Some arguments for the existence of God | INFJ Forum

Some arguments for the existence of God

LucyJr

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Aug 10, 2013
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This is just for informational purpose only. Those of you who want to debate the arguments in a polite manner, I will gladly try to repond at your objections : )
Here is the link of the original article http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

So, here are some classic arguments for the existence of God, 20 of them!


Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God

The Argument from Change
The Argument from Efficient Causality
The Argument from Time and Contingency
The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
The Design Argument
The Kalam Argument
The Argument from Contingency
The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole
The Argument from Miracles
The Argument from Consciousness
The Argument from Truth
The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God
The Ontological Argument
The Moral Argument
The Argument from Conscience
The Argument from Desire
The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
The Argument from Religious Experience
The Common Consent Argument
Pascal's Wager




In this section you will find arguments of many different kinds for the existence of God. And we make to you, the reader, an initial appeal. We realize that many people, both believers and nonbelievers, doubt that God's existence can be demonstrated or even argued about. You may be one of them. You may in fact have a fairly settled view that it cannot be argued about. But no one can reasonably doubt that attention to these arguments has its place in any book on apologetics. For very many have believed that such arguments are possible, and that some of them actually work.

They have also believed that an effective rational argument for God's existence is an important first step in opening the mind to the possibility of faith–in clearing some of the roadblocks and rubble that prevent people from taking the idea of divine revelation seriously. And in this they have a real point. Suppose our best and most honest reflection on the nature of things led us to see the material universe as self-sufficient and uncaused; to see its form as the result of random motions, devoid of any plan or purpose. Would you then be impressed by reading in an ancient book that there exists a God of love, or that the heavens proclaim his glory? Would you be disposed to take that message seriously? More likely you would excuse yourself from taking seriously anything claimed as a communication from the Creator. As one person put it: I cannot believe that we are children of God, because I cannot believe there is anyone to do the adopting.

It is this sort of cramped and constricted horizon that the proofs presented in this chapter are trying to expand. They are attempts to confront us with the radical insufficiency of what is finite and limited, and to open minds to a level of being beyond it. If they succeed in this–and we can say from experience that some of the proofs do succeed with many people–they can be of very great value indeed.

You may not feel that they are particularly valuable to you. You may be blessed with a vivid sense of God's presence; and that is something for which to be profoundly grateful. But that does not mean you have no obligation to ponder these arguments. For many have not been blessed in that way. And the proofs are designed for them–or some of them at least–to give a kind of help they really need. You may even be asked to provide help.

Besides, are any of us really in so little need of such help as we may claim? Surely in most of us there is something of the skeptic. There is a part of us tempted to believe that nothing is ultimately real beyond what we can see and touch; a part looking for some reason, beyond the assurances of Scripture, to believe that there is more. We have no desire to make exaggerated claims for these demonstrations, or to confuse "good reason" "with scientific proof." But we believe that there are many who want and need the kind of help these proofs offer more than they might at first be willing to admit.

A word about the organization of the arguments. We have organized them into two basic groups: those which take their data from without–cosmological arguments–and those that take it from within–psychological arguments. The group of cosmological arguments begins with our versions of Aquinas's famous "five ways." These are not the simplest of the arguments, and therefore are not the most convincing to many people. Our order is not from the most to the least effective. The first argument, in particular, is quite abstract and difficult.

Not all the arguments are equally demonstrative. One (Pascal's Wager) is not an argument for God at all, but an argument for faith in God as a "wager." Another (the ontological argument) we regard as fundamentally flawed; yet we include it because it is very famous and influential, and may yet be saved by new formulations of it. Others (the argument from miracles, the argument from religious experience and the common consent argument) claim only strong probability, not demonstrative certainty. We have included them because they form a strong part of a cumulative case. We believe that only some of these arguments, taken individually and separately, demonstrate the existence of a being that has some of the properties only God can have (no argument proves all the divine attributes); but all twenty taken together, like twined rope, make a very strong case.


1. The Argument from Change

The material world we know is a world of change. This young woman came to be 5'2", but she was not always that height. The great oak tree before us grew from the tiniest acorn. Now when something comes to be in a certain state, such as mature size, that state cannot bring itself into being. For until it comes to be, it does not exist, and if it does not yet exist, it cannot cause anything.

As for the thing that changes, although it can be what it will become, it is not yet what it will become. It actually exists right now in this state (an acorn); it will actually exist in that state (large oak tree). But it is not actually in that state now. It only has the potentiality for that state.

Now a question: To explain the change, can we consider the changing thing alone, or must other things also be involved? Obviously, other things must be involved. Nothing can give itself what it does not have, and the changing thing cannot have now, already, what it will come to have then. The result of change cannot actually exist before the change. The changing thing begins with only the potential to change, but it needs to be acted on by other things outside if that potential is to be made actual. Otherwise it cannot change.

Nothing changes itself. Apparently self-moving things, like animal bodies, are moved by desire or will–something other than mere molecules. And when the animal or human dies, the molecules remain, but the body no longer moves because the desire or will is no longer present to move it.

Now a further question: Are the other things outside the changing thing also changing? Are its movers also moving? If so, all of them stand in need right now of being acted on by other things, or else they cannot change. No matter how many things there are in the series, each one needs something outside itself to actualize its potentiality for change.

The universe is the sum total of all these moving things, however many there are. The whole universe is in the process of change. But we have already seen that change in any being requires an outside force to actualize it. Therefore, there is some force outside (in addition to) the universe, some real being transcendent to the universe. This is one of the things meant by "God."

Briefly, if there is nothing outside the material universe, then there is nothing that can cause the universe to change. But it does change. Therefore there must be something in addition to the material universe. But the universe is the sum total of all matter, space and time. These three things depend on each other. Therefore this being outside the universe is outside matter, space and time. It is not a changing thing; it is the unchanging Source of change.

2. The Argument from Efficient Causality

We notice that some things cause other things to be (to begin to be, to continue to be, or both). For example, a man playing the piano is causing the music that we hear. If he stops, so does the music.

Now ask yourself: Are all things caused to exist by other things right now? Suppose they are. That is, suppose there is no Uncaused Being, no God. Then nothing could exist right now. For remember, on the no-God hypothesis, all things need a present cause outside of themselves in order to exist. So right now, all things, including all those things which are causing things to be, need a cause. They can give being only so long as they are given being. Everything that exists, therefore, on this hypothesis, stands in need of being caused to exist.

But caused by what? Beyond everything that is, there can only be nothing. But that is absurd: all of reality dependent–but dependent on nothing! The hypothesis that all being is caused, that there is no Uncaused Being, is absurd. So there must be something uncaused, something on which all things that need an efficient cause of being are dependent.

Existence is like a gift given from cause to effect. If there is no one who has the gift, the gift cannot be passed down the chain of receivers, however long or short the chain may be. If everyone has to borrow a certain book, but no one actually has it, then no one will ever get it. If there is no God who has existence by his own eternal nature, then the gift of existence cannot be passed down the chain of creatures and we can never get it. But we do get it; we exist. Therefore there must exist a God: an Uncaused Being who does not have to receive existence like us–and like every other link in the chain of receivers.

Question 1: Why do we need an uncaused cause? Why could there not simply be an endless series of things mutually keeping each other in being?

Reply: This is an attractive hypothesis. Think of a single drunk. He could probably not stand up alone. But a group of drunks, all of them mutually supporting each other, might stand. They might even make their way along the street. But notice: Given so many drunks, and given the steady ground beneath them, we can understand how their stumblings might cancel each other out, and how the group of them could remain (relatively) upright. We could not understand their remaining upright if the ground did not support them–if, for example, they were all suspended several feet above it. And of course, if there were no actual drunks, there would be nothing to understand.

This brings us to our argument. Things have got to exist in order to be mutually dependent; they cannot depend upon each other for their entire being, for then they would have to be, simultaneously, cause and effect of each other. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. That is absurd. The argument is trying to show why a world of caused causes can be given–or can be there–at all. And it simply points out: If this thing can exist only because something else is giving it existence, then there must exist something whose being is not a gift. Otherwise everything would need at the same time to be given being, but nothing (in addition to "everything") could exist to give it. And that means nothing would actually be.

Question 2: Why not have an endless series of caused causes stretching backward into the past? Then everything would be made actual and would actually be–even though their causes might no longer exist.

Reply: First, if the kalam argument (argument 6) is right, there could not exist an endless series of causes stretching backward into the past. But suppose that such a series could exist. The argument is not concerned about the past, and would work whether the past is finite or infinite. It is concerned with what exists right now.

Even as you read this, you are dependent on other things; you could not, right now, exist without them. Suppose there are seven such things. If these seven things did not exist, neither would you. Now suppose that all seven of them depend for their existence right now on still other things. Without these, the seven you now depend on would not exist–and neither would you. Imagine that the entire universe consists of you and the seven sustaining you. If there is nothing besides that universe of changing, dependent things, then the universe–and you as part of it–could not be. For everything that is would right now need to be given being but there would be nothing capable of giving it. And yet you are and it is. So there must in that case exist something besides the universe of dependent things–something not dependent as they are.

And if it must exist in that case, it must exist in this one. In our world there are surely more than seven things that need, right now, to be given being. But that need is not diminished by there being more than seven. As we imagine more and more of them–even an infinite number, if that were possible–we are simply expanding the set of beings that stand in need. And this need–for being, for existence–cannot be met from within the imagined set. But obviously it has been met, since contingent beings exist. Therefore there is a source of being on which our material universe right now depends.


3. The Argument from Time and Contingency

1.We notice around us things that come into being and go out of being. A tree, for example, grows from a tiny shoot, flowers brilliantly, then withers and dies.
2.Whatever comes into being or goes out of being does not have to be; nonbeing is a real possibility.
3.Suppose that nothing has to be; that is, that nonbeing is a real possibility for everything.
4.Then right now nothing would exist. For
5.If the universe began to exist, then all being must trace its origin to some past moment before which there existed–literally–nothing at all. But
6.From nothing nothing comes. So
7.The universe could not have begun.
8.But suppose the universe never began. Then, for the infinitely long duration of cosmic history, all being had the built-in possibility not to be. But
9.If in an infinite time that possibility was never realized, then it could not have been a real possibility at all. So
10.There must exist something which has to exist, which cannot not exist. This sort of being is called necessary.
11.Either this necessity belongs to the thing in itself or it is derived from another. If derived from another there must ultimately exist a being whose necessity is not derived, that is, an absolutely necessary being.
12.This absolutely necessary being is God.

Question1: Even though you may never in fact step outside your house all day, it was possible for you to do so. Why is it impossible that the universe still happens to exist, even though it was possible for it to go out of existence?

Reply: The two cases are not really parallel. To step outside your house on a given day is something that you may or may not choose to do. But if nonbeing is a real possibility for you, then you are the kind of being that cannot last forever. In other words, the possibility of nonbeing must be built-in, "programmed," part of your very constitution, a necessary property. And if all being is like that, then how could anything still exist after the passage of an infinite time? For an infinite time is every bit as long as forever. So being must have what it takes to last forever, that is, to stay in existence for an infinite time. Therefore there must exist within the realm of being something that does not tend to go out of existence. And this sort of being, as Aquinas says, is called "necessary."


4. The Argument from Degrees of Perfection

We notice around us things that vary in certain ways. A shade of color, for example, can be lighter or darker than another, a freshly baked apple pie is hotter than one taken out of the oven hours before; the life of a person who gives and receives love is better than the life of one who does not.

So we arrange some things in terms of more and less. And when we do, we naturally think of them on a scale approaching most and least. For example, we think of the lighter as approaching the brightness of pure white, and the darker as approaching the opacity of pitch black. This means that we think of them at various "distances" from the extremes, and as possessing, in degrees of "more" or "less," what the extremes possess in full measure.

Sometimes it is the literal distance from an extreme that makes all the difference between "more" and "less." For example, things are more or less hot when they are more or less distant from a source of heat. The source communicates to those things the quality of heat they possess in greater or lesser measure. This means that the degree of heat they possess is caused by a source outside of them.

Now when we think of the goodness of things, part of what we mean relates to what they are simply as beings. We believe, for example, that a relatively stable and permanent way of being is better than one that is fleeting and precarious. Why? Because we apprehend at a deep (but not always conscious) level that being is the source and condition of all value; finally and ultimately, being is better than nonbeing. And so we recognize the inherent superiority of all those ways of being that expand possibilities, free us from the constricting confines of matter, and allow us to share in, enrich and be enriched by, the being of other things. In other words, we all recognize that intelligent being is better than unintelligent being; that a being able to give and receive love is better than one that cannot; that our way of being is better, richer and fuller than that of a stone, a flower, an earthworm, an ant, or even a baby seal.

But if these degrees of perfection pertain to being and being is caused in finite creatures, then there must exist a "best," a source and real standard of all the perfections that we recognize belong to us as beings.

This absolutely perfect being–the "Being of all beings," "the Perfection of all perfections"–is God.

Question 1: The argument assumes a real "better." But aren't all our judgments of comparative value merely subjective?

Reply: The very asking of this question answers it. For the questioner would not have asked it unless he or she thought it really better to do so than not, and really better to find the true answer than not. You can speak subjectivism but you cannot live it.


5. The Design Argument

This sort of argument is of wide and perennial appeal. Almost everyone admits that reflection on the order and beauty of nature touches something very deep within us. But are the order and beauty the product of intelligent design and conscious purpose? For theists the answer is yes. Arguments for design are attempts to vindicate this answer, to show why it is the most reasonable one to give. They have been formulated in ways as richly varied as the experience in which they are rooted. The following displays the core or central insight.

The universe displays a staggering amount of intelligibility, both within the things we observe and in the way these things relate to others outside themselves. That is to say: the way they exist and coexist display an intricately beautiful order and regularity that can fill even the most casual observer with wonder. It is the norm in nature for many different beings to work together to produce the same valuable end–for example, the organs in the body work for our life and health. (See also argument 8.)
1.Either this intelligible order is the product of chance or of intelligent design.
2.Not chance.
3.Therefore the universe is the product of intelligent design.
4.Design comes only from a mind, a designer.
5.Therefore the universe is the product of an intelligent Designer.

The first premise is certainly true-even those resistant to the argument admit it. The person who did not would have to be almost pathetically obtuse. A single protein molecule is a thing of immensely impressive order; much more so a single cell; and incredibly much more so an organ like the eye, where ordered parts of enormous and delicate complexity work together with countless others to achieve a single certain end. Even chemical elements are ordered to combine with other elements in certain ways and under certain conditions. Apparent disorder is a problem precisely because of the overwhelming pervasiveness of order and regularity. So the first premise stands.

If all this order is not in some way the product of intelligent design–then what? Obviously, it "just happened." Things just fell out that way "by chance." Alternatively, if all this order is not the product of blind, purposeless forces, then it has resulted from some kind of purpose. That purpose can only be intelligent design. So the second premise stands.

It is of course the third premise that is crucial. Ultimately, nonbelievers tell us, it is indeed by chance and not by any design that the universe of our experience exists the way it does. It just happens to have this order, and the burden of proof is on believers to demonstrate why this could not be so by chance alone.

But this seems a bit backward. It is surely up to nonbelievers to produce a credible alternative to design. And "chance" is simply not credible. For we can understand chance only against a background of order. To say that something happened "by chance" is to say that it did not turn out as we would have expected, or that it did turn out in a way we would not have expected. But expectation is impossible without order. If you take away order and speak of chance alone as a kind of ultimate source, you have taken away the only background that allows us to speak meaningfully of chance at all. Instead of thinking of chance against a background of order, we are invited to think of order-overwhelmingly intricate and ubiquitous order-against a random and purposeless background of chance. Frankly, that is incredible. Therefore it is eminently reasonable to affirm the third premise, not chance, and therefore to affirm the conclusion, that this universe is the product of intelligent design.

Question 1: Hasn't the Darwinian theory of evolution shown us how it is possible for all the order in the universe to have arisen by chance?

Reply: Not at all. If the Darwinian theory has shown anything, it has shown, in a general way, how species may have descended from others through random mutation; and how survival of these species can be accounted for by natural selection–by the fitness of some species to survive in their environment. In no way does it–can it–account for the ubiquitous order and intelligibility of nature. Rather, it presupposes order. To quote a famous phrase: "The survival of the fittest presupposes the arrival of the fit." If Darwinians wish to extrapolate from their purely biological theory and maintain that all the vast order around us is the result of random changes, then they are saying something which no empirical evidence could ever confirm; which no empirical science could ever demonstrate; and which, on the face of it, is simply beyond belief.

Question 2: Maybe it is only in this region of the universe that order is to be found. Maybe there are other parts unknown to us that are completely chaotic–or maybe the universe will one day in the future become chaotic. What becomes of the argument then?

Reply: Believers and nonbelievers both experience the same universe. It is this which is either designed or not. And this world of our common experience is a world of pervasive order and intelligibility. That fact must be faced. Before we speculate about what will be in the future or what may be elsewhere in the present, we need to deal honestly with what is. We need to recognize in an unflinching way the extent–the overwhelming extent–of order and intelligibility. Then we can ask ourselves: Is it credible to suppose that we inhabit a small island of order surrounded by a vast sea of chaos–a sea which threatens one day to engulf us?

Just consider how in the last decades we have strained fantastically at the limits of our knowledge; we have cast our vision far beyond this planet and far within the elements that make it up. And what has this expansion of our horizons revealed? Always the same thing: more–and not less–intelligibility; more–and not less–complex and intricate order. Not only is there no reason to believe in a surrounding chaos, there is every reason not to. It flies in the face of the experience that all of us–believers and nonbelievers–share in common.

Something similar can be said about the future. We know the way things in the universe have behaved and are behaving. And so, until we have some reason to think otherwise, there is every reason to believe it will continue on its orderly path of running down. No speculation can nullify what we know.

And, anyway, exactly what sort of chaos is this question asking us to imagine? That effect precedes cause? That the law of contradiction does not hold? That there need not be what it takes for some existing thing to exist? These suggestions are completely unintelligible; if we think about them at all, it is only to reject them as impossible. Can we imagine less order? Yes. Some rearrangement of the order we experience? Yes. But total disorder and chaos? That can never be considered as a real possibility. To speculate about it as if it were is really a waste of time.

Question 3: But what if the order we experience is merely a product of our minds? Even though we cannot think utter chaos and disorder, maybe that is how reality really is.

Reply: Our minds are the only means by which we can know reality. We have no other access. If we agree that something cannot exist in thought, we cannot go ahead and say that it might nevertheless exist in reality. Because then we would be thinking what we claim cannot be thought.

Suppose you claim that order is just a product of our minds. This puts you in a very awkward position. You are saying that we must think about reality in terms of order and intelligibility, but things may not exist that way in fact. Now to propose something for consideration is to think about it. And so you are saying: (a) we must think about reality in a certain way, but (b) since we think that things may not in fact exist that way, then (c) we need not think about reality the way we must think about it! Are we willing to pay that high a price to deny that the being of the universe displays intelligent design? It does not, on the face of it, seem cost effective.


6. The Kalam Argument

The Arabic word kalam literally means "speech," but came to denote a certain type of philosophical theology–a type containing demonstrations that the world could not be infinitely old and must therefore have been created by God. This sort of demonstration has had a long and wide appeal among both Christians and Muslims. Its form is simple and straightforward.

1.Whatever begins to exist has a cause for its coming into being.
2.The universe began to exist.
3.Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being.

Grant the first premise. (Most people–outside of asylums and graduate schools would consider it not only true, but certainly and obviously true.)

Is the second premise true? Did the universe–the collection of all things bounded by space and time–begin to exist? This premise has recently received powerful support from natural science–from so-called Big Bang Cosmology. But there are philosophical arguments in its favor as well. Can an infinite task ever be done or completed? If, in order to reach a certain end, infinitely many steps had to precede it, could the end ever be reached? Of course not–not even in an infinite time. For an infinite time would be unending, just as the steps would be. In other words, no end would ever be reached. The task would–could–never be completed.

But what about the step just before the end? Could that point ever be reached? Well, if the task is really infinite, then an infinity of steps must also have preceded it. And therefore the step just before the end could also never be reached. But then neither could the step just before that one. In fact, no step in the sequence could be reached, because an infinity of steps must always have preceded any step; must always have been gone through one by one before it. The problem comes from supposing that an infinite sequence could ever reach, by temporal succession, any point at all.

Now if the universe never began, then it always was. If it always was, then it is infinitely old. If it is infinitely old, then an infinite amount of time would have to have elapsed before (say) today. And so an infinite number of days must have been completed–one day succeeding another, one bit of time being added to what went before–in order for the present day to arrive. But this exactly parallels the problem of an infinite task. If the present day has been reached, then the actually infinite sequence of history has reached this present point: in fact, has been completed up to this point–for at any present point the whole past must already have happened. But an infinite sequence of steps could never have reached this present point–or any point before it.

So, either the present day has not been reached, or the process of reaching it was not infinite. But obviously the present day has been reached. So the process of reaching it was not infinite. In other words, the universe began to exist. Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being, a Creator.

Question 1: Christians believe they are going to live forever with God. So they believe the future will be endless. How come the past cannot also be endless?

Reply
: The question really answers itself. Christians believe that their life with God will never end. That means it will never form an actually completed infinite series. In more technical language: an endless future is potentially–but never actually–infinite. This means that although the future will never cease to expand and increase, still its actual extent will always be finite. But that can only be true if all of created reality had a beginning.

Question 2: How do we know that the cause of the universe still exists? Maybe it started the universe going and then ceased to be.

Reply: Remember that we are seeking for a cause of spatio-temporal being. This cause created the entire universe of space and time. And space and time themselves must be part of that creation. So the cause cannot be another spatio-temporal being. (If it were, all the problems about infinite duration would arise once again.) It must somehow stand outside the limitations and constraints of space and time.

It is hard to understand how such a being could "cease" to be. We know how a being within the universe ceases to be: it comes in time to be fatally affected by some agency external to it. But this picture is proper to us, and to all beings limited in some way by space and time. A being not limited in these ways cannot "come" to be or "cease" to be. If it exists at all, it must exist eternally.

Question 3: But is this cause God–a he and not a mere it?

Reply: Suppose the cause of the universe has existed eternally. Suppose further that this cause is not personal: that it has given rise to the universe, not through any choice, but simply through its being. In that case it is hard to see how the universe could be anything but infinitely old, since all the conditions needed for the being of the universe would exist from all eternity. But the kalam argument has shown that the universe cannot be infinitely old. So the hypothesis of an eternal impersonal cause seems to lead to an inconsistency.

Is there a way out? Yes, if the universe is the result of a free personal choice. Then at least we have some way of seeing how an eternal cause could give rise to a temporally limited effect. Of course, the kalam argument does not prove everything Christians believe about God, but what proof does? Less than everything, however, is far from nothing. And the kalam argument proves something central to the Christian belief in God: that the universe is not eternal and without beginning; that there is a Maker of heaven and earth. And in doing so, it disproves the picture of the universe most atheists wish to maintain: self-sustaining matter, endlessly changing in endless time.


7. The Argument from Contingency

The basic form of this argument is simple.

1.If something exists, there must exist what it takes for that thing to exist.
2.The universe–the collection of beings in space and time–exists.
3.Therefore, there must exist what it takes for the universe to exist.
4.What it takes for the universe to exist cannot exist within the universe or be bounded by space and time.
5.Therefore, what it takes for the universe to exist must transcend both space and time.

Suppose you deny the first premise. Then if X exists, there need not exist what it takes for X to exist. But "what it takes for X to exist" means the immediate condition(s) for X's existence. You mean that X exists only if Y. Without Y, there can be no X. So the denial of premise 1 amounts to this: X exists; X can only exist if Y exists; and Y does not exist. This is absurd. So there must exist what it takes for the universe to exist. But what does it take?

We spoke of the universe as "the collection of beings in space and time." Consider one such being: yourself. You exist, and you are, in part at least, material. This means that you are a finite, limited and changing being, you know that right now, as you read this book, you are dependent for your existence on beings outside you. Not your parents or grandparents. They may no longer be alive, but you exist now. And right now you depend on many things in order to exist–for example, on the air you breathe. To be dependent in this way is to be contingent. You exist if something else right now exists.

But not everything can be like this. For then everything would need to be given being, but there would be nothing capable of giving it. There would not exist what it takes for anything to exist. So there must be something that does not exist conditionally; something which does not exist only if something else exists; something which exists in itself. What it takes for this thing to exist could only be this thing itself. Unlike changing material reality, there would be no distance, so to speak, between what this thing is and that it is. Obviously the collection of beings changing in space and time cannot be such a thing. Therefore, what it takes for the universe to exist cannot be identical with the universe itself or with a part of the universe.

Question 1: But why should we call this cause "God"? Maybe there is something unknown that grounds the universe of change we live in.

Reply: True. And this "unknown" is God. What we humans know directly is this sensible changing world. We also know that there must exist whatever it takes for something to exist. Therefore, we know that neither this changing universe as a whole nor any part of it can be itself what it takes for the universe to exist. But we have now such direct knowledge of the cause of changing things. We know that there must exist a cause; we know that this cause cannot be finite or material–that it must transcend such limitations. But what this ultimate cause is in itself remains, so far, a mystery.

There is more to be said by reason; and there is very much more God has made known about himself through revelation. But the proofs have given us some real knowledge as well: knowledge that the universe is created; knowledge that right now it is kept in being by a cause unbounded by any material limit, that transcends the kind of being we humans directly know. And that is surely knowledge worth having. We might figure out that someone's death was murder and no accident, without figuring out exactly who did it and why, and this might leave us frustrated and unsatisfied. But at least we would know what path of questioning to pursue; at least we would know that someone did it.

So it is with the proofs. They let us know that at every moment the being of the universe is the creative act of a Giver–A Giver transcending all material and spiritual limitations. Beyond that, they do not tell us much about what or who this Giver is–but they point in a very definite direction. We know that this Ultimate Reality–the Giver of being–cannot be material. And we know the gift which is given includes personal being: intelligence, will and spirit. The infinite transcendent cause of these things cannot be less than they are, but must be infinitely more. How and in what way we do not know. To some extent this Giver must always remain unknown to human reason. We should never expect otherwise. But reason can at least let us know that "someone did it." And that is of great value.


8. The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole


Norris Clarke, who taught metaphysics and philosophy of religion for many years at Fordham, has circulated privately an intriguing version of the design argument. We present it here, slightly abridged and revised; for your reflection.

Starting point. This world is given to us as a dynamic, ordered system of many active component elements. Their natures (natural properties) are ordered to interact with each other in stable, reciprocal relationships which we call physical laws. For example, every hydrogen atom in our universe is ordered to combine with every oxygen atom in the proportion of 2:1 (which implies that every oxygen atom is reciprocally ordered to combine with every hydrogen atom in the proportion of 1:2). So it is with the chemical valences of all the basic elements. So too all particles with mass are ordered to move toward every other according to the fixed proportions of the law of gravity.

In such an interconnected, interlocking, dynamic system, the active nature of each component is defined by its relation with others, and so presupposes the others for its own intelligibility and ability to act. Contemporary science reveals to us that our world-system is not merely an aggregate of many separate, unrelated laws, but rather a tightly interlocking whole, where relationship to the whole structures and determines the parts. The parts can no longer be understood apart from the whole; its influence permeates them all.

Argument. In any such system as the above (like our world) no component part or active element can be self-sufficient or self-explanatory. For any part presupposes all the other parts–the whole system already in place–to match its own relational properties. It can't act unless the others are there to interact reciprocally with it. Any one part could be self-sufficient only if it were the cause of the whole rest of the system–which is impossible, since no part can act except in collaboration with the others.

Nor can the system as a whole explain its own existence, since it is made up of the component parts and is not a separate being, on its own, independent of them. So neither the parts nor the whole are self-sufficient; neither can explain the actual existence of this dynamically interactive system.

Three Conclusions

Since the parts make sense only within the whole, and neither the whole nor the parts can explain their own existence, then such a system as our world requires a unifying efficient cause to posit it in existence as a unified whole.
Any such cause must be an intelligent cause, one that brings the system into being according to a unifying idea. For the unity of the whole–and of each one of the overarching, cosmic-wide, physical laws uniting elements under themselves–is what determines and correlates the parts. Hence it must be somehow actually present as an effective organizing factor. But the unity, the wholeness, of the whole transcends any one part, and therefore cannot be contained in any one part. To be actually present all at once as a whole this unity can only be the unity of an organizing unifying idea. For only an idea can hold together many different elements at once without destroying or fusing their distinctness. That is almost the definition of an idea. Since the actual parts are spread out over space and time, the only way they can be together at once as an intelligible unity is within an idea. Hence the system of the world as a whole must live first within the unity of an idea.
Now a real idea cannot actually exist and be effectively operative save in a real mind, which has the creative power to bring such a system into real existence. Hence the sufficient reason for our ordered world-system must ultimately be a creative ordering Mind. A cosmic-wide order requires a cosmic-wide Orderer, which can only be a Mind.
Such an ordering Mind must be independent of the system itself, that is, transcendent; not dependent on the system for its own existence and operation. For if it were dependent on–or part of–the system, it would have to presuppose the latter as already existing in order to operate, and would thus have to both precede and follow itself. But this is absurd. Hence it must exist and be able to operate prior to and independent of the system.
Thus our material universe necessarily requires, as the sufficient reason for its actual existence as an operating whole, a Transcendent Creative Mind.


9. The Argument from Miracles

1.A miracle is an event whose only adequate explanation is the extraordinary and direct intervention of God.
2.There are numerous well-attested miracles.
3.Therefore, there are numerous events whose only adequate explanation is the extraordinary and direct intervention of God.
4.Therefore God exists.

Obviously if you believe that some extraordinary event is a miracle, then you believe in divine agency, and you believe that such agency was at work in this event. But the question is: Was this event a miracle? If miracles exist, then God must exist. But do miracles exist?



Which events do we choose? In the first place, the event must be extraordinary. But there are many extraordinary happenings (e.g., numerous stones dropping from the sky in Texas) that do not qualify as miracles. Why not? First, because they could be caused by something in nature, and second, because the context in which they occur is not religious. They qualify as mere oddities, as "strange happenings"; the sort of thing you might expect to read in Believe It or Not, but never hear about from the pulpit. Therefore the meaning of the event must also be religious to qualify as a miracle.

Suppose that a holy man had stood in the center of Houston and said: "My dear brothers and sisters! You are leading sinful lives! Look at yourselves–drunken! dissolute! God wants you to repent! And as a sign of his displeasure he's going to shower stones upon you!" Then, moments later–thunk! thunk! thunk!–the stones began to fall. The word "miracle" might very well spring to mind.

Not that we would have to believe in God after witnessing this event. But still, if that man in Texas seemed utterly genuine, and if his accusations hit home, made us think "He's right," then it would be very hard to consider what happened a deception or even an extraordinary coincidence.

This means that the setting of a supposed miracle is crucially important. Not just the physical setting, and not just the timing, but the personal setting is vital as well–the character and the message of the person to whom this event is specially tied. Take, for example, four or five miracles from the New Testament. Remove them completely from their context, from the teaching and character of Christ. Would it be wrong to see their religious significance as thereby greatly diminished? After all, to call some happening a miracle is to interpret it religiously. But to interpret it that way demands a context or setting which invites such interpretation. And part of this setting usually, though not always, involves a person whose moral authority is first recognized, and whose religious authority, which the miracle seems to confirm, is then acknowledged.

Abstract discussions of probability usually miss this factor. But setting does play a decisive role. Many years ago, at an otherwise dull convention, a distinguished philosopher explained why he had become a Christian. He said: "I picked up the New Testament with a view to judging it, to weighing its pros and cons. But as I began to read, I realized that I was the one being judged." Certainly he came to believe in the miracle-stories. But it was the character and teaching of Christ that led him to accept the things recounted there as genuine acts of God.

So there is not really a proof from miracles. If you see some event as a miracle, then the activity of God is seen in this event. There is a movement of the mind from this event to its proper interpretation as miraculous. And what gives impetus to that movement is not just the event by itself, but the many factors surrounding it which invite–or seem to demand–such interpretation.

But miraculous events exist. Indeed, there is massive, reliable testimony to them across many times, places and cultures.

Therefore their cause exists.

And their only adequate cause is God.

Therefore God exists.

The argument is not a proof, but a very powerful clue or sign. (For further discussion, see chap. 5 on miracles from Handbook of Christian Apologetics.External link (opens new window))


10. The Argument from Consciousness

When we experience the tremendous order and intelligibility in the universe, we are experiencing something intelligence can grasp. Intelligence is part of what we find in the world. But this universe is not itself intellectually aware. As great as the forces of nature are, they do not know themselves. Yet we know them and ourselves. These remarkable facts–the presence of intelligence amidst unconscious material processes, and the conformity of those processes to the structure of conscious intelligence–have given rise to a variation on the first argument for design.

1.We experience the universe as intelligible. This intelligibility means that the universe is graspable by intelligence.
2.Either this intelligible universe and the finite minds so well suited to grasp it are the products of intelligence, or both intelligibility and intelligence are the products of blind chance.
3.Not blind chance.
4.Therefore this intelligible universe and the finite minds so well suited to grasp it are the products of intelligence.

There are obvious similarities here to the design argument, and many of the things we said to defend that argument could be used to defend this one too. For now we want to focus our attention on step 3.

Readers familiar with C. S. Lewis's Miracles will remember the powerful argument he made in chapter three against what he called "naturalism": the view that everything–including our thinking and judging–belongs to one vast interlocking system of physical causes and effects. If naturalism is true, Lewis argued, then it seems to leave us with no reason for believing it to be true; for all judgments would equally and ultimately be the result of nonrational forces.

Now this line of reflection has an obvious bearing on step 3. What we mean by "blind chance" is the way physical nature must ultimately operate if "naturalism" is true–void of any rational plan or guiding purpose. So if Lewis's argument is a good one, then step 3 stands: blind chance cannot be the source of our intelligence.

We were tempted, when preparing this section, to quote the entire third chapter of Miracles. This sort of argument is not original to Lewis, but we have never read a better statement of it than his, and we urge you to consult it. But we have found a compelling, and admirably succinct version (written almost twenty years before Miracles) in H. W. B. Joseph's Some Problems in Ethics (Oxford University Press, 1931). Joseph was an Oxford don, senior to Lewis, with whose writings Lewis was certainly familiar. And undoubtedly this statement of the argument influenced Lewis's later, more elaborate version.

If thought is laryngeal motion, how should any one think more truly than the wind blows? All movements of bodies are equally necessary, but they cannot be discriminated as true and false. It seems as nonsensical to call a movement true as a flavour purple or a sound avaricious. But what is obvious when thought is said to be a certain bodily movement seems equally to follow from its being the effect of one. Thought called knowledge and thought called error are both necessary results of states of brain. These states are necessary results of other bodily states. All the bodily states are equally real, and so are the different thoughts; but by what right can I hold that my thought is knowledge of what is real in bodies? For to hold so is but another thought, an effect of real bodily movements like the rest. . . These arguments, however, of mine, if the principles of scientific [naturalism]... are to stand unchallenged, are themselves no more than happenings in a mind, results of bodily movements; that you or I think them sound, or think them unsound, is but another such happening; that we think them no more than another such happening is itself but yet another such. And it may be said of any ground on which we may attempt to stand as true, Labitur et labetur in omne volubilis aevum ["It flows and will flow swirling on forever" (Horace, Epistles, I, 2, 43)]. (Some Problems in Ethics, pp. 14–15)


11. The Argument from Truth

This argument is closely related to the argument from consciousness. It comes mainly from Augustine.

1.Our limited minds can discover eternal truths about being.
2.Truth properly resides in a mind.
3.But the human mind is not eternal.
4.Therefore there must exist an eternal mind in which these truths reside.

This proof might appeal to someone who shares a Platonic view of knowledge–who, for example, believes that there are Eternal Intelligible Forms which are present to the mind in every act of knowledge. Given that view, it is a very short step to see these Eternal Forms as properly existing within an Eternal Mind. And there is a good deal to be said for this. But that is just the problem. There is too much about the theory of knowledge that needs to be said before this could work as a persuasive demonstration.


12. The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God


This argument, made famous by Rene Descartes, has a kinship to the ontological argument (13). It starts from the idea of God. But it does not claim that real being is part of the content of that idea, as the ontological argument does. Rather it seeks to show that only God himself could have caused this idea to arise in our minds.

It would be impossible for us to reproduce the whole context Descartes gives for this proof (see his third Meditation), and fruitless to follow his scholastic vocabulary. We give below the briefest summary and discussion.

1.We have ideas of many things.
2.These ideas must arise either from ourselves or from things outside us.
3.One of the ideas we have is the idea of God–an infinite, all-perfect being.
4.This idea could not have been caused by ourselves, because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect, and no effect can be greater than its cause.
5.Therefore, the idea must have been caused by something outside us which has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.
6.But only God himself has those qualities.
7.Therefore God himself must be the cause of the idea we have of him.
8.Therefore God exists.

Consider the following common objection. The idea of God can easily arise like this: we notice degrees of perfection among finite beings–some are more perfect (or less imperfect) than others. And to reach the idea of God, we just project the scale upward and outward to infinity. Thus there seems to be no need for an actually existing God to account for the existence of the idea. All we need is the experience of things varying in degrees of perfection, and a mind capable of thinking away perceived limitations.

But is that really enough? How can we think away limitation or imperfection unless we first recognize it as such? And how can we recognize it as such unless we already have some notion of infinite perfection? To recognize things as imperfect or finite involves the possession of a standard in thought that makes the recognition possible.

Does that seem farfetched? It does not mean that toddlers spend their time thinking about God. But it does mean that, however late in life you use the standard, however long before it comes explicitly into consciousness, still, the standard must be there in order for you to use it. But where did it come from? Not from your experience of yourself or of the world that exists outside you. For the idea of infinite perfection is already presupposed in our thinking about all these things and judging them imperfect. Therefore none of them can be the origin of the idea of God; only God himself can be that.


13. The Ontological Argument

The ontological argument was devised by Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109), who wanted to produce a single, simple demonstration which would show that God is and what God is. Single it may be, but far from simple. It is, perhaps, the most controversial proof for the existence of God. Most people who first hear it are tempted to dismiss it immediately as an interesting riddle, but distinguished thinkers of every age, including our own, have risen to defend it. For this very reason it is the most intensely philosophical proof for God's existence; its place of honor is not within popular piety, but rather textbooks and professional journals. We include it, with a minimum of discussion, not because we think it conclusive or irrefutable, but for the sake of completeness.

Anselm's Version

It is greater for a thing to exist in the mind and in reality than in the mind alone.
"God" means "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
Suppose that God exists in the mind but not in reality.
Then a greater than God could be thought (namely, a being that has all the qualities our thought of God has plus real existence).
But this is impossible, for God is "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
Therefore God exists in the mind and in reality.

Question 1: Suppose I deny that God exists in the mind?

Reply: In that case the argument could not conclude that God exists in the mind and in reality. But note: the denial commits you to the view that there is no concept of God. And very few would wish to go that far.

Question 2: Is it really greater for something to exist in the mind and in reality than in the mind alone?

Reply: The first premise of this argument is often misunderstood. People sometimes say: "Isn't an imaginary disease better than a real one?" Well it certainly is better–and so a greater thing–for you that the disease is not real. But that strengthens Anselm's side of the argument. Real bacteria are greater than imaginary ones, just because they have something that imaginary ones lack: real being. They have an independence, and therefore an ability to harm, that nothing can have whose existence is wholly dependent on your thought. It is this greater level of independence that makes them greater as beings. And that line of thinking does not seem elusive or farfetched.

Question 3: But is real being just another "thought" or "concept"? Is "real being" just one more concept or characteristic (like "omniscience" or "omnipotence") that could make a difference to the kind of being God is?

Reply: Real being does make a real difference. The question is: Does it make a conceptual difference? Critics of the argument say that it does not. They say that just because real being makes all the difference it cannot be one more quality among others. Rather it is the condition of there being something there to have any qualities at all. When the proof says that God is the greatest being that can be "thought," it means that there are various perfections or qualities that God has to a degree no creature possibly could, qualities that are supremely admirable. But to say that such a being exists is to say that there really is something which is supremely admirable. And that is not one more admirable quality among others.

Is it greater to exist in reality as well as in the mind? Of course, incomparably greater. But the difference is not a conceptual one. And yet the argument seems to treat it as if it were–as if the believer and the nonbeliever could not share the same concept of God. Clearly they do. They disagree not about the content of this concept, but about whether the kind of being it describes really exists. And that seems beyond the power of merely conceptual analysis, as used in this argument, to answer. So question 3, we think, really does invalidate this form of the ontological argument.

Modal Version

Charles Hartshorne and Norman Malcolm developed this version of the ontological argument. Both find it implicitly contained in the third chapter of Anselm's Proslogion.

The expression "that being than which a greater cannot be thought" (GCB, for short) expresses a consistent concept.
GCB cannot be thought of as: a. necessarily nonexistent; or as b. contingently existing but only as c. necessarily existing.
So GCB can only be thought of as the kind of being that cannot not exist, that must exist.
But what must be so is so.
Therefore, GCB (i.e., God) exists.

Question: Just because GCB must be thought of as existing, does that mean that GCB really exists?

Reply: If you must think of something as existing, you cannot think of it as not existing. But then you cannot deny that GCB exists; for then you are thinking what you say cannot be thought–namely, that GCB does not exist.

Possible Worlds Version

This variation on the modal version has been worked out in great detail by Alvin Plantinga. We have done our best to simplify it.

Definitions:

Maximal excellence: To have omnipotence, omniscience and moral perfection in some world.

Maximal greatness: To have maximal excellence in every possible world.

1.There is a possible world (W) in which there is a being (X) with maximal greatness.
2.But X is maximally great only if X has maximal excellence in every possible world.
3.Therefore X is maximally great only if X has omnipotence, omniscience and moral perfection in every possible world.
4.In W, the proposition "There is no omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect being" would be impossible–that is, necessarily false.
5.But what is impossible does not vary from world to world.
6.Therefore, the proposition, "There is no omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect being" is necessarily false in this actual world, too.
7.Therefore, there actually exists in this world, and must exist in every possible world, an omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect being.

(note: this is based on the modal axiom S5, which supposedly contains a contradiction, but this view is not generally accepted. Plus, the argument is based on metaphysical necessity. The conclusion relies on a form of modal axiom S5, which states that if something is possibly true, then its possibility is necessary (it is possibly true in all worlds). Plantinga's S5 also states that if something is possibly necessarily true, then it is necessarily true (it is true in all worlds). In other words: If something is not inherently contradictory (i.e. it is possibly true), then it is possibly true in all worlds (including the actual world).)


14. The Moral Argument

1.Real moral obligation is a fact. We are really, truly, objectively obligated to do good and avoid evil.
2.Either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the "religious" one.
3.But the atheistic one is incompatible with there being moral obligation.
4.Therefore the "religious" view of reality is correct.

We need to be clear about what the first premise is claiming. It does not mean merely that we can find people around who claim to have certain duties. Nor does it mean that there have been many people who thought they were obliged to do certain things (like clothing the naked) and to avoid doing others (like committing adultery). The first premise is claiming something more: namely, that we human beings really are obligated; that our duties arise from the way things really are, and not simply from our desires or subjective dispositions. It is claiming, in other words, that moral values or obligations themselves–and not merely the belief in moral values–are objective facts.

Now given the fact of moral obligation, a question naturally arises. Does the picture of the world presented by atheism accord with this fact? The answer is no. Atheists never tire of telling us that we are the chance products of the motion of matter–a motion which is purposeless and blind to every human striving. We should take them at their word and ask: Given this picture, in what exactly is the moral good rooted? Moral obligation can hardly be rooted in a material motion blind to purpose.

Suppose we say it is rooted in nothing deeper than human willing and desire. In that case, we have no moral standard against which human desires can be judged. For every desire will spring from the same ultimate source–purposeless, pitiless matter. And what becomes of obligation? According to this view, if I say there is an obligation to feed the hungry, I would be stating a fact about my wants and desires and nothing else. I would be saying that I want the hungry to be fed, and that I choose to act on that desire. But this amounts to an admission that neither I nor anyone else is really obliged to feed the hungry–that, in fact, no one has any real obligations at all. Therefore the atheistic view of reality is not compatible with there being genuine moral obligation.

What view is compatible? One that sees real moral obligation as grounded in its Creator, that sees moral obligation as rooted in the fact that we have been created with a purpose and for an end. We may call this view, with deliberate generality, "the religious view." But however general the view, reflection on the fact of moral obligation does seem to confirm it.

Question 1: The argument has not shown that ethical subjectivism is false. What if there are no objective values?

Reply: True enough. The argument assumes that there are objective values; it aims to show that believing in them is incompatible with one picture of the world, and quite compatible with another. Those two pictures are the atheistic-materialistic one, and the (broadly speaking) religious one. Granted, if ethical subjectivism is true, then the argument does not work. However, almost no one is a consistent subjectivist. (Many think they are, and say they are–until they suffer violence or injustice. In that case they invariably stand with the rest of us in recognizing that certain things ought never to be done.) And for the many who are not–and never will be–subjectivists, the argument can be most helpful. It can show them that to believe as they do in objective values is inconsistent with what they may also believe about the origin and destiny of the universe. If they move to correct the inconsistency, it will be a move toward the religious view and away from the atheistic one.

Question 2: This proof does not conclude to God but to some vague "religious" view. Isn't this "religious" view compatible with very much more than traditional theism?

Reply: Yes indeed. It is compatible, for example, with Platonic idealism, and many other beliefs that orthodox Christians find terribly deficient. But this general religious view is incompatible with materialism, and with any view that banishes value from the ultimate objective nature of things. That is the important point. It seems most reasonable that moral conscience is the voice of God within the soul, because moral value exists only on the level of persons, minds and wills. And it is hard, if not impossible, to conceive of objective moral principles somehow floating around on their own, apart from any persons.

But we grant that there are many steps to travel from objective moral values to the Creator of the universe or the triune God of love. There is a vast intellectual distance between them. But these things are compatible in a way that materialism and belief in objective values are not. To reach a personal Creator you need other arguments (cf. arguments 1-6), and to reach the God of love you need revelation. By itself, the argument leaves many options open, and eliminates only some. But we are surely well rid of those it does eliminate.

Another form, much more popular today, is William Lane Craig's version of moral argument. It goes as following:



1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

Check this page for more info on this argument:http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument


15. The Argument from Conscience

Since moral subjectivism is very popular today, the following version of, or twist to, the moral argument should be effective, since it does not presuppose moral objectivism. Modern people often say they believe that there are no universally binding moral obligations, that we must all follow our own private conscience. But that very admission is enough of a premise to prove the existence of God.

Isn't it remarkable that no one, even the most consistent subjectivist, believes that it is ever good for anyone to deliberately and knowingly disobey his or her own conscience? Even if different people's consciences tell them to do or avoid totally different things, there remains one moral absolute for everyone: never disobey your own conscience.

Now where did conscience get such an absolute authority–an authority admitted even by the moral subjectivist and relativist? There are only four possibilities.

1.From something less than me (nature)
2.From me (individual)
3.From others equal to me (society)
4.From something above me (God)

Let's consider each of these possibilities in order.

How can I be absolutely obligated by something less than me–for example, by animal instinct or practical need for material survival?
How can I obligate myself absolutely? Am I absolute? Do I have the right to demand absolute obedience from anyone, even myself? And if I am the one who locked myself in this prison of obligation, I can also let myself out, thus destroying the absoluteness of the obligation which we admitted as our premise.
How can society obligate me? What right do my equals have to impose their values on me? Does quantity make quality? Do a million human beings make a relative into an absolute? Is "society" God?
The only source of absolute moral obligation left is something superior to me. This binds my will, morally, with rightful demands for complete obedience.

Thus God, or something like God, is the only adequate source and ground for the absolute moral obligation we all feel to obey our conscience. Conscience is thus explainable only as the voice of God in the soul. The Ten Commandments are ten divine footprints in our psychic sand.

Addendum on Religion and Morality

In drawing this connection between morality and religion, we do not want to create any confusion or misunderstanding. We have not said that people can never discover human moral goods unless they acknowledge that God exists. Obviously they can. Believers and nonbelievers can know that knowledge and friendship, for example, are things that we really ought to strive for, and that cruelty and deceit are objectively wrong. Our question has been: which account of the way things really are best makes sense of the moral rules we all acknowledge–that of the believer or that of the non-believer?

If we are the products of a good and loving Creator, this explains why we have a nature that discovers a value that is really there. But how can atheists explain this? For if atheists are right, then no objective moral values can exist. Dostoyevsky said, "If God does not exist, everything is permissible." Atheists may know that some things are not permissible, but they do not know why.

Consider the following analogy. Many scientists examine secondary causes all their lives without acknowledging the First Cause, God. But, as we have seen, those secondary causes could not be without the First Cause, even though they can be known without knowing the First Cause. The same is true of objective moral goods. Thus the moral argument and the various metaphysical arguments share a certain similarity in structure.

Most of us, whatever our religious faith, or lack of it, can recognize that in the life of someone like Francis of Assisi human nature is operating the right way, the way it ought to operate. You need not be a theist to see that St. Francis's life was admirable, but you do need to be a theist to see why. Theism explains that our response to this believer's life is, ultimately, our response to the call of our Creator to live the kind of life he made us to live.

There are four possible relations between religion and morality, God and goodness.

Religion and morality may be thought to be independent. Kierkegaard's sharp contrast between "the ethical" and "the religious," especially in Fear and Trembling, may lead to such a supposition. But (a) an amoral God, indifferent to morality, would not be a wholly good God, for one of the primary meanings of "good" involves the "moral"–just, loving, wise, righteous, holy, kind. And (b) such a morality, not having any connection with God, the Absolute Being, would not have absolute reality behind it.

God may be thought of as the inventor of morality, as he is the inventor of birds. The moral law is often thought of as simply a product of God's choice. This is the Divine Command Theory: a thing is good only because God commands it and evil because he forbids it. If that is all, however, we have a serious problem: God and his morality are arbitrary and based on mere power. If God commanded us to kill innocent people, that would become good, since good here means "whatever God commands." The Divine Command Theory reduces morality to power. Socrates refuted the Divine Command Theory pretty conclusively in Plato's Euthyphro. He asked Euthyphro, "Is a thing pious because the gods will it, or do the gods will it because it is pious?" He refuted the first alternative, and thought he was left with the second as the only alternative.

But the idea that God commands a thing because it is good is also unacceptable, because it makes God conform to a law higher than himself, a law that overarches God and humanity alike. The God of the Bible is no more separated from moral goodness by being under it than he is by being over it. He no more obeys a higher law that binds him, than he creates the law as an artifact that could change and could well have been different, like a planet.

The only rationally acceptable answer to the question of the relation between God and morality is the biblical one: morality is based on God's eternal nature. That is why morality is essentially unchangeable. "I am the Lord your God; sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy" (Lev. 11:44). Our obligation to be just, kind, honest, loving and righteous "goes all the way up" to ultimate reality, to the eternal nature of God, to what God is. That is why morality has absolute and unchangeable binding force on our conscience.

The only other possible sources of moral obligation are:

a. My ideals, purposes, aspirations, and desires, something created by my mind or will, like the rules of baseball. This utterly fails to account for why it is always wrong to disobey or change the rules.
b. My moral will itself. Some read Kant this way: I impose morality on myself. But how can the one bound and the one who binds be the same? If the locksmith locks himself in a room, he is not really locked in, for he can also unlock himself.
c. Another human being may be thought to be the one who imposes morality on me–my parents, for example. But this fails to account for its binding character. If your father commands you to deal drugs, your moral obligation is to disobey him. No human being can have absolute authority over another.
d. "Society" is a popular answer to the question of the origin of morality "this or that specific person" is a very unpopular answer. Yet the two are the same. "Society" only means more individuals. What right do they have to legislate morality to me? Quantity cannot yield quality; adding numbers cannot change the rules of a relative game to the rightful absolute demands of conscience.
e. The universe, evolution, natural selection and survival all fare even worse as explanations for morality. You cannot get more out of less. The principle of causality is violated here. How could the primordial slime pools gurgle up the Sermon on the Mount?


Atheists often claim that Christians make a category mistake in using God to explain nature; they say it is like the Greeks using Zeus to explain lightning. In fact, lightning should be explained on its own level, as a material, natural, scientific phenomenon. The same with morality. Why bring in God?

Because morality is more like Zeus than like lightning. Morality exists only on the level of persons, spirits, souls, minds, wills–not mere molecules. You can make correlations between moral obligations and persons (e.g., persons should love other persons), but you cannot make any correlations between morality and molecules. No one has even tried to explain the difference between good and evil in terms, for example, of the difference between heavy and light atoms.

So it is really the atheist who makes the same category mistake as the ancient pagan who explained lightning by the will of Zeus. The atheist uses a merely material thing to explain a spiritual thing. That is a far sillier version of the category mistake than the one the ancients made; for it is possible that the greater (Zeus, spirit) caused the lesser (lightning) and explains it; but it is not possible that the lesser (molecules) adequately caused and explains the greater (morality). A good will might create molecules, but how could molecules create a good will? How can electricity obligate me? Only a good will can demand a good will; only Love can demand love.


16. The Argument from Desire

1.Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
2.But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.
3.Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.
4.This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."

The first premise implies a distinction of desires into two kinds: innate and externally conditioned, or natural and artificial. We naturally desire things like food, drink, sex, sleep, knowledge, friendship and beauty; and we naturally shun things like starvation, loneliness, ignorance and ugliness. We also desire (but not innately or naturally) things like sports cars, political office, flying through the air like Superman, the land of Oz and a Red Sox world championship.

Now there are differences between these two kinds of desires. We do not, for example, for the most part, recognize corresponding states of deprivation for the second, the artificial, desires, as we do for the first. There is no word like "Ozlessness" parallel to "sleeplessness." But more importantly, the natural desires come from within, from our nature, while the artificial ones come from without, from society, advertising or fiction. This second difference is the reason for a third difference: the natural desires are found in all of us, but the artificial ones vary from person to person.

The existence of the artificial desires does not necessarily mean that the desired objects exist. Some do; some don't. Sports cars do; Oz does not. But the existence of natural desires does, in every discoverable case, mean that the objects desired exist. No one has ever found one case of an innate desire for a nonexistent object.

The second premise requires only honest introspection. If someone denies it and says, "I am perfectly happy playing with mud pies, or sports cars, or money, or sex, or power," we can only ask, "Are you, really?" But we can only appeal, we cannot compel. And we can refer such a person to the nearly universal testimony of human history in all its great literature. Even the atheist Jean-Paul Sartre admitted that "there comes a time when one asks, even of Shakespeare, even of Beethoven, 'Is that all there is?'"

The conclusion of the argument is not that everything the Bible tells us about God and life with God is really so. What it proves is an unknown X, but an unknown whose direction, so to speak, is known. This X is more: more beauty, more desirability, more awesomeness, more joy. This X is to great beauty as, for example, great beauty is to small beauty or to a mixture of beauty and ugliness. And the same is true of other perfections.

But the "more" is infinitely more, for we are not satisfied with the finite and partial. Thus the analogy (X is to great beauty as great beauty is to small beauty) is not proportionate. Twenty is to ten as ten is to five, but infinite is not to twenty as twenty is to ten. The argument points down an infinite corridor in a definite direction. Its conclusion is not "God" as already conceived or defined, but a moving and mysterious X which pulls us to itself and pulls all our images and concepts out of themselves.

In other words, the only concept of God in this argument is the concept of that which transcends concepts, something "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived" (1 Cor. 2:9). In other words, this is the real God.

C. S. Lewis, who uses this argument in a number of places, summarizes it succinctly:

Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A dolphin wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. (Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, "Hope")

Question 1: How can you know the major premise–that every natural desire has a real object–is universally true, without first knowing that this natural desire also has a real object? But that is the conclusion. Thus you beg the question. You must know the conclusion to be true before you can know the major premise.

Reply: This is really not an objection to the argument from desire only, but to every deductive argument whatsoever, every syllogism. It is the old saw of John Stuart Mill and the nominalists against the syllogism. It presupposes empiricism–that is, that the only way we can ever know anything is by sensing individual things and then generalizing, by induction. It excludes deduction because it excludes the knowledge of any universal truths (like our major premise). For nominalists do not believe in the existence of any universals–except one (that all universals are only names).

This is very easy to refute. We can and do come to a knowledge of universal truths, like "all humans are mortal," not by sense experience alone (for we can never sense all humans) but through abstracting the common universal essence or nature of humanity from the few specimens we do experience by our senses. We know that all humans are mortal because humanity, as such, involves mortality, it is the nature of a human being to be mortal; mortality follows necessarily from its having an animal body. We can understand that. We have the power of understanding, or intellectual intuition, or insight, in addition to the mental powers of sensation and calculation, which are the only two the nominalist and empiricist give us. (We share sensation with animals and calculation with computers; where is the distinctively human way of knowing for the empiricist and nominalist?)

When there is no real connection between the nature of a proposition's subject and the nature of the predicate, the only way we can know the truth of that proposition is by sense experience and induction. For instance, we can know that all the books on this shelf are red only by looking at each one and counting them. But when there is a real connection between the nature of the subject and the nature of the predicate, we can know the truth of that proposition by understanding and insight–for instance, "Whatever has color must have size," or, "A Perfect Being would not be ignorant."

Question 2: Suppose I simply deny the minor premise and say that I just don't observe any hidden desire for God, or infinite joy, or some mysterious X that is more than earth can offer?

Reply: This denial may take two forms. First, one may say, "Although I am not perfectly happy now, I believe I would be if only I had ten million dollars, a Lear jet, and a new mistress every day." The reply to this is, of course, "Try it. You won't like it." It's been tried and has never satisfied. In fact, billions of people have performed and are even now performing trillions of such experiments, desperately seeking the ever-elusive satisfaction they crave. For even if they won the whole world, it would not be enough to fill one human heart.

Yet they keep trying, believing that "If only... Next time ..." This is the stupidest gamble in the world, for it is the only one that consistently has never paid off. It is like the game of predicting the end of the world: every batter who has ever approached that plate has struck out. There is hardly reason to hope the present ones will fare any better. After trillions of failures and a one hundred percent failure rate, this is one experiment no one should keep trying.

A second form of denial of our premise is: "I am perfectly happy now." This, we suggest, verges on idiocy or, worse, dishonesty. It requires something more like exorcism than refutation. This is Meursault in Camus's The Stranger. This is subhuman, vegetation, pop psychology. Even the hedonist utilitarian John Stuart Mill, one of the shallowest (though cleverest) minds in the history of philosophy, said that "it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied."

Question 3: This argument is just another version of Anselm's ontological argument (13), which is invalid. You argue to an objective God from a mere subjective idea or desire in you.

Reply: No, we do not argue from the idea alone, as Anselm does. Rather, our argument first derives a major premise from the real world of nature: that nature makes no desire in vain. Then it discovers something real in human nature-namely, human desire for something more than nature-which nature cannot explain, because nature cannot satisfy it. Thus, the argument is based on observed facts in nature, both outer and inner. It has data.


17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience

1.There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
2.Therefore there must be a God.

You either see this one or you don't.


18. The Argument from Religious Experience


Some sort of experience lies at the very core of most people's religious faith. Most of our readers have very likely had such an experience. If so, you realize, in a way no one else can, its central importance in your life. That realization is not itself an argument for God's existence; in fact, in the light of it you would probably say that there is no need for arguments. But there is in fact an argument for God's existence constructed from the data of such experiences. It is not an argument which moves from your own personal experience to your own affirmation that God exists. As we said, you most probably have no need for such an argument. Instead, this argument moves in another direction: from the widespread fact of religious experience to the affirmation that only a divine reality can adequately explain it.

It is difficult to state this argument deductively. But it might fairly be put as follows.

1.Many people of different eras and of widely different cultures claim to have had an experience of the "divine."
2.It is inconceivable that so many people could have been so utterly wrong about the nature and content of their own experience.
3.Therefore, there exists a "divine" reality which many people of different eras and of widely different cultures have experienced.

Does such experience prove that an intelligent Creator-God exists? On the face of it this seems unlikely. For such a God does not seem to be the object of all experiences called "religious." But still, he is the object of many. That is, many people understand their experience that way; they are "united with" or "taken up into" a boundless and overwhelming Knowledge and Love, a Love that fills them with itself but infinitely exceeds their capacity to receive. Or so they claim. The question is: Are we to believe them?

There is an enormous number of such claims. Either they are true or not. In evaluating them, we should take into account:

-the consistency of these claims (are they self-consistent as well as consistent with what we know otherwise to be true?);
-the character of those who make these claims (do these persons seem honest, decent, trustworthy?); and
-the effects these experiences have had in their own lives and the lives of others (have these persons become more loving as a result of what they experienced? More genuinely edifying? Or, alternatively, have they become vain and self-absorbed?).

Suppose someone says to you: "All these experiences are either the result of lesions in the temporal lobe or of neurotic repression. In no way do they verify the truth of some divine reality." What might your reaction be? You might think back over that enormous documentation of accounts and ask yourself if that can be right. And you might conclude: "No. Given this vast number of claims, and the quality of life of those who made them, it seems incredible that those who made the claims could have been so wrong about them, or that insanity or brain disease could cause such profound goodness and beauty."

It is impossible to lay down ahead of time how investigation into this record of claims and characters will affect all individuals. You cannot say ahead of time how it will affect you. But it is evidence; it has persuaded many; and it cannot be ignored. Sometimes–in fact, we believe, very often–that record is not so much faced as dismissed with vivid trendy labels.


19. The Common Consent Argument

This proof is in some ways like the argument from religious experience (18) and in other ways like the argument from desire (16). It argues that:

1.Belief in God–that Being to whom reverence and worship are properly due–is common to almost all people of every era.
2.Either the vast majority of people have been wrong about this most profound element of their lives or they have not.
3.It is most plausible to believe that they have not.
4.Therefore it is most plausible to believe that God exists.

Everyone admits that religious belief is widespread throughout human history. But the question arises: Does this undisputed fact amount to evidence in favor of the truth of religious claims? Even a skeptic will admit that the testimony we have is deeply impressive: the vast majority of humans have believed in an ultimate Being to whom the proper response could only be reverence and worship. No one disputes the reality of our feelings of reverence, attitudes of worship, acts of adoration. But if God does not exist, then these things have never once–never once–had a real object. Is it really plausible to believe that?

The capacity for reverence and worship certainly seems to belong to us by nature. And it is hard to believe that this natural capacity can never, in the nature of things, be fulfilled, especially when so many testify that it has been. True enough, it is conceivable that this side of our nature is doomed to frustration; it is thinkable that those millions upon millions who claim to have found the Holy One who is worthy of reverence and worship were deluded. But is it likely?

It seems far more likely that those who refuse to believe are the ones suffering from deprivation and delusion–like the tone-deaf person who denies the existence of music, or the frightened tenant who tells herself she doesn't hear cries of terror and distress coming from the street below and, when her children awaken to the sounds and ask her, "Why is that lady screaming, Mommy?" tells them, "Nobody's screaming: it's just the wind, that's all. Go back to sleep."

Question 1: But the majority is not infallible. Most people were wrong about the movements of the sun and earth. So why not about the existence of God?

Reply: If people were wrong about the theory of heliocentrism, they still experienced the sun and earth and motion. They were simply mistaken in thinking that the motion they perceived was the sun's. But if God does not exist, what is it that believers have been experiencing? The level of illusion goes far beyond any other example of collective error. It really amounts to collective psychosis.

For believing in God is like having a relationship with a person. If God never existed, neither did this relationship. You were responding with reverence and love to no one; and no one was there to receive and answer your response. It's as if you believe yourself happily married when in fact you live alone in a dingy apartment.

Now we grant that such mass delusion is conceivable, but what is the likely story? If there were no other bits of experience which, taken together with our perceptions of the sun and earth, make it most likely that the earth goes round the sun, it would be foolish to interpret our experience that way. How much more so here, where what we experience is a relationship involving reverence and worship and, sometimes, love. It is most reasonable to believe that God really is there, given such widespread belief in him–unless atheists can come up with a very persuasive explanation for religious belief, one that takes full account of the experience of believers and shows that their experience is best explained as delusion and not insight. But atheists have never done so.

Question 2: But isn't there a very plausible psychological account of religious belief? Many nonbelievers hold that belief in God is the result of childhood fears; that God is in fact a projection of our human fathers: someone "up there" who can protect us from natural forces we consider hostile.

Reply A: This is not really a naturalistic explanation of religious belief. It is no more than a statement, dressed in psychological jargon, that religious belief is false. You begin from the assumption that God does not exist. Then you figure that since the closest earthly symbol for the Creator is a father, God must be a cosmic projection of our human fathers. But apart from the assumption of atheism, there is no compelling evidence at all that God is a mere projection.

In fact, the argument begs the question. We seek psychological explanation only for ideas we already know (or presume) to be false, not those we think to be true. We ask, "Why do you think black dogs are out to kill you? Were you frightened by one when you were small?" But we never ask, "Why do you think black dogs aren't out to kill you? Did you have a nice black puppy once?"

Reply B: Though there must be something of God that is reflected in human fathers (otherwise our symbolism for him would be inexplicable), Christians realize that the symbolism is ultimately inadequate. And if the Ultimate Being is mysterious in a way that transcends all symbolism, how can he be a mere projection of what the symbol represents? The truth seems to be–and if God exists, the truth is–the other way around: our earthly fathers are pale projections of the Heavenly Father. It should be noted that several writers (e.g., Paul Vitz) have analyzed atheism as itself a psychic pathology: an alienation from the human father that results in rejection of God.


20. Pascal's Wager


Suppose you, the reader, still feel that all of these arguments are inconclusive. There is another, different kind of argument left. It has come to be known as Pascal's Wager. We mention it here and adapt it for our purposes, not because it is a proof for the existence of God, but because it can help us in our search for God in the absence of such proof.

As originally proposed by Pascal, the Wager assumes that logical reasoning by itself cannot decide for or against the existence of God; there seem to be good reasons on both sides. Now since reason cannot decide for sure, and since the question is of such importance that we must decide somehow, then we must "wager" if we cannot prove. And so we are asked: Where are you going to place your bet?

If you place it with God, you lose nothing, even if it turns out that God does not exist. But if you place it against God, and you are wrong and God does exist, you lose everything: God, eternity, heaven, infinite gain. "Let us assess the two cases: if you win, you win everything, if you lose, you lose nothing."

Consider the following diagram:

The diagram is in the shape of a square with the opposite corners connected by lines. Going clockwise from the top left the labels are 'God Exists' then 'God does not exist' then I believe in Him' then 'I do not believe in Him'

The vertical lines represent correct beliefs, the diagonals represent incorrect beliefs. Let us compare the diagonals. Suppose God does not exist and I believe in him. In that case, what awaits me after death is not eternal life but, most likely, eternal nonexistence. But now take the other diagonal: God, my Creator and the source of all good, does exist; but I do not believe in him. He offers me his love and his life, and I reject it. There are answers to my greatest questions, there is fulfillment of my deepest desires; but I decide to spurn it all. In that case, I lose (or at least seriously risk losing) everything.

The Wager can seem offensively venal and purely selfish. But it can be reformulated to appeal to a higher moral motive: If there is a God of infinite goodness, and he justly deserves my allegiance and faith, I risk doing the greatest injustice by not acknowledging him.

The Wager cannot–or should not–coerce belief. But it can be an incentive for us to search for God, to study and restudy the arguments that seek to show that there is Something–or Someone–who is the ultimate explanation of the universe and of my life. It could at lease motivate "The Prayer of the Skeptic": "God, I don't know whether you exist or not, but if you do, please show me who you are."

Pascal says that there are three kinds of people: those who have sought God and found him, those who are seeking and have not yet found, and those who neither seek nor find. The first are reasonable and happy, the second are reasonable and unhappy, the third are both unreasonable and unhappy. If the Wager stimulates us at least to seek, then it will at least stimulate us to be reasonable. And if the promise Jesus makes is true, all who seek will find (Mt 7:7-8), and thus will be happy.
 
Firstly, it is important to define "God". Language has a way of evolving over the times, and what may be considered God today may have been drastically different in previous eras.

Secondly, why don't you tell us if you believe in God or not and how you came across that conclusion? :bounce:
 
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@LucyJr
Here is a very interesting article on the merging of science and religion...it is very well written...enjoy!



Is the science of Quantum Mechanics the greatest threat to Christianity? Some years ago the journal Christianity Today suggested precisely that. It is true that QM is a daunting subject. This barrier is largely responsible for the fear. But when the veil is torn away, the study of QM builds a remarkably robust Christian apologetic. When pragmatic & logically invalid interpretations are removed, there remain four possibilities for the nature of reality (based on the work of philosopher Henry Stapp). Additional analysis shows two are exclusive to theism. The third can be formulated with or without God. The last is consistent only with atheism. By considering additional criteria, options that deny God can be shown to be false.


Quantum mechanics is the science of the small, typically describing phenomena that occur at the atomic level. Throughout the history of science, it has been interested in describing the nature of different areas of reality by appeal to waves, or by appeal to particles. These descriptions are mutually exclusive. Things that are waves interfere with each other, such as when one throws two rocks in a pond simultaneously at different locations. One will see rings lapping away from the impacts that can be counted either as the troughs (low points in the water) or peaks. When the rings from the two rocks collide, an interference takes place. Two peaks colliding will result in doubling the peak size of the wave (given that the two rocks were identical). Two troughs colliding will have a similar addition (actually subtraction).By contrast, particles have no such interference. Their behavior, as when one fires a machine gun at a target, is simply additive. Firing two machine guns at targets near each other will simply result in two big piles of lead. By contrast, consider a water wave front approaching a barrier with two holes in it, beyond which is a solid barrier. The front will break up into two ring fronts (similar to the example of chucking rocks in a pond) which will interfere at the barrier. One will get regions of high water, and regions of extreme low water against the sea wall. A similar phenomena is seen when light waves, rather than water waves, are used. Light shining from a common source against a barrier with two holes in it (if the holes are small compared to the wavelength of the light) will show bright bands and dark bands on a screen behind the barrier. In this way Thomas Young showed that light must be a wave phenomenon in 1802. Since waves and particles are mutually exclusive phenomena, this should have settled the debate as to the nature of light for all time. But it didn’t.
Up until 1905, physicists were puzzled at a phenomenon called the photoelectric effect. It had been discovered that shining light upon a metal would produce an electric current. If light is actually a wave, then shining a light with a higher intensityshould increase the magnitude of the current. Yet it became obvious that this wasn’t true. In fact, for light of some frequencies, no current at all was seen regardless of the intensity. Yet for light of higher frequencies, a current could be observed even for extremely low intensity. Albert Einstein realized that if light of a certain frequency had to exist as discrete packets of energy (a particle view), it could explain the photoelectric effect. Suppose that electrons in the metal could not be torn loose unless impacting particles had a minimum energy. This would explain why light of low frequency would not cause a current regardless of the intensity. Einstein’s view of light as a particle was spectacularly confirmed by the experiments of Robert Millikan, who won a Nobel Prize for his efforts. So here we have Young proving that light is a wave, and Millikan proving that light is a particle. Yet waves and particles are mutually exclusive.
Then the Danish physicist Niels Bohr took the idea to explain how an electron can orbit an atomic nucleus without crashing into it. The problem he solved was this: electrons have electric charge, which when accelerated by a force will radiate energy. An electron in an orbit feels the electromagnetic attraction from an atomic nucleus. Hence it must radiate energy, which will cause it to spiral into the nucleus. But suppose that electrons can radiate only by giving up energy in discrete chunks. The effect of this is that only certain orbits will be allowed, including a minimum range orbit which prevents the electron from crashing into the nucleus. Chemistry (& chemists) are saved!
Bohr realized that somehow matter must have characteristics of waves & particles. This did not resolve the paradox, however. By 1929, Bohr and his associates had developed the first interpretation of what Quantum Mechanics means to reality as a whole: the “Copenhagen” interpretation. As Thomas Young’s two slit experiment had shown with light, nature will give you whatever answer you are looking for. If you are looking for wave characteristics in light, you will find them. If, however, you seek to show that light is made of particles called ‘photons’, and a photon must go through one hole or another in Young’s barrier to ultimately illuminate the screen behind it, then you will measure light as a particle phenomenon. Bohr asserted that the characteristics of matter – when an observer is not looking at it – are indeterminate. Erica Carlson’s example of the spinning quarter in the RTB video Quantum Apologetics is a good example of this. While the quarter is spinning, it has no property of being ‘heads’ or ‘tails’. Slapping it down to the table will produce this property in the quarter, however. In Bohr’s case, he claims that quantum objects do not have properties such as ‘location’ or ‘momentum’ while they are unobserved. In fact, he believed that the question of what matter is doing while not observed is meaningless. The answer to this question arrived at by New Age advocates is the source ofChristianity Today’s lament that quantum mechanics is the modern Goliath.
To answer whether quantum mechanics really is a modern Goliath, we must consider this issue: what are the real metaphysical consequences of the Copenhagen interpretation and other (mutually exclusive) interpretations of quantum mechanics?

The Copenhagen Interpretation
The first question is the indeterminacy of matter while in an unobserved state.[SUP]1[/SUP] This indeterminacy seems to agree very well with a Hindu worldview. Hindus believe the world observed through our senses is an illusion, and the actual reality (the universe) is itself God. One can argue that indeterminacy proves that nature is an illusion after all. It also seems to show that there can be no reality outside the universe, hence God is the universe or there is no God. This follows from a proof of Von Neumann in the 1930s, which demonstrated that ‘Hidden Variables’ cannot exist. ‘Hidden Variables’ is the reductionist view that there exists an underlying physical explanation for quantum mechanics, but it is hidden from view. New Agers (and certain reputable physicists such as John Wheeler) take this one step further, by claiming that observations themselves, hence observers, create reality.
The Hindu and New Age view crumbles, however, due to three considerations. The first is John Stuart Bell’s refutation of Von Neumann’s proof. It turns out Von Neumann made a math error. Hidden Variable interpretations are allowed (see Bell’sSpeakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics). On a personal note, I was still being taught that Von Neumann’s proof was valid in my quantum mechanics courses at Carnegie-Mellon University in the mid-80s, despite the fact that Bell’s refutation was published in the 60s. This had a tremendous impact on my own views of Christianity until I independently discovered that the teaching was wrong.
The second is the Copenhagen Interpretation’s fundamental measurement problem. Quantum indeterminacy is only resolved through observation (called ‘collapsing the wave function’). Hence an outside measurement apparatus must always exist. But cosmologists started to run into a problem when they began to consider the whole universe as a quantum object. What or who, outside the universe, collapses its wave function? An infinite regress problem develops that can only be resolved by recourse to a necessary being!
The third is the fallacious nature of the claim that the observer ‘creates’ reality by collapsing a wave function. In fact, the only control the observer asserts is to increase the accuracy of measurement of a particle attribute at the expense of decreasing accuracy in a partner attribute. These pairs of variables appear in the famous Heisenberg uncertainty relation, and multiplied together have the units of ‘action’. Thus pairs such as energy x time or position x momentum multiplied together have a minimum uncertainty equal to Planck’s constant divided by 4p. Properly understood, this is a limitation on human knowledge compared to the previous classical view, as opposed to a promotion in human importance.
Proponents of observer created reality must take their argument one step further, however, since clearly human observers did not appear on the scene until recently. They must claim that a human observation in the present created the past. Wheeler uses the ‘delayed-choice’ experiment to seemingly demonstrate this ability. In his ultimate thought experiment, Wheeler proposes setting up a Young-like apparatus that uses the light from a gravitational lens as input. The idea behind a gravitational lens is that a distant galaxy emits light which is bent toward us by an intervening galaxy. This light arrives by very different paths ostensibly decided billions of years ago. Our apparatus can take light from these different paths and cause it to interfere, or not, after the fact. Hence it appears that we can, in the present, force photons in the past to pick a specific path to travel around the intervening galaxy. The subtle fallacy in Wheeler’s argument is that it presumes that light is real particles following definite paths, hence we can reach into the past and force the photon to pick one real path over another. However, real particles following real paths are part of a hidden variables interpretation, in which the observer has no special role. But if the observer doesn’t matter, then Wheeler’s view falls apart.
One more crucial aspect to the Copenhagen Interpretation is that random events appear intrinsically random. When a radioactive atom decides to decay right now, there is no apparent reason why it made that choice. All other interpretations of quantum mechanics are purely deterministic. Think about how important this is. If Stephen Gould is right, for example, in that human evolution (really happened and) is an extremely improbable outcome based on numerous contingent events, then he is entitled to that view only if Copenhagen is true. But if Copenhagen is right, then a necessary being must exist! I am positive he is unaware of this. I am also positive that it would be very difficult to explain it to him, as it would have to result in a worldview shift worthy of dropping one’s transmission! The same problem applies to any atheist cosmologist trying to build a model of an uncaused universe by appeal to quantum fluctuation. This is an apologetic that very few, if any, Christians have caught on to.
But is it inconsistent with Christianity, given its high regard for God’s sovereignty? Surprisingly the answer is no. There is a specific example within my own work that demonstrates this. I do air-to-air combat analysis for the United States Navy. In my work we use a sophisticated simulation called BRAWLER. In a model run of, for example, an 8 versus 8 combat, numerous probabilistic events occur: radar detections, kills resulting from missile impacts, etc. A theoretical observer within the simulation would have no way of determining that these events were anything but intrinsically random. Yet each model run is deterministically reproducible. Each model run uses a string of probabilities generated by an algorithm which is unique, based on an initial random number seed. If I know the seed, I know, deterministically, the string of random numbers that will be produced, hence I know the outcome of any simulation run. If I don’t know the seed, there is no way, even in principle, for an observer examining the number sequence to prove that it is not intrinsically random. Essentially, the Copenhagen Interpretation represents a compressed information method of running the universe. A ‘random’ number represents the outcome of a missing cause-effect chain.
You see where I’m going with this? Perhaps I’m guilty of the same mistake that Isaac Newton made, seeing reality as clockwork precision, with God as clock-maker. I’m seeing reality as a grand simulation of apparently random events, but God knows the outcome because he made the generator and knows the random number seed. But it looks to me that a very good case could be made that God must exist, upholds reality (the doctrine of creatio continuans) through observation, and imposes complete sovereignty without appeal to a vitalistic force, if Copenhagen is true.

The Hidden Variables Interpretation
The Hidden Variables interpretation has had many weighty champions throughout its history, among them Louis DeBroglie, David Bohm, and John Stuart Bell. Hidden variables is a reductionist view that there really is a mechanism behind quantum mechanics which produces the madness. It is hidden, however, by the nasty influence of the Heisenberg principle. HV takes the equations of quantum mechanics and imposes a realist interpretation upon them. Matter is real particles following real trajectories at all times, acting in normal cause and effect relationships with forces. The difference between it and the classical view is the idea of the pilot wave. The reader may be aware from quantum theory of Schrodinger’s equation, which describes the probability of a particle (or system of particles) being in each possible state that it could be in. In Penrose’s example, the equation would be simple in that it would include just two probabilities: one giving the chance of finding the electron spinning ‘up’, and the other giving the probability of the electron spinning ‘down’. To HV advocates, this equation is not just an abstract mathematical trick that gives us the right answer on the blackboard. They believe the equation, now called the pilot wave, is a real part of nature. The answer to the paradox of Young’s two slit experiment is that part of the pilot wave traverses each hole in the barrier. The particle really can take both paths at the same time.
Why the particles do what they do, as opposed to being influenced by an observer, differs depending on the modeler. Bohm believed, for example, that particles in our reality (what he called the explicate order) are a lot like Plato’s example of shadows on the wall by a flickering campfire. Shadows can do some amazing things, even travel faster than light, but they are merely reflections of a ‘real’ three dimensional reality (the implicate order). Before a Christian panics, however, he might want to read Bohm’s punch line (the Super-Implicate order) athttp://www.satyana.org/html/bohm4.html#Superimplicate. Bohm explains the relationship of our explicate order, several intervening implicate orders, and an ultimate Super-Implicate order by appeal to a video game. The characters in the video game live in the explicate order. The computer program that describes the actions and world of the characters is the implicate order. The game player, with joystick in hand, manipulates the computer-generated world as the Super-Implicate order. How would you assess the identity of the Cosmic game player? What is surprising is that Bohm was a dedicated Hindu, yet he could espouse this view without seeing the implication of the Super-Impli-cate.
Another view is that of John Cramer, of the University of Washington. You can read about him in http://mist.npl.washington.edu/npl/int_rep/tiqm/, or Gribbin’sSchrodinger’s Kittens. Cramer’s ‘transactional interpretation’ takes advantage of a result from electromagnetic field theory. It predicts that, in addition to ‘retarded waves’ that travel from the present to the future, the models generate a solution called an ‘advanced wave’ that seems to imply electromagnetic waves can travel from the future to the present! Sometimes in physics, when a model makes multiple predictions based on a square root function, they can all be true. Dirac found this out when he took Schrodinger’s equation and applied Einstein’s special relativity to it. In addition to the usual electron, the equations predicted that an antiparticle, the ‘positron’ must exist! Sure enough, antimatter exists.[SUP]2[/SUP] Sometimes, however, these extra predictions are just mathematical garbage. For example, when I calculate when a cannon shell will hit the ground, I generally get two solutions: one with a positive time, and one with a negative time. Obviously the negative time solution is meaningless. So the mere existence of the advanced wave in equations tells us nothing about its reality.
In Cramer’s world, every transaction that takes place involves a ‘handshake’ between the past and future. The metaphysical implications are that these handshakes would instantly create a perfectly deterministic universe. Of course this is a feature of all HV models. In a Cramer world, an outside observer not confined to our timeline could see the end from the beginning. A possible drawback to the Cramer model is that it requires a closed universe geometry. It’s beginning to look like the universe is flat instead.
For another model, see John Bell’s Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics. Bell seems very comfortable with a ‘One-World’ model that has a holistic character. In other words, the reason a radioactive atom chooses to decay at this particular moment comes from its interaction with every other particle in the universe. To us, who don’t have access to this universal wave function, the decay seems random. In fact its behavior is not arbitrary. Its unpredictability is solely due to our lack of knowledge.
For any HV model to work it must be non-local in character. This has been experimentally verified. In some sense, the universe behaves as a holistic reality despite the limitations imposed by Einstein’s speed-of-light limit to information transfer. The proof was done by applying a mathematical construct called Bell’s inequality to the results of an experiment named after Einstein and two other physicists, Podolsky & Rosen. These physicists wrote the EPR paper in 1935 as a challenge to the validity of quantum mechanics. In effect it pitted the ‘immovable object’ of special relativity against the ‘irresistible force’ of quantum mechanics. Both theories enjoyed overwhelming experimental support. Yet they seemed to disagree on a specific point. Suppose that a motionless particle with no angular momentum (not spinning) decays into two particles which it flings to the left and right. If one is spinning ‘up’, the other must be spinning ‘down’ so the total angular momentum remains zero. So if, after letting the particles separate by a great distance, we measure particle ‘A’ to be spinning ‘up’, we know that particle ‘B’ must be spin ‘down’. So what. This is trivial, right? The problem is that angular momentum is one of those quantities that can appear in Heisenberg’s uncertainty relation. So here is the problem that can develop. Suppose I set up my apparatus so that instead of measuring ‘up-ness and down-ness’, I measure ‘left-ness and right-ness’. One might think that the particle could still be spinning ‘up’, hence I would measure zero ‘left-ness or right-ness’. But that is not what happens.
The Heisenberg principle has the effect of obliterating whatever knowledge I might have of an ‘up or down’ spin if I choose to measure ‘right-ness or left-ness’. When I try to measure ‘left-ness or right-ness’, I am always going to find the particle spinningfully left or fully right. So here’s where life gets interesting. If experimenter Bob measures the ‘left-ness or right-ness’ of particle ‘A’, and experimenter Sue measures the ‘up-ness or down-ness’ of particle ‘B’, then it appears I can obtain knowledge of the angular momentum of the system in two different spin axis. This is a violation of the Heisenberg principle. Hence, if true, quantum mechanics must be false (on this point). This experiment was actually done by the French physicist Alain Aspect in 1982. It was done in such a way that Bob and Sue measured the effect on their relative particles within a time interval where no communication signal could be sent from one to the other unless it exceeded the speed of light. The result was thatsomehow the two particles were able to conspire in an apparent superluminal fashion without sending explicit communication signals between them. If Sue, measuring first, chose to measure ‘up-ness’, and Bob measuring second also chose to measure ‘up-ness’, 100% of the time when one measured the particle to be up, the other was down. It was the same if both chose to measure ‘rightness or leftness’. If Sue, again measuring first, chose to measure ‘up-ness’, and Bob chose to measure ‘left-ness and right-ness’, then half the time Bob would get a left spin and half the time a right spin, with no relation to whether Sue saw an up spin or a down spin. In other words, there was zero correlation between Bob and Sue’s results in the second case. The experiment can be repeated with Bob and Sue randomly putting their measuring apparatus in any orientation. Bell’s contribution was to calculate what the correlation results would look like in the case where zero communication was allowed (Einstein’s restriction of locality). Aspect’s experiment showed that the zero communication assumption was false. The interesting fact is that it is still impossible to use this effect to send a superluminal message between Bob and Sue. Although Sue’s actions can predetermine what Bob sees, it turns out he has no way to determine the difference between his result and pure randomness, unless Sue can send a message telling him what orientation her machine was in. This can only be done through conventional means! So Einstein’s light-speed limit holds after all! Does this have a metaphysical implication? Perhaps. Someone with full knowledge of the total wavefunction of the universe could non-locally impact any part of the universe meaningfully without detection. Does this sound like anyone you know?
Regardless of the details of the HV model, the key metaphysical impact is that St. Augustine’s classical philosophical argument that ‘the effect of the universe’s existence requires a suitable cause’ is unambiguously applicable here. If HV is true, uncaused beginnings are not. Like David Bohm’s Super-Implicate Order, this leads you straight to a necessary being. The alternative is the logical contradictions exposed by the Kalam argument (the fact that the present exists is proof that the time cannot reach eternally into the past – see William Lane Craig Reasonable Faith or J.P. Moreland’s Scaling the Secular City.)

The Many Worlds Interpretation
It would seem that if chance is real (Copenhagen), God must exist as the Cosmic Observer. If determinism is real, God exists as the Hidden Variable that stops the infinite regress of causes. Doesn’t chance plus determinism cover the full array of possibilities? Have we proved God exists? Not exactly. If reality disappoints, you can deconstruct it. And that is precisely what some have done in construction of the many-worlds & superdeterminism models of reality.
As is explained well in Zukav’s The Dancing Wu-Li Masters (the Chinese designation for physicists), one can question a key assumption of rationality called contrafactual definiteness. When one questions ‘definiteness’ one constructs many worlds. Definiteness is a simple idea. It is as follows: if I choose option ‘A’, then option ‘B’ does not happen. But what if there is not a definite outcome to choice? What if ‘A’ and ‘B’ both still happen, but in different universes (the person in universe ‘B’ would have picked ‘B’). In effect, choice has no consequences. Again we are back to determinism. Perhaps you can see why this might be attractive to the atheist. This idea has the potential of removing the observer from a position of importance. It does not, however, solve the problem of why this multiverse exists in the first place. In fact, those such as Hawking that try to eliminate the need for a beginning to the universe and account for fine-tuning (the Anthropic principles) by proposing a multiverse model still try to appeal to the intrinsic randomness of an uncaused beginning (quantum fluctuation) to get the whole thing started. Yet intrinsic randomness applies only to Copenhagen, and Copenhagen and Many-Worlds are mutually exclusive. Hence Hawking is in the midst of a logical contradiction.
There are three competing schools within MW. The idea started out in 1957 with the thesis of Hugh Everett. His idea was that reality started out as one universe, which branched out as necessary every time a quantum event, such as a radioactive decay, occurred. By this appeal, the measurement problem of the Copenhagen Interpretation is done away with. Collapse of the wave function never really happens.
The second school, started by Bryce Dewitt in the 60’s, argues that all of the many worlds always exist. This school is more metaphysically challenging to theism because it claims to account for fine-tuning as well as eliminating the need for a beginning. They don’t do this by denying that a beginning exists. They claim that time itself does not really exist (the ultimate deconstruction). If time doesn’t really exist, perhaps the idea of a beginning is incoherent. Reality is a lot like the collection of still shots that make up a movie. Each still photo, in the DeWitt view, eternally exists. Time appears (as an illusion) when the stills are collected together in a linear sequence. The ‘glue’ that holds the sequence together and determines the order is the laws of physics (see David Deutsch The Fabric of Reality). What the model has going for it is a calculation done by DeWitt in the 60s that seems to show that quantum mechanics & gravity are reconciled in a particular mathematical framework in which time itself drops out of the equations. Another advocate, Julian Barbour, explains in The End of Time that Paul Dirac discovered in the 50’s that general relativity has no natural time dimension, yet quantum mechanics requires a near-Newtonian version of outside time. Attempts to put these together produce a natural paradox, when one attempts to keep time as a real phenomenon. It is a lot like the equation 2T = T (this is not the DeWitt equation), which is only solvable if T = 0. Barbour suggests that reality is only logically consistent if reality is static. Perhaps the DeWitt equation is an illusion, however. Suppose the Dewitt equation has a similar quality to 2T=T. One can apparently prove that 2=1 in the above equation by dividing out the T (not allowed since one cannot divide by zero). Perhaps this is what DeWitt is doing to remove time. In a similar sense, the majority of physicists deeply suspect the Dewitt solution, believing there to be a deeply hidden error. This is not impossible in science. An error of precisely this sort (dividing by zero) is exactly how Alexander Friedman disproved Einstein’s model of the static universe. Most feel that more is needed to falsify a phenomenon of nature so apparently obvious as time.
The third school is Hawking’s. Hawking makes a realist interpretation of a mathematical method for calculating quantum outcomes developed by Richard Feynman. Interested readers can find Feynman’s own description of his path integral approach in The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. In Feynman’s approach, a photon on its way to illuminate a barrier in a Young apparatus simultaneously really does traverse every possible path on its way there. These paths, however, interfere in the same way that waves do. Blocking some paths (like putting up barriers) changes the way these paths interfere. The probability of finding the photon in a particular location changes accordingly.
In Hawking’s model, every possible universe that can exist is one of these Feynman paths. Hawking’s description of time is also important to understanding his model. Hawking does away with the need for a temporal beginning by proposing that reality is in a closed time loop. For times beyond the Planck time, the universe expands out of a Big Bang till gravity halts the expansion, then contracts into a Big Crunch. For times near the Planck time, time begins to act as a true spatial dimension. To make this happen, Hawking must make a realist interpretation of another useful mathematical device: imaginary numbers. If time has both a real and an imaginary component, then time can act as a spatial dimension near the Planck time while behaving normally beyond it. What Hawking’s model has going for it is the success of Feynman’s method in the field of quantum electrodynamics.
With a series of imaginative solutions, atheists have constructed (or de-constructed) answers to the problem of the observer, the problem of fine-tuning, and the problem of the beginning. When considering the level to which this is a ‘Modern Goliath’, one must start with the fact that MW is still just a consistent explanation (with atheism) of the world rather than an exclusive one. Some of the above MW models are consistent with theism as well. In fact it commends itself quite well as a solution to certain paradoxes in theism in much the same way that extra dimensionality does. On a personal note, it was precisely this characteristic of MW that helped bring me back to theism (at the time I favored MW as the best interpretation), although I now am more inclined toward Copenhagen or HV.
For example, one might make a literal interpretation of Jesus’s statement that we could move mountains with prayer if we just had the faith, or the statement that all we need do is knock, and the door will be opened to us. Might God have constructed the universe that it will respond appropriately if we but ask, kicking us into the right branch of the quantum tree? Hence God answers prayer without invoking a vitalistic force. I’m not advocating this. I’m merely pointing out the congeniality of an Everett interpretation with a feature of Christianity.
Another example is the sovereignty versus free-will problem. There is a minority of Christians that call themselves ‘Christmas Calvinists’: no-L. This is a reference to the five points of Calvinism (acronym TULIP), where the ‘L’ stands for limited atonement. Limited atonement is unpopular[SUP]3[/SUP] because it implies that God plays favorites. Some he has (arbitrarily it seems) favored to be saved, others condemned from the beginning. Recall the verse that says ‘Jacob I loved, Esau I hated’ before either was even born.
But suppose there are many worlds. Suppose a person who is not among the elect from this world, has copies of himself living in these other universes. Perhaps, there, he might be saved. What if the ratio of copies of oneself that ends up saved is the same for all persons? This would certainly answer the question of fairness. Then a person saved in this universe has a choice: what is more objectionable: me being granted grace while others are (apparently) condemned arbitrarily by God, or other copies of yourself in other universes condemned to eternal damnation? One could imagine that free will and God’s sovereignty are reconciled in general through a MW approach. Imagine reality as a cavern with many passages. God knows ‘the end from the beginning’ for every path. Yet imagine that humans still have free will to choose which path through the maze they will follow. Again, I am not advocating this view. I am merely showing how paradoxes are resolved in a MW view.

Problems with Everett’s Interpretation
Everett’s model does not solve the problem of the beginning or the problem of fine-tuning. This is why it is out of favor with contemporary atheist cosmologists. If it turned out to be true, therefore, it should be regarded as much more congenial with theism, rather than atheism, although not necessarily a separate proof.

Problems with DeWitt’s Interpretation
DeWitt’s model has no natural way of explaining the illusion of cause & effect as well as why nature has an apparent beginning, or for that matter, consciousness (plus memories) itself. Most laws of physics (such as the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] law of thermodynamics) are ad-hoc in their model. In one sense, if time doesn’t exist, then why does it so overwhelmingly appear that it does? This is not qualitatively different from the Appearance of Age argument. In a DeWitt universe, the past is an illusion. DeWitt’s problem is worse. Why should I have memories at all if the past is an illusion? If they don’t postulate infinite world-sheets, then there is no particular reason why a past instant that appears to be cause-and-effect linked to your instant need exist. If they do postulate infinite world sheets, then there is no reason that that world sheet need be connected in any way with your instant. If atheists feel the need to beat up on young earth advocates for this, then they should be consistent in their treatment of MW. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. They are inconsistent because they don’t know the facts about MW. (As a day-age advocate, I have the luxury of disagreeing with them both).
For that matter, there is no such thing as consequences of current decisions (or decisions themselves or consciousness itself). At one point Barbour repeats a joke attributed to J.S. Bell as to whether MW advocates (or solipsists) feel the need to have children or buy insurance. Barbour says that yes, he has insurance and children, and this is just an example of an ad-hominem attack. He never actually explains why he has children and insurance, however. (To be fair, this section of his book demonstrated that Bell had toyed with MW ideas at one point.) If Barbour’s view is correct, it should be overwhelmingly likely that the universe should end in the next instant, since chaos is so much more likely than order and cause & effect is not real. In technical terms, there is either no world sheet that appears to be a follow-on in time from mine, or even if there is, there is no particular reason why it should in any way be connected with mine. Of course, Deutsch would say that the mere similarity is somehow sufficient to connect them. This effect is ad-hoc to their model.
Barbour’s answer seems to be that time is just one of those illusions that appears here and there as a tiny subset of a much larger uninteresting chaos. Our existence, our illusion of rational existence is only permitted if there is an apparently orderly timeline, so we see time (a restatement of the Weak Anthropic Principle). This is an example of Boltzman’s Blunder. Recall that Boltzman (the father of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] law of thermodynamics) attempted to explain the existence of our universe’s low entropy state as a rare fluctuation that happens from time to time. As others soon pointed out, a fluctuation that would produce a single human as an observer, or a single solar system, is far more likely than the fluctuation of an entire life-giving universe. Why should I as an observer in a Barbour world-sheet expect to see the rest of my world-sheet appear rational (given that a fluctuation of order that just includes me is so much more likely)? Why should a set of these world-sheets happen to appear together in a meaningful sequence?
Whatever the merits of the above debate, it would seem that the rug has been pulled out from under the DeWitt model. Strominger, in 1996, reconciled quantum mechanics and general relativity without making time a victim. From an Occam’s razor point of view, Strominger’s view would seem to be the better one. It was done within the rubric of superstring theory, which seems the most promising line of unifying the laws of physics.
I am reminded of a joke that Ken Samples tells about an editor of a religious magazine that continually gets letters from a solipsist insisting that his metaphysics is true, at the expense of Christianity. Finally the editor responds, saying that the solipsist has convinced him that solipsism is true. So therefore the editor no longer believes in the existence of the solipsist, hence he would no longer correspond with him. If MW advocates of the DeWitt stripe keep insisting that their metaphysics is true, and therefore they as thinking, conscious beings do not really exist, perhaps we should take them up on it.

Problems with Hawking’s Interpretation
In Hawking’s model, time is real; it merely goes in a circle. It also assumes characteristics of space near the Big Bang, hence there is not ‘truly’ a beginning. Hence its problems are different from the DeWitt interpretation.
Hawking’s first failure is the entropy problem. His goal was to remove the beginning as a creation event, as well as do away with the need for ‘initial conditions’ that such a beginning would entail. The problem of initial conditions is related to the fine-tuning of the universe. This is one reason why, to an atheist, they have to go. Initial conditions are also, by their very nature ‘arbitrary’, hence beyond explanation by a theory of everything, hence objectionable to Hawking. Nonetheless, it turns out that even if there was no initial point of time, the problem of initial conditions doesn’t go away. This has been shown by Penrose (The Emperor’s New Mind) and Guth (paper: The Impossibility of a Bouncing Universe). Penrose has shown that the maximum entropy of the observable universe is 10[SUP]123[/SUP]. The number of ways of fitting together (like legos) all the pieces of the observable universe is the exponential of this: EXP(10[SUP]123[/SUP]). This number is so big it’s hard to come up with examples that would permit one to fathom it. Only the tiniest fraction of these states are ones that would permit life. Penrose also shows that the entropy at the start of our universe appears zero (his WEYL=0 condition). Now, Hawking’s model is cyclical in time, hence the Big Bang must eventually become a Big Crunch. That means that the condition of the singularity at the Big Bang must be identical to the Big Crunch. This means one of two things, both unpalatable to a Hawking view: either the entropy at the singularity is zero, in which case Hawking must find an entropy reversing process in nature, or the entropy at the singularity is some big number, in which case Hawking must explain how an unintelligent process somehow hit the bulls-eye in producing a life-giving universe (the initial conditions problem). Either solution commits Boltzman’s Blunder. The second answer turns out to be impossible, as shown by Guth. One must find an entropy reversing process, or give up the game. But cosmologists seem to agree this is impossible.
Or Hawking must admit he has a theory with a quantum singularity (an infinite collection of 4-spaces each with zero volume). This would permit his outgoing and incoming world lines to meet at the singularity without being continuous in entropy. In this case, Hawking has admitted the existence of a boundary to his universe which is uncaused and has created things with lower ontology (God by any other name . . )
Hawking’s second problem is the problem of needing contingency. As I have stated (and has been testified to by MW advocates such as David Deutsch): MW is purely deterministic. Yet Hawking requires quantum contingency at two points in his model: a quantum fluctuation beginning out of a Feynman singularity, as well as fluctuations that convert time into space as one moves backwards toward the Bang. He is not entitled to intrinsic chance. MW and Copenhagen are mutually exclusive interpretations.
Hawking’s third problem is the need for a closed universe geometry. As our latest measurements of the cosmic background radiation show, the universe appears to be flat.
If a closed universe were true, Hawking would have another problem (4[SUP]th[/SUP]) with his quantum fluctuation beginning. For a fluctuation to work, it must survive for indefinite time. For this to be true, the universe must have zero total energy. But if the universe has zero energy, the equations of general relativity predict a flat universe. So either:
Fluctuation is true = zero energy = flat universe = no boundary proposal is false.
Closed universe is true = some energy = no fluctuation = no boundary proposal is false
Hawking’s fifth problem also relates to the fluctuation. The probability of a fluctuation drops to zero as the time interval allowed drops to zero. But time doesn’t exist yet, hence how could there be a fluctuation?
Hawking’s sixth problem, as pointed out well by William Lane Craig in his essay “What Place, Then, for a Creator?”: Hawking on God and Creation, is his realist interpretations of the Feynman process and imaginary time. As Craig points out, Hawking does this arbitrarily. If time really has an imaginary component, doesn’t Hawking have to prove it (similar to the onus place on DeWitt to show that time doesn’t exist at all)?
Hawkings seventh problem: Feynman's sum over histories approach to quantum mechanics seems to me to be much more amenable to a hidden-variables interpretation as opposed to many-worlds. It is clear from Feynman's exposition that particles traverse the 'many worlds' in a virtual state; the waves interfering and producing a higher or lower probability at each position which is realized once a measurement is made by an outside observer. One does not live within one of the virtual paths! For example, in The Strange Theory of Light & Matter, Feynman explains his theory in reference to a diffraction grating (a generalization of the famous two slit problem). The whole point of the two-slit problem is to demonstrate that the observer cannot observe what is going on with the photons without destroying their behavior. It is clear that there are two distinct ‘worlds’ being referenced: the outer world in which the observer and his measuring device live, and the inner virtual world in which the light appears to travel multiple paths. Which one do we live in? If one attempts to interfere with the virtual particles, one collapses the quantum behavior and gets a classical scattering. Later on, Feynman describes his calculation of the magnetic moment of the electron using virtual particle diagrams. That’s what his theory is for!
In Hawking's universe, a single worldline out of a quantum singularity is one of the Feynman virtual paths. Except he places us within the virtual worldline (otherwise privileged observers are collapsing wave functions). Feynman never does this. I don’t believe this is even coherent (in a Feynman approach). Feynman’s approach is ahidden-variables interpretation similar to Debroglie-Bohm. Hidden means hidden from us.
Hawking then speaks of 'quantum fluctuations' inside a virtual path. Virtual paths were (among other things) invented to explain fluctuations. What is the meaning of a fluctuation within a virtual path? There is no meaning. I believe Hawking is mixing his quantum interpretations (remember that if he is trying to reference some type ofintrinsic chance, he is making an appeal to Copenhagen – many worlds is completely deterministic).
The Feynman path integral process, seems to me, to tie in better with a HV interpretation, rather than MW. In Feynman’s examples of use of his process, the many paths resolve themselves into a single outcome at a measurement. One does not ‘live’ within one of the many paths.

Problems with all MW Interpretations
1) An outstanding problem with all models is the problem of existence. Why does something exist rather than nothing? This problem persists even if time, or a beginning, is done away with.
2) Perhaps the biggest problem that MW models suffer from is the rationality problem, expressed well by John Leslie in the book Universes. If all possible things routinely happen within the multiverse, then why do we live in a rational universe? Things of low probability, like the origin of life, can only be explained by appeal to MW. But this probability is less than that of the appearance of a perpetual motion machine (within a visible horizon of a universe). Once events that fall below the perpetual motion machine threshold are required, information itself disappears as a concept (this is Hubert Yockey’s insight). As Leslie points out, suppose that every rock that a geologist split open had the message ‘Made by Yahweh’. Being a good atheist, events like this don’t bother him since he believes in low probability events like the origin of life anyway. If we attempt to reason this way, we get irrationality instead. Leslie goes on to explain that if we consider the sum total of all the different irrational events that must be allowed (like the appearance of pink bunny rabbits with bow ties, or Wickramasinghe & Hoyle’s example of the 747 formed by a tornado in a junkyard), irrational happenings must be the norm within a multiverse. So the existence of a rational universe is proof that MW is false.
3) The atheist Anthony Flew is fond of saying that ‘from necessary things, only necessary things come’. As some, to paraphrase Cosmologist Timothy Ferris, have said: ‘This has been enough to impale Christian philosophers down through the ages.’ Paul Davies mentions this in The Mind of God, as well as Tipler & Barrow inThe Anthropic Cosmological Principle. This is apparently the crutch that holds up many an atheist view against contrary evidence. But consider the following. The atheists require MW to counter the problem of the observer, the problem of the beginning, and the problem of the fine-tuning. So they are stuck with MW. But if MW produces an infinite number of universes, this produces a necessary, rather thancontingent, reality. If Anthony Flew is right, then it was arguably something necessary that came from a necessary being. I am not sure that Flew’s statement can be reversed to say ‘if I find reality to be necessary, it implies a necessary creator.’ But if it can, then atheists have a problem. Either they stick with MW, which produces a necessary being. Or they abandon MW, which pitches them back into the problem that chance (Copenhagen) & determinism (Hidden Variables) both require a necessary being. (In the second case, Flew’s statement must ultimately be false.)
4) It is not clear that that even an infinite number of universes would produce our life-giving universe. If infinite matter ultimately exists, coming out of a quantum singularity, Penrose’s entropy calculation goes to 1 in infinity. So even infinite universe generation doesn’t reliably produce our universe (whose probability of existing is 1 divided by infinity). On a side note, even in the absence of a quantum-type of MW, the apparent flatness of our universe would produce a spatial extent equal to infinity. This reduces the probability of our particular universe configuration to 1 divided by infinity regardless of the quantum interpretation.
5) Lastly, the biggest problem MW suffers from is the falsifiability problem. MW acts for atheists exactly like God-of-the-Gaps works for theists. MW explains all the gaps. Leslie gives a good example of where this can trouble you in Universes. He mentions a scientist named George Stiegman who used a SAP (strong anthropic principle = MW + weak anthropic principle) explanation of why there is an abundance of matter over antimatter in the universe. We now know of two real physical processes that can account for it. The same thing applies to Hawking’s original use of SAP to explain the nearness of the universe’s expansion rate to the critical density. We have since found a physical explanation (inflation). What about all the other places where atheists currently invoke SAP? Is SAP true, in which case why prefer physical explanations to it, or is it false, in which case why ever apply it?

Superdeterminism
It is precisely MW’s unfalsifiability that bothers some leading physicists such as Allen Guth (the inflationary universe theory), George Smoot (led the COBE effort: experimental verification of the inflationary universe) and Brian Greene (superstring theorist). Guth & Smoot have spoken up about the vagueness of the Strong Anthropic Principle (many-worlds stated as a solution to fine-tuning), as it appears to be the atheist equivalent of the God-of-the-Gaps. Whenever one can’t explain something, MW ‘explains’ it. How can one prove that MW might be false?
Still, fine-tuning, the beginning and quantum events have to be accounted for. As many have noted, among them the philosopher Harry Stapp, and John Stuart Bell, one can account for the outcome of quantum experiments by questioning the ‘contrafactual’ nature of reality. This is a very simple idea. It is that choice does not exist (as opposed to MW, where choice exists but has no definite consequences). This is a very aggressive type of determinism. Here choice is not just denied to us in our universe. Choice is logically false. That means that God cannot exist.
Here is why:
Premise 1) If God exists[SUP]4[/SUP], he is sovereign
Premise 2) Sovereignty is exercised by choice
Premise 3) Choice is logically false
Conclusion 1) Sovereignty is false
Conclusion 2) God is false
Superdeterminism can be stated as follows: “Reality is the way it is because it is impossible for it to be otherwise.” Stated in this way, one might be able to find experimental proof for it, and disprove fine-tuning in one-felled swoop. The way to do this is to succeed at creating the Theory of Everything. Brian Greene, in The Elegant Universe, seems to state that superstring theory might ultimately explain many if not all features of physics which now appear arbitrary and fine-tuned. This still falls short of superdeterminism. To reach that state, one must show that the TOE is logically necessary. This means that all laws, physical constants, properties of particles are really just reflections of abstract mathematical geometry: like p. Even then, you must show that the TOE logically compels reality to exist. Or you must show that reality doesn’t really exist. Even then, one encounters the information: matter distinction.
Of all interpretations, superdeterminism has attracted the least adherents. But I predict that ultimately, more and more atheists will become dissatisfied with MW due to its many problems, and will end up here as a last resort.

Problems with superdeterminism
Anything that points to an ‘arbitrary’ nature to reality is an enemy of superdeterminism: a particular set of footprints in the snow, for example. Fully obeying the laws of physics, this particular set of footprints does not seem to possess the same level of necessity as the value of p. If Linde’s eternal inflation were true, its ‘random’ jumbling of the physical constants at each inflation makes a superdeterminism explanation difficult. Virtual particle creation from the vacuum is hard to explain in a SD view (it is hard in an MW view as well). Why is the only reality possible one that permits life? One can’t speculate on a ‘beauty principle’ so as to skate past Occam’s razor. Life doesn’t operate if so confined.
Being deconstructionist, it must counter the apparent reality of human free will. The burden of proof is on the superdeterminist to show why it is logically necessary that I eat at the Taco Bell today, rather than bag a lunch.
Why can we envision possible other values for physical constants (and other laws)? If superdeterminism were true, wouldn’t it be easier to envision the logical formulation that would deny those other options? Does one then argue that it is logically necessary that it be difficult to envision them, and that it is logically necessary that it be difficult to imagine it being difficult to envision problems . . . and so on . . .
The origin of information cannot have a lawlike solution. Laws produce regular, ordered behavior. They are also information poor. Information is specified and complex. Any algorithm that could produce specified, complex information would have as much information as what it was trying to create (self-organization is false). Hence, even a logically necessary TOE which had the power of compelling reality to exist stillwouldn’t explain the information content of our universe.
The mathematician Kurt Godel, in his incompleteness theorem, proved that no self-contained system of logic (such as a theory of everything) is ultimately possible. There are truths that supercede brute logic.

Pragmatic models: Consistent Histories
No discussion of interpretations of quantum mechanics would be complete without discussion of the new Consistent Histories interpretation. CH is set aside because it is, self-admittedly, not a ‘complete’ theory of quantum mechanics. It is called, affectionately, by some as a ‘FAPP’ theory (for-all-practical-purposes). In other words, it works well in explaining laboratory phenomena but cannot be used to describe a universal wave function. Its very construction requires treating subsets of reality. (For a good explanation of this, see Penrose’s Shadows of the Mind).
CH claims to be a fix to the Copenhagen Interpretation, to solve the problem of Schrodinger’s cat (I almost completed an entire discussion of QM without mentioning the cat!) See Omnes Understanding Quantum Mechanics for a book-length description of CH. This would imply that it is a second interpretation which permits intrinsic chance. However, having read the means by which wave functions are collapsed – one part of reality acts to keep a second subset honest – one can see that this acts exactly like a Hidden Variables theory. Uncertainty in CH comes essentially from lack of human knowledge (like the insurance actuary setting rates) rather than intrinsically.
In any case, even if CH were an intrinsic chance interpretation, its inherent inability to describe a universal wave function leaves the metaphysical consequences of the Copenhagen Interpretation intact. If chance is true, then a Cosmic Observer is true. Of course, if CH is a HV treatment such as I believe, then it also requires the necessary being.
The upshot of this is that CH doesn’t impact the metaphysical discussion of quantum mechanics.

Summary
In short, Copenhagen & Hidden Variables seem plausible and both require a necessary being. Many Worlds is at least consistent with theism, but seems highly problematic as a viable description of reality. Whatever the case, if Flew’s statement about necessary beings turns out to be reversible (& true), then MW itself would require a necessary being. Superdeterminism would explicitly require atheism, but it doesn’t seem possible that it could be true. Other interpretations (Consistent Histories) of quantum mechanics are purely pragmatic and hence have no metaphysical consequences. They don’t supplant ‘the big four’, either (Copenhagen, HV, MW, SD).
Far from being a ‘modern Goliath’ that challenges Christianity, quantum mechanics seems to provide as good a proof of God’s existence as there is. The subject is so complicated, however, and easy to obfuscate, that few if any theists or atheists know the truth about quantum mechanics. This provides great opportunity as an apologetics tool, given that the anti-intellectual bent in the Christian community over the last 100 years usually puts theists in a defensive position on apologetics issues (atheists often find these problems with their position 20-30 years before Christians catch up). If we took the offensive on this issue, for once we would be ahead of the game in our dialogue with atheists.



 
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Aesthetic experience I'd heard of before, by which I'm assuming is meant appreciation of beauty per se and music.

What about the ordered cosmos? I think that's an interesting and good one, it was apparently rocked by the revelations about the earth not being the centre of things, que crisis about man not being the centre of things but to be honest I think the converse should be true, that there is an ordered cosmos apart from man and independent of man, surely God is more and not less likely to exist.

There's also the idea that mathematics, particularly ideas about infinity, prove the existence of God too.

Those proofs that I mention I like because they dont prove the exist of any or a God but one which interacts with and has a relationship to humanity and mankind of the sort posited by the abrahamic faiths.
 
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[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]

The main hidden assumptions lay-men make with regard to Quantum Mechanics is that the Uncertainty Principle, or the Heisenberg principle, is taken at face value to mean the 'Principle of Uncausation'.
But in reality, Heisenberg never assumed the 'madness' at subatomic level to be a problem of a lack of causation, but more a problem of uncertainty or indeterminacy, meanig it could be more or less a problem of physicsist, to find a way or another to really understand what is going there.

Also, even if the subatomic or quatum level would 'suffer' from a lack of causation, the real threat is for naturalism, not for theism.
Because on the side of theism, one could easily argue that quantum particles are uncaused in this actual Universe, but what if there is a energy acting from outside?

But how is the problem on Naturalism? On this view, there is nothing outside of natural forces, so naturalism would be pushed to accept the inevitable question: What is or what causes the quantum particles outside of natural causes?
 
God may be be real. He may be a 16 year old kid playing a video game with a chip on his shoulder getting ready to rage quite because we have not all died yet.
 
And if this should be so?
 
I believe God is an effect of dominant Pi and inferior Pe; the first believes their prior experiences (esp. childhood) are truer than anything you could ever prove today, the second disregards empiricism in favor of rationalization (which is what we primarily observe in the arguments presented above.)

For example: there is no better argument for the existence of the sun than the empirical one; do you see my meaning? We can observe the sun and its qualities objectively; if we get too close to the sun, we will burn; if we stay in the sun for a while, we tan; if the sun goes away, it gets cold; these are all objective statements, and all easily verifiable, ergo we've proven the sun exists empirically, assuming we exist and aren't brains in vats but that's a whole different matter. IJs are especially susceptible to beliefs which may not correlate with objective reality due to such powerful Pi; on the contrary, EPs have a strong tendency to be atheist (or at least non-religious i.e. don't take God seriously), thanks to their dominant Pe. I don't believe these are coincidences; I believe it is crucial for the INFJ to develop their Se before attempting to make objective assessments of the world around them, rather than resorting to arguments which can only convince, but never prove, there existing something which Pe would declare to be false. It is for this reason that the INFJ, for example, is stereotyped as a conspiracy theorist, and why IJs in general can be overtly paranoid when there is no visible threat.

This is not to say all things are tangible, and an intangible God is the only one we will acknowledge; however, it is inconsistent to assert there is both an intangible God who can manipulate and break commonly accepted rules of the tangible world, just as it would be inconsistent to assert one man is allowed to steal, while another is not; without moral consistency, ethics have no meaning, and without physical consistency, reality is incoherent. We cannot observe the intangible; we can only understand it in abstract, and an abstract God is not the God religions espouse; rather, it is the God who is there with us (tangible body), who watches over us (tangible eyes and intent), who keeps us safe (tangible prowess), and punishes the good and the bad in the afterlife (tangible heaven and hell); however, we have never observed these things, which pits God at end as a sentient being without a tangible presence; in other words, God is conscious without matter, of which no deity can be without lest he be merely a non-living regular force of the natural world i.e. you cannot define God as a non-thinking entity, and supposed physical manifestations of God can be easily observed to have no verifiable Godlike qualities.

I postulate it is the well-developed Pe which shows us why there cannot be conscious without matter; once this is developed far enough, rational arguments for God's existence cease to matter, because the empirical argument--the one we use to confirm existence--never checks out.

Note that this is not an argument that there exists no God; it is merely an argument that God's existence is unverifiable and ultimately of a purely subjective experience. Ergo, arguments for the existence of God don't matter (the nice way of saying they're a waste of time :p), and there is no reason to show others there exists a God besides doubt and a desire for reassurance.
 
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[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

With all due respect, I hope you will receive this in the spirit I intend it--in sincerity, seeking only the glory of God.

I know you said that you posted this for informational purposes only, but these arguments are quite foolish, and they only make a mockery of the faith.

The only arguments for the existence of God that matter are in the Scriptures, such as:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
(Genesis 1:1)
and
The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
(Psalm 19:1)
and
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
(Romans 1:18-21)


If one is to know the truth, then one must believe the divinely-inspired, dogmatic statements of Scripture.

And the fact is, no one will believe without God-given faith, and the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write:
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
(1 Corinthians 2:13-14)

The Lord Jesus Christ declared himself to be God, and the only savior of sinners. That's not something you can prove, but only declare.
The Lord Jesus said:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

He also said, of himself:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:16-18)

Furthermore, the prophet of God, John the Baptist, was inspired by God to declare this:
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
(John 3:36)


So, there you have it. The divinely-inspired, dogmatic declarations of God.
And the entire Bible is full of such declarations.

Those are the things that people need to hear.
They don't need ideas, they need absolute Truth, spoken with conviction, authority, and clarity.

I plead with you, [MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION], not to rely on clever arguments, but to boldly speak the words of God in faith.
 
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Yeah, that's why Jesus taught not through parables, but literal examples. So much more meaningful that way.
 
Note that this is not an argument that there exists no God; it is merely an argument that God's existence is unverifiable and ultimately of a purely subjective experience.

It isn't purely subjective if it's experienced by more than one. :wink:
 
@LucyJr

I hope you will receive this in the spirit I intend it--in sincerity, seeking only the glory of God.

I know you said that you posted this for informational purposes only, but these arguments are quite foolish, and they only make a mockery of the faith.

The only arguments for the existence of God that matter are in the Scriptures, such as:

and

and



If one is to know the truth, then one must believe the divinely-inspired, dogmatic statements of Scripture.

And the fact is, no one will believe without God-given faith, and the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write:


The Lord Jesus Christ declared himself to be God, and the only savior of sinners.
He said:


He also said, of himself:


Furthermore, the prophet of God, John the Baptist, was inspired by God to declare this:



So, there you have it. The divinely-inspired, dogmatic declarations of God.
And the entire Bible is full of such declarations.

Those are the things that people need to hear.

I plead with you, @LucyJr, not to rely on clever arguments, but to boldly speak the words of God in faith.

not to negate the need to boldly declare the Gospel, but Paul quite often made use of clever rhetoric to show Greek philosophers of his day the nature of God. In his own words Paul became all things to all men that he might win them to Christ. God made us rational thinking things, not only is it valuable to be able rationally declare the reality of Christ and his kingdom, it's a waste of God's gifts to us to not avoid this kind of Apology. It should also be noted that we strive to be as intelligent as we possibly can in these argument, A) because God deserves nothing less and B) because when we speak we represent God.
 
Yeah, that's why Jesus taught not through parables, but literal examples. So much more meaningful that way.

He kind of did both.... Just saiyan.
 
not to negate the need to boldly declare the Gospel, but Paul quite often made use of clever rhetoric to show Greek philosophers of his day the nature of God. In his own words Paul became all things to all men that he might win them to Christ. God made us rational thinking things, not only is it valuable to be able rationally declare the reality of Christ and his kingdom, it's a waste of God's gifts to us to not avoid this kind of Apology. It should also be noted that we strive to be as intelligent as we possibly can in these argument, A) because God deserves nothing less and B) because when we speak we represent God.

I'm not saying one shouldn't expound intelligently on the Scriptures, use intelligent rhetoric consistent with the Scriptures, etc.
Surely, preaching and witnessing the Gospel requires more than ONLY quoting Scripture.

But the arguments LucyJr posted are foolish, and make a mockery of the faith. Did you even read them?

I think you'd agree that they are quite foolish.
 
Oh ye of little faith.
 
I'm not saying one shouldn't expound intelligently on the Scriptures, use intelligent rhetoric consistent with the Scriptures, etc.
Surely, preaching and witnessing the Gospel requires more than ONLY quoting Scripture.

But the arguments LucyJr posted are foolish, and make a mockery of the faith. Did you even read them?

I think you'd agree that they are quite foolish.

I haven't honestly, mostly because TL;DR. I would like to go back to my end statement being that any arguments we present should be nothing less then our best intellectually. It was the nature of your post that caught me, namely that the notion that by telling people that the Bible declares God to exist is going to seem absurdly circular to anybody looking in on this conversation when we have yet to give them a reason to believe that the Bible is truth(even more so when we put forth it's true because the God it argues for is the one who made it).


Edit:Skimmed Lucy's post, the arguments are ones you'd find in any beginner's apologetic book or any apologetics 101, they are starting points from which we build a stronger and often more personal apologetic as you mix the arguments you read with your own findings and study. Maybe not the best, but nothing to laugh at.
 
I haven't honestly, mostly because TL;DR. I would like to go back to my end statement being that any arguments we present should be nothing less then our best intellectually. It was the nature of your post that caught me, namely that the notion that by telling people that the Bible declares God to exist is going to seem absurdly circular to anybody looking in on this conversation when we have yet to give them a reason to believe that the Bible is truth(even more so when we put forth it's true because the God it argues for is the one who made it).


Edit:Skimmed Lucy's post, the arguments are ones you'd find in any beginner's apologetic book or any apologetics 101, they are starting points from which we build a stronger and often more personal apologetic as you mix the arguments you read with your own findings and study. Maybe not the best, but nothing to laugh at.

Well, my main point is that it's impossible to prove that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. And any intelligent person will see through any attempts to do so.

It is neither possible, nor profitable, nor is it commanded of God, to PROVE anything about God.

Those who are sent of God declare the truth dogmatically. That always has been, and always will be, God's way.

If you disagree, then your controversy is with the Holy Scriptures, and with God himself, who inspired them.
 
Well, my main point is that it's impossible to prove that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. And any intelligent person will see through any attempts to do so.

It is neither possible, nor profitable, nor is it commanded of God, to PROVE anything about God.

Those who are sent of God declare the truth dogmatically. That always has been, and always will be, God's way.

If you disagree, then your controversy is with the Holy Scriptures, and with God himself, who inspired them.

It's been a while since I've been in intro to apologetics, but here's what I could pull from the top of Google.

1 peter 3:15&16
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Acts 17:16-34
Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.”

I try not to quarrel with God, I can think of at least one good example of an individual losing a hip because of it.
 
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[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

I think all what you've said is correct :D
Indeed we don't have to prove the glory of God: God Himself can pass that test.
Yes, I whole heartly agree with you that the Gospel must be preached with Scriptures, not relying on clever argument and philosophical arguments.
If Christianity would have base its power on apologetics and philosophical arguments, we would be doomed, for nothing would advance in the Kingdom of God.
We are commanded to preach with the power of Scriptures, with authority, by the empowering of Holy Spirit.

But than I don't think the arguments I posted are necessarely "foolish". Looking from our perspective, yes, they seem foolish.
But these arguments are good in at least tiny way, to make a man to THINK at the glory of God revealed in Creation.

Many people don't have time for preaching, because perhaps many of them had really bad experience in the past with the so called christians. Many of them were grew up as christians, but all they have saw was bad things, thing that are a shame to God.
It is because of these man that the glory of God is mocked, like you very well know the Bible say.

So by these arguments, rather is trying to gently and wisely persuade a man to think: "Please, stop and think at all these things. have you thinked at them? Where do they come from?".

But than again, these arguments can not prove the God of the Bible ( He can only reveal himself). They just show a ordear and reason in Universe that points toward a Creator.
 
Yeah, that's why Jesus taught not through parables, but literal examples. So much more meaningful that way.

Really? You mean the sower was really about how to put down a good field of crops?

That's not what he actually told people when they asked him what he was on about you know.