Something I Have Been Thinking About | INFJ Forum

Something I Have Been Thinking About

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Faye, Jun 3, 2009.

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  1. Faye

    Faye ^_^
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    Constantly we are face with moral decisions, and ultimately we, upon self-examination, are presented with a dilemma. Do we want to be relatively good people, who do not deceive others, who do not live in falsehood, who do not fear what others think, or do we want to be relatively bad people, who deceive others, lie, cheat, and live in constant fear of pain and losing security. Simply put, do we want to give in to the corruption in the system and exploit others out of fear, or do we want to fit into the system only if we can find a position that is in line with our ideals?

    I am wondering this because I get the impression, mostly from my experiences, that INFJs are fairly idealistic people and fairly self-aware people, and we try, more so than others I think, to live by these ideals. Of course, you can make the argument that our ideals are simply different from the ideals of others, but of course you realize that our ideals tend to place greater emphasis on others due to our tendency to internalize things.

    Of course, this can apply to all types, not just INFJ, but I was wondering if it might apply to INFJs in particular. You see, I am having this kind of dilemma, and I have for a long time. I find it very difficult to fit into any human system (which is a relationship) willingly, and if given the choice I usually opt out. This is because I often see the corruption in it. I am not particularly involved in politics or religion. I find the business world repulisve, and I recently refused a job that would have required me to lie to people (of course I am at luxury to do this, many people really need the moeny). I also find it difficult to go into relationships knowing that relationships are power struggles. So you can see my problem.

    So what I have been wondering- my theory- is that perhaps the reason there are so few INFJs is that over the course of thousands of years, as humanity became particularly more violent and corrupt, people who have this kind of self-awareness and inclination for social justice stopped surviving as well relative to other types. I realize that even if we make up on 1% of the population, that is over 70,000,000 INFJs world wide, but that is still relatively less.

    My question is basically this: Are YOU less willing than others to do something that we would essentially describe as evil (exploit others, begin wars, steal, lie, cheat, murder, whatever it takes) to get ahead. I am wondering if we are too weak to take a fair share of the pie, so we are getting left behind because we care about others.

    And we all face this decision of what kind of person we want to be, even if the cost is themselves. For me, it is fairly simple- I would rather die than go against my ideals. What about you?


    [Yes, I left out the issue of involvement with others, but I don't really know how to address that.]
     
  2. Poetic Justice

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    I've had this theory myself. Imagine we are all back in cavemen times, you're starving and and you come across another caveman who's got a big juicy boar roasting over a fire. Most people would bash him over the head and take the meat. An INFJ would be happy for him that at least someone had some food, then of course we would starve. And no women would mate with us because we couldn't provide for them (I also think this is why most women are attracted to bastards). we are fundamentally flawed, not sharing most people's biggest flaw, is our biggest flaw. Our gift is also our curse.

    I really couldn't see a way out of this because I too wasn't willing to sacrifice my values for personal gain. I got over this by doing voluntary work for a charity which turned into a full time job. There is much less of the issues of getting ahead in our sector. Most people are really nice, and it is all about helping the underdog. so even when mildy underhanded tactics are used, it is with the goal of helping people as much as possible. so it balances out
     
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  3. Tamagochi

    Tamagochi Sushi Destroyer
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    a short answer would "yes" - I am very determined to live my life according to internal morals and have been called overly idealistic by other people repeatedly. But it does not hinder me anymore as it used 10 years ago.

    Your conclusion is too hasty, because this very thing can also be perceived as great strength instead of weakness. It's difficult to explain for me, but seek out ENFJs - they are living masters of it. Or read the book I have recommended in your previous thread - it explains A LOT.
     
  4. Eniko

    Eniko May snark if provoked
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    I object to the portrayal of INFJs in this thread as somehow weak and inept. I don't know about anyone else here but if there's one thing I am not it's weak, and if it's what I really had to do I would punch, kick, fight, scratch and bite to get by. Heck, I have.

    My theory is that INFJs are easy going and relaxed and often withdraw from "hard" situations because we find them naturally distasteful. Modern society affords us the luxury of doing that, but I think most INFJs have incredible inner strength and reserves of willpowers and the kind of blind-eyed fury when backed into a corner required to survive and do quite well for themselves in a dog eat dog world. It just doesn't come out until we've exhausted all other options.

    Personally, extrapolating from how I am, I'd rather cross most types before crossing an INFJ.
     
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  5. slant

    slant Ruboobie

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    When it comes to this question, I have a difficulty acting on any sort of moral compass. I usually outrule it because it is a decision based on morals rather than objective observation. I'm sure I am just a likely to do anything; the thing is that I don't think that certain things are 'evil' or 'good'. That seems to be black and white thinking as well as categorization as well as a mental prison that churches use to control the masses.
     
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  6. Poetic Justice

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    Nobody is saying INFJ's are weak or inept. what is being said is that we aren't willing to break our moral code for personal gain. I am certainly not weak. If I see someone being taken advantage of or abused in some way, then I am guaranteed to stand up to that person, I have even been known to become violent if there is no other way to stop the behaviour I disagree with.

    The talk of this being a flaw was in evolutionary terms. In this context it undoubtably IS a flaw. read dragons original post again and I'm sure you will understand
     
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  7. Eniko

    Eniko May snark if provoked
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    I didn't misunderstand actually. Evolutionary weakness is still weakness. Not being able to do what it takes to ensure your own survival and the survival of those you care about is still weakness, and I strongly disagree with that being true.

    An INFJ wouldn't pass up another caveman with food if they were starving and go "good for him", the INFJ would go for the food if they needed it enough. I disagree with saying we're cursed or flawed or "just too damn nice", since when push comes to shove an INFJ would do what it takes just like everyone else, and might just do it with more resolve and tenacity than some.
     
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  8. Poetic Justice

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    When everybody is cheating to get the biggest piece of pie. The person who doesn't cheat gets the smallest piece.
     
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  9. Eniko

    Eniko May snark if provoked
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    Sure enough. The question isn't if we get the smaller piece of the pie, it's whether or not that pie is enough. And I can assure you if it isn't enough then the INFJ will do what it takes, even if it does involve cheating, to get a piece of the pie large enough.

    We're talking survival here, not if INFJs will settle for less because they're less prone to stomp all over their own moral code and dislike doing bad things and conflict.
     
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  10. Poetic Justice

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    I honestly couldn't say if I would rob someone of their last bit of food and leave them to starve in order to survive myself. I think that sort of decision is the definition of hell for an INFJ. However, the point still stands that we wouldn't go that extra mile to get ahead, and when there are so many people who are willing to do that, we are at a disadvantage
     
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  11. Eniko

    Eniko May snark if provoked
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    I would. If I'm starving that person with the food is no longer "someone who is also starving" I can empathize with. They're my enemy, and taking what they have is the key to my own survival. Yay for black and white thinking!

    Maybe I'm just a particularly ruthless INFJ. :tongue:
     
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  12. Poetic Justice

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    It certainly has it's uses.
     
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  13. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    The question you'd first have to answer is:

    Is MBTI genetically influenced? It wouldn't matter if INFJs didn't survive if this was not the case.

    And to answer the question: I don't break my values. I would never have taken that job you were offered if it required lying to people. I'd never take a job that I'd have to kill anything at all. The current company I'm at I hate their ethics a lot, and I'm looking to leave asap (luckily my position requires nothing immoral from me).
     
  14. Tamagochi

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    I'm more with Eniko on that. From my own experience if it comes to a question of survival or a serious threat then there is no more "nice guy" from me. It's like a ruthless fighter awakens somewhere deep inside and takes over. I would demand my share of the pie in a very intimidating way. But it may be not type related - just something mother nature has installed to ensure the survival.
     
  15. yepunsarang

    yepunsarang Community Member

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    Ahh...this sounds like something I think about very often. And usually, after these moments, I start agonizing over the corruption of man and begin to HATE humans in general. :p hahahaha so ironic ain't it? First I love all humanity with my huge ability to empathize, but then I get hurt and terrorized by the truth of things, and get frustrated.

    But of course after chilling-out for a bit, i come to my INFJ senses and calm down. Yes---idealism. That's a whole chunk of who I am. One thing I tell my closest friends is, "If you see me go down into the darkness and become existential, you'll know that i've died. Slap me."

    Nonetheless, as an idealist to heart and a true "realistic optimist", I DO believe there is a way to live without having to submit your ideals. There IS way to live according to what you believe without having to wave a white flag. It just takes balance, acceptance of reality, and deep thought.

    I am sorry I cannot offer you the full solution because i think it is something we all (as INFJs) must figure out throughout our lives. But this balance is in my list of long term goals. I want to live my life this way...I get the weird feeling though, that there will be plenty of people (yes, even some INFJs :( ) who give up, go over "to the other side", and all.

    But as INFJs with this rare stubbornness for morality, I do hope that we will not give up. There's a reason why we've got a "J" in our mbti. We're idealistic, but realistic at the same time. I hope that gets us far...
     
  16. blueflame

    blueflame Regular Poster

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    Maybe some people were misperceiving the initial statement a little bit at first. I think they almost completely focused on survival in terms of desperation, than on the general question of are we that "pure" and selfless as INFJs or is it based on certain circumstances that we display our unusual level of stability and role of the voice of reason. I actually find it almost impossible to break my moral code even if I considered it, I couldn't go through with it.
     
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  17. amplified83

    amplified83 Regular Poster

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    I think that if I was forced to choose between hurting someone else to get what I want or go without, I would go without if I had the ability to. If I didn't have the ability, then I guess it would depend on how badly I would end up hurting the person and if I thought there was a way to change the "problem" and make things easier for everybody involved. Needless to say, if I was forced to hurt someone else for whichever reason, I would feel like shit and beat myself up for a very long time afterwards.
     
  18. overainbows

    overainbows Regular Poster

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    I'm an INTP and I can relate to the OP.

    I don't think the evolutionist theory is totally off, but I think types have more to do with environment than with genetics. Surely, people like us don't have much chance of surviving and having success or happiness as others types, on the other hand we don't suffer that much about not succeeding because we don't value the things society usually do and that's part of the reason why we don't fit socially. (...)

    Answering the question, I end up living by my ideals as much as I can, sometimes for necessity I have to cross over them, but I'm not good at doing things I don't believe in and I end up failling at it.
     
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  19. TaylorS

    TaylorS Community Member

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    I disagree strongly with the OP. I think the %s of types can fluctuate to a certain degree from society to society, but for humanity as a whole the % have been fairly constant over time. The majority have been Sensors and the majority have been Extroverts for obvious reasons related to the functioning of society, INxx types have always been uncommon. We were the shamans, the mystics, the prophets, the monks and nuns, the deep thinkers, the philosophers, all rare things.

    I don't think humanity has gotten more violent and corrupt. There very much probably was a phase of increased violence and corruption as early societies developed so much that traditional tribal taboos and rules disintegrated, but this phase is always temporary as socio-cultural innovators, many of them INFJs, helped create new social-religious-ideological systems to fit the new complex societies. Many parts of Africa are going through this phase now.
     
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  20. Poetic Justice

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    This is getting interesting, everyone has a different opinion.

    IN**'s are the rarest types and the types that tend to struggle with the opposite sex, and the most common types are the ES**'s and these are the types that typically do best with the opposite sex. This can't be a coincidence.

    I'm sure there are many reasons as to why there are so few of us, this is almost certainly one of them
     
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