the tug and pull between secular and religious forces and how the army has had to step in to maintain Ataturk's modernisation of Turkey

What i saw when i was there was sprawling cities where many of the once agrarian 'peasants' had been moved into an urban environment

This same process happened in the west as part of industrialisation and elsewhere as people seek work

So there is a widening chasm between the haves and have nots as some people embrace western consumerism whilst others look eastward to Islam

I think as the gap opens up between the haves and have nots the have nots will become increasingly agitated. I think they will listen to voices that point out the damage western imperialism has caused around the world (including Turkey) whether those voices have a religious flavour or not

I understand that you feel distinct from the Turkish 'peasants'; that is because you are educated and western.

But if you think that the solution to growing agitation in the muslim world is to increase the inequality then i disagree with you

I think islam is offering many an alternative to what they see as the devil incarnate; by that i mean western culture, aggression and capitalism (i want to avoid narrowly calling it the US, because other nations have all played their part).

I was sitting in a cafe in a two horse town on the edge of the sahara years ago and there was a television on the wall. On the TV was a music video of Eminem, covered in golden bling, sitting in a sparkling red convertible, with a woman on either side of him, both wearing bikinis; they were rubbing into him as he rapped to the camera.

I sat there watching this and looking around me at the conservatively dressed muslims wondering what they must think of the west from what they see on the TV.

I think some, particularly young males, might watch it and think 'wow the streets in america are paved with gold, i don't want an arranged marriage and no sex until i'm married, i want to move to america have a nice car, women and live that lifestyle'. Others probably think that american values run contrary to all their traditions, beliefs and social mores.

They can see the creeping effect of western culture as it seeps into their countries and affects their young who suddenly aren't interested in tradition.

Equally there are probably people who watch it and are resentful. They might think: 'that is how people in the west are living while we are living like this and yet they have exploited us through our history and look at how they are exploiting our muslim brothers elsewhere.'

While i watched that video i realised that suddenly due to technology people around the world were becoming aware that they were poor and that other people elsewhere had all sorts of things they didn't; look at the massed migration of people to the west as they seek the streets paved with gold.

Growing awareness of the imbalance....growing resentment.

Later that year the twin towers were hit
 
Last edited:
Bah, yes, I've not gotten into politics like this for an age, and whilst I find it sort of satisfying I also find it damaging and it irritates and depresses me to, so many opinions and none are necessrily 'wrong'.

Where did you visit by the way?
 
I know what you mean

When i do look at history there becomes a sort of.....inevitability to certain situations which undermines attempts to apportion blame

For example imperialism results from countries competing, but once this process begins it just runs and runs

It seems history does just keep looping round and round. The persian empire, the greek empire, the roman empire, the holy roman empire, the british empire, the US empire......each one argues it is advancing humanity but each has caused untold suffering and problems which have rippled down through the centuries

I strongly believe that at some point some people have to break this loop

I visited various historic sites and some natural wonders. What an amazing melting pot of peoples, religions, languages, civilizations! And so many chapters of history have played out there....it whispers to you of heros of old and great happenings!

I feel i didn't even scratch the surface and will definately be back in the future.

Due to time constraints i didn't get further east than Cappadocia but will head easterer next time! (i know things are pretty dodgy with the PKK in the far east).
 
Last edited:
A night of rest. Wish folk could just get along. Neighbors are supposed to help each other. Have a good evening.
 
Yeah, passions run high sometimes!

G'night neighbour!
 
Fox and CNN? Hardly ever read that. Turkey and Israel have been sliding apart better than a year. Turkey has been reaching farther East for newer allies. Turkey does not think the EU will accept them.

I think Turkey has its eyes on trying to use their might during a weak administration at the US to try and reunite the old empire as its leader. Heads have been replaced in the last two days by Erdogan to attempt this. Turkey and the US are allies, too, but I also think Turkey's leader has his eyes on visions of grandeur. A move to send your navy and air force to test a blockade in Gaza is a political ploy. They wish to gain the more important(to them) Middle East as their allies by challenging the Israelis. It's all politics.

I would almost bet Saudi Arabia would not even step in and help search for munitions at the risk of being more alienated(in spirit) from the Arab and Muslim world. Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Pakistan are just watching with their mouths open.

Folk in the Middle East will not be happy til they have at least what was the Ottoman Empire back in force with oil and opium behind them. United, they will be challenging more before all is said and done. That will be when the big guns are brought out. Sorry, but I think Turkey's leader has his eyes on something bigger than joining the EU. I can only hope their military can see through the ego and weigh the repercussions. Won't read that on Fox.

The end of this year or early 2011 will be the Turkish general election. the AKP are likely to lose votes this time around and it'll probably be tight seeing as the opposition FINALLY has a new leader, but if they win again it does not bode well for Turkey's alliances with Europe and the west. Or me!

But if the opposition win you can be guaranteed relations with israel will be on the mend, there won't be any more government backed 'aid' flotillas probing Israeli maritime boundadries and the past 8+ years of this creeping religious government will fast become old news. Not to say the tensions here will be extinguished, just buried again for a decade or so.

Vote for the secular opposition! If they don't win and Turkey's sentened to 4 more years of this islamist governments agenda then the people clearly don't know what's good for them, and I'd be happy to sacrifice democracy for a few years of good old Turkish military regime!
 
Last edited:
The end of this year or early 2011 will be the Turkish general election. the AKP are likely to lose votes this time around and it'll probably be tight seeing as the opposition FINALLY has a new leader, but if they win again it does not bode well for Turkey's alliances with Europe and the west. Or me!

But if the opposition win you can be guaranteed relations with israel will be on the mend, there won't be any more government backed 'aid' flotillas probing Israeli maritime boundadries and the past 8+ years of this creeping religious government will fast become old news. Not to say the tensions here will be extinguished, just buried again for a decade or so.

Vote for the secular opposition! If they don't win and Turkey's sentened to 4 more years of this islamist governments agenda then the people clearly don't know what's good for them, and I'd be happy to sacrifice democracy for a few years of good old Turkish military regime!

Well said! George Bush was somewhat overcoming with his desire to spread democracy, but truth is it is not for everyone. Democracy, like all governments, has its flaws.

Your military currently may have more security-minded leaders, worldwide speaking, than those in the current government. Reminds me of NASCAR and the Daytona 500; a few cars get hooked up together and stop trying to pass each other and they move faster, better, and often leave the rest of the field behind them. The world could learn from that. If we worked together for the general good of each other we could more quickly overcome the current financial and jobless situations we have.

Don't tell that to the arms manufacturers, though. If we have wars just for the economy we are lost. (Not that I don't like arms)
 
Last edited:
Well said! George Bush was somewhat overcoming with his desire to spread democracy, but truth is it is not for everyone. Democracy, like all governments, has its flaws.

Your military currently may have more security-minded leaders, worldwide speaking, than those in the current government. Reminds me of NASCAR and the Daytona 500; a few cars get hooked up together and stop trying to pass each other and they move faster, better, and often leave the rest of the field behind them. The world could learn from that. If we worked together for the general good of each other we could more quickly overcome the current financial and jobless situations we have.

Don't tell that to the arms manufacturers, though. If we have wars just for the economy we are lost. (Not that I don't like arms)
Hah, interesting comparison there. But yes, I guess the world could learn a thing or two from it.

War is as natural a part of humanity as anger is, animals 'make war' with rival clans as we do, just we have shocking firefower and the ability to cause utter devestation rather than localised hot spots. That is arguably unnatural, which is why I reckon if we must make war, let us do so on the field man to man and let it go no further!

Following on from what muir said too, history plays on loop, todays developed nations may be the strugglers of tomorrow - certainly they cannot exist in 150 years as stable as they are today with 50% of the population over 95.. So history loops, that sort of makes bickering about how the same old cycles come about futile, and so we can all say bugger it and have a cold beer under an apple (cider) tree.

I visited various historic sites and some natural wonders. What an amazing melting pot of peoples, religions, languages, civilizations! And so many chapters of history have played out there....it whispers to you of heros of old and great happenings!

I feel i didn't even scratch the surface and will definately be back in the future.

Due to time constraints i didn't get further east than Cappadocia but will head easterer next time! (i know things are pretty dodgy with the PKK in the far east).
Ah yes the east is rich in history too, and aside from the flocks of ark-seekers, I'd like to see it too some day. Nothing like the rest of 'tourist-acclimatised' Turkey though, there you are not only in more danger when out in the sticks because tourists stick out like a sore thumb, but also will have villagers living in the 18th century ogle at you and make you feel terribly conscious. Some people don't mind that, but for me it totally detracts from the task in hand.

I just hope tourists keep a coming because without them there isn't much local care for the richness and wealth of the Anatolian flora and fauna as well as it's history.
 
Last edited:
War is as natural a part of humanity as anger is, animals 'make war' with rival clans as we do, just we have shocking firefower and the ability to cause utter devestation rather than localised hot spots. That is arguably unnatural, which is why I reckon if we must make war, let us do so on the field man to man and let it go no further!

It is unfortunate, as with Kyrgyzstan.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top