You really haven't enjoyed your time in Turkey have you?
I am not arguing for everyone to have nuclear weapons i am calling the west hypocrites for saying only they should have them
No weapons were found on the flotilla
The flotilla was attacked in international waters. You say that they tried to lynch the israelis who were landing on their boats in force, in international waters......who was lynching who?
On the contrary I overall enjoy living in Turkey. It's diverse and politically quite exciting since there are real opposing political, cultural and religious views here, about which I am savvy since I speak the language and am half Turkish anyway. 'Not enjoying my time' in Turkey has absolutely nothing to do with me not supporting the current government. The current governmnet is not 'Turkey', it's just the body that rules it at the moment and you'd do well not to see things so black and white.
As for the aid ship, Turkish media clearly showed bloodied Israeli soldiers and footage of passengers laying into them with metal bars and clubs with no inhibitions whatsoever. Yes,
Turkish media, and some of the channels I saw it on are right wing uber-conservative ones who I would not be surprised aired it with a degree of pride.
Israelis embarking ships would not simply gun down the passengers. It would be more trouble that it was worth. If the passengers had been 600 Irish activists I am fairly certain this wouldn't have happened. They were 600 hot blooded largely male religiously-motivated 'aid workers' who would have been employed by the organisation owning the ship through funds from the Turkish government. Most of these people are 'one-off' activists and you'd never see any of them planting trees, going to Nepal or helping destitute street kids on their OWN streets back in Turkey. They just jumped on the anti-Israeli bandwagon to have a bash, being the uneducated futureless brutes they are. Turkish media itself does them no favours other than sometimes praising their 'piety' so for western media to portray them as genuine aid workers is hugely misleading.
Also, if the Israelis had waited 15 munites until they were in Israeli waters, then yes, it would have made so much difference..
I disagree also that 'democracy should not be the ultimate goal' because '80% of the electorate are tribalist peasants'.
You are completely missing the point.....WHY ARE 80% POOR WHILE 20% ARE RICH that is what needs to be looked at
Also democracy only works if you have an informed electorate. The current system does not educate the electorate sufficently. That is the point the left are making.....that there are a few people hoarding the wealth and power and education!
So democracy only works if you have an informed electorate (opposite of uneducated) but you disagree with my statement that 80% of the electorate are tribalist peasants? (uninformed) They're the same thing matey, you just worded it more politely, so in essence we agree on that point.
But did it ever occur to you also that many simply don't
want to be 'informed' in the western understanding of the term, and that the very notion of the democratic process is viewed by many as a wishy washy western process that runs counter to their age-old staunch beliefs in tribal loyalties, conservative dogma and religion?
It is
normal in traditional muslim societies to have hierarchies. Left wing movements in the Muslim world are practically void of religious content due to their incompatability, and therefore have a very small following.
For religious peasants, 'middle class' [aka equality] is something they cannot fathom. To them, someone is either rich or poor. The rich in many muslim societies are still peasants, since they too cannot see the merits of the middle class and just view them as poor too.
Talking about 'dispersing the wealth equally' is all well and good, but in the Gaza strip you'd probably have about 20 families that would happily keep their fair share whilst the remaining million or so families would either want more and forcibly take more, or not know what to do with such sums of money and either squander it or sit on it which is no help to any economy.
If you want a safer world then make it more equal not less equal
For as long as things are unequal and for as long as the few are oppressing the many, the many will turn to radical parties that say they will represent the interests of the masses
Too rosy a view imo. Living in Turkey and having experienced the opinions of Turkish peasantry first hand (who are probably the mildest of the muslim world) it is blatantly clear to me that vast swathes of the masses simply can't be that fussed about equality. The tribal mentality that still persists in the villages here (and is mirrored in communities such as the Palestinians) is focused on individual gain or at the most familial. Honour, image and wealth mean pretty much everything to the vast majority of them and those that don't fit into that mould either have to seek escape to big cities [in Turkey] or move abroad as is the case with intellectuals and free thinkers across the muslim world. We may not agree with the methods these tribalist communities use to function, but that isn't to say ANYONE can bandy democracy around there saying 'oh, let's educate the people, give them choice' as though it will give them a 'better life'. In theory it will give them a western life, but in the eyes of those who never grew up with it, not a better one. And in reality, the new found freedom would open a whole new can of warring worms as seen in Iraq, which is now 'happily democratic'. Democracy may work in some spheres but overall the entire muslim world needs a traditional hand to keep it's populace in check and to keep them content - again, not saying that's the
right way in our eyes, but taking into account their unevolving cultures, habits and priorities, it is for them.
People in the Gaza strip gravitate to 'radical parties' because they have familial and tribal loyalties to adhere to, for the most part. You're born into a Fatah family, you will support Fatah. Same for Hamas. Choice is not really an option and the majority of the people don't miss what they have never had [choice]. Any switches in alleigance that
are done, are done by the sword and result in cut ties, familial excommunications and blood fueds. Or fleeing abroad.
Ultimately most people that have
staunch views on the Israel-Palestine conflict or the politics of the muslim world in general suffer from lack of first hand experience with genuine traditionally muslim peasantry. I can safely say from my - I like to think nonbiased - stand point the number one conclusion I reached was that the 'uninformed masses' are only oppressed in the eyes of those with democratic and western values. They temselves are perfectly happy with their status quo of no-questions-asked traditional dogma.
If you are worried about the threat to secularism in Turkey and elsewhere then ask yourself why other movements are on the rise?
Because people are stupid? Yes, or maybe no, rather people
like to take the stupid path because it's easy. Secularism in Turkey requires effort and scruples. Several years ago there were immense pro-secular rallies in all major cities that voiced their defiance of the creeping religious agenda of the ruling party. Those that made up these throngs were educated, cultured - nationalistic yes - but crucially sought ratification and genuine human justification for their held beliefs. These people were and are open to changes of their opinions should circumstances change, much like atheists are. The people who follow 'the other movements', as you put it, in Turkey were initially pretty mild and often good-intentioned. The AK party when it came to power in 2002 had no obvious religious agenda and was a pro-European, pro-American, pro-everyone seemingly reform-minded open party. 3 election wins later and they are a different story, and the more laid back members of the electorate that voted for them back in 2002 are fast disappearing and have been replaced with bitter young male failures with no future and generally the mono-principled peasants who support them purely and PURELY because they are 'men of the book'.
There was a famous Turkish writer who said that 60% of the Turkish population are idiots. He was threatened to great degrees until he 'repealed' his view. I think that where politics is concerned 60% of the GLOBAL population are idiots.
Look, you evidently hold your views on a humanitarian basis and are not propelled by some ulterior motive and harbour no hidden agendas. That is admirable, but I simply urge you not to by default oppose what initially seems like 'same old western imperialism' without fully grasping the intentions and motivations behind the vast majority of those it is in conflict with.
