Socialism

Meh, I shouldn't complain. America is going to be a communist country by the end of this century anyways. After all, we are selling off the means of our production to China every single day with every trip to Wal Mart we make.
 
Satya is pretty fricken arrogant and close-minded. By the way, you're J. I noticed the XNFX type, and I just thought I'd let you know. Your Ni is showing.

Also... if you're an advocate for socialism, why are you saying things like "this is MY thread"? ....

Socialism is good in small doses. When it comes to alcohol & weed, I usually follow the customs of a gift economy- it's more fun when everyone can be inebriated! Weed is cheap, alcohol not as much... but I'm okay with giving it to my friends.

But if socialism ruled all aspects of life... well first of all I don't see how I couldn't have a government or some authoritarian figure/mob. What happens if I'm in a libertarian socialist group and I decide to keep something? For myself, and have nothing else? Who enforces my behavior? Does anyone? If they DON'T force me to share is it really socialism?

Having a free-market economic system allows people to save and control their resources! Which allows me to give people gifts and participate in the gift economy!

If it wasn't for the free market, we wouldn't have gifts. :mxmas:
 
I think that it's not fair that others who work harder get paid the same as those who don't. Hard work should be rewarded.
 
civilianjones said:
Satya is pretty fricken arrogant and close-minded.
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Um...takes one to know one?

By the way, you're J. I noticed the XNFX type, and I just thought I'd let you know. Your Ni is showing.
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Ah, thanks, I was wondering about that.

Also... if you're an advocate for socialism, why are you saying things like "this is MY thread"? ....
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Cuz i'm not allowed to debate with people cuz they see me as intimidating due to being a mod. But within a thread I created, I can do so.

Socialism is good in small doses. When it comes to alcohol & weed, I usually follow the customs of a gift economy- it's more fun when everyone can be inebriated! Weed is cheap, alcohol not as much... but I'm okay with giving it to my friends.
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Yay!

But if socialism ruled all aspects of life... well first of all I don't see how I couldn't have a government or some authoritarian figure/mob. What happens if I'm in a libertarian socialist group and I decide to keep something? For myself, and have nothing else? Who enforces my behavior? Does anyone? If they DON'T force me to share is it really socialism?
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Yah, pure socialism would suck.

Having a free-market economic system allows people to save and control their resources! Which allows me to give people gifts and participate in the gift economy!
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It also allows major retailers to do business with China, which drives American manufacturers out of business since they can't compete against a communist country which has an undervalued currency and where workers are usually paid less than 50 cents an hour. And that wonderful free market then leads to all the manufacturing companies closing down factories and plants here and building them in China so they can compete. That in turn leads to all those hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs where people were earning $16 an hour with full benefits turing into service industry jobs where workers make $7 an hour without any benefits. And of course, all the means of production is in China, which means the United States has an increasing trade deficit with that communist country of around $200 billion a year. That is money being funneled out of the American economy and into the Chinese economy. The result is the standard of living goes down.

What do you think the inevitable conclusion is by following a free market economy?

Americans turn to their government, which then tires to spend it's way out of trouble, but it doesn't have the money to do so because the standard of living is falling every year for its populace due to the increasing trade deficit, so it borrows money from China.

How long do you think it is before America is so indebted to China, and so dependent on it for our means of production, that this country becomes nothing but an extension of their communist regime?

If it wasn't for the free market, we wouldn't have gifts. :mxmas:
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I prefer a fair market to a free one. The free one has a habit of selling out our freedom.

A good question. Is there a free market when you do business with unfree nations?
 
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civilianjones said:
If it wasn't for the free market, we wouldn't have gifts. :mxmas:
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When you make me a gift, you offend me. You're saying that you possess something that I don't have, and I'll have it only because you give it to me. It makes me obligated, indebted, dependent on you. That also violates my own preferences, as if you should make decisions and choices for me, because I'm some kind of idiot. Maybe I would have picked something better for myself. The whole notion of charity is veeery perverted.

I even think that's one of the main reasons that keep children dependent - they are provided by their parents, they wait for Santa and so on. It makes them feel like lower beings, which is never useful for their development.

The truth is indeed that we should stop comparing the 16th century system with the 19th century system, as (I guess) M. Moore recently mentioned. It's the 21st century. Most of the books written about these systems are grossly outdated and irrelevant, and the so called "historical lessons" can't be applied to the current situation.
 
Satya said:
It also allows major retailers to do business with China, which drives American manufacturers out of business since they can't compete against a communist country which has an undervalued currency and where workers are usually paid less than 50 cents an hour. And that wonderful free market then leads to all the manufacturing companies closing down factories and plants here and building them in China so they can compete. That in turn leads to all those hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs where people were earning $16 an hour with full benefits turing into service industry jobs where workers make $7 an hour without any benefits. And of course, all the means of production is in China, which means the United States has an increasing trade deficit with that communist country of around $200 billion a year. That is money being funneled out of the American economy and into the Chinese economy. The result is the standard of living goes down.

What do you think the inevitable conclusion is by following a free market economy?

Americans turn to their government, which then tires to spend it's way out of trouble, but it doesn't have the money to do so because the standard of living is falling every year for its populace due to the increasing trade deficit, so it borrows money from China.

How long do you think it is before America is so indebted to China, and so dependent on it for our means of production, that this country becomes nothing but an extension of their communist regime?

I prefer a fair market to a free one. The free one has a habit of selling out our freedom.

A good question. Is there a free market when you do business with unfree nations?
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I think that the companies & people of China are deserving of the business & employment that they get! As ilovethewind said: " I think that it's not fair that others who work harder get paid the same as those who don't. Hard work should be rewarded. "

The people in China are working just as hard as America, why shouldn't they be paid? Eventually China & America may equalize. It sounds like you want to jealously guard our wealth and not allow others to share in prosperity.

The economy isn't a zero-sum game. We all benefit from having more trade! That's the basic idea behind trading & economics.

It sounds like you are proposing protectionist policies. Protectionist policies act to artificially drive up consumer prices in the country it's in, and it also acts as a subsidy to the businesses in that country.

That is what I call an unfair market.

As for the trade deficit: I feel that is the fault of the government, and not the free-market. The government has been trying to provide socialist programs (medicare, medicaid, social security, welfare) and it is costing us a lot. (There are some non-socialist programs that are costing a lot too: namely the Department of 'Defense'.)
 
civilianjones said:
As for the trade deficit: I feel that is the fault of the government, and not the free-market. The government has been trying to provide socialist programs (medicare, medicaid, social security, welfare) and it is costing us a lot. (There are some non-socialist programs that are costing a lot too: namely the Department of 'Defense'.)
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What do social programs have to do with a trade deficit?

A trade deficit is where you are importing more goods than you are exporting. How is that the fault of the government?

If you are willing to work for 50 cents an hour and without basic worker protections; which is what it takes to compete against China, then I guess there isn't any problem with following the free market. However, just remember that China is not a free country, and as such, the workers have no means to push for higher wages or better work conditions, and so there will be no "equalizing".
 
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Satya said:
Meh, I shouldn't complain. America is going to be a communist country by the end of this century anyways. After all, we are selling off the means of our production to China every single day with every trip to Wal Mart we make.
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HAHAH give it a grip.. USA will not be communist. However China is definetly a threat to the world as they are predicted to be the next world power.
 
Pristinegirl said:
The thing about China is that politically they are communistic and economically they are capitalistic.
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That is correct. China's economy is a market economy. Your point?

The minimum wage, the currency, and worker condition regulations are political aspects controlled by the government and provide advantages to China that the United States does not have.

Pristinegirl said:
HAHAH give it a grip.. USA will not be communist. However China is definetly a threat to the world as they are predicted to be the next world power.
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I would say the fact that American's have currently turned to the government now that their standard of living is falling, is more than enough evidence that this country will inevitably end up with an authoritarian socialistic government.
 
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Satya said:
That is correct. China's economy is a market economy. Your point?



I would say the fact that American's have currently turned to the government now that their standard of living is falling, is more than enough evidence that this country will inevitably end up with an authoritarian socialistic government.
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There is no chance in hell that it will happen haha. America is a country with people who value their freedom and have a 'bond with god' which gives them faith, courage and hope. Thus they will have strength to fight it, in that case.
 
Pristinegirl said:
There is no chance in hell that it will happen haha. America is a country with people who value their freedom and have a 'bond with god' which gives them faith, courage and hope. Thus they will have strength to fight it, in that case.
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Oh, Americans will sell out their freedom. All you have to do is offer Americans the lowest price, and they will take it. It doesn't matter that they are driving their own small businesses and manufacturing plants into the ground, or that they are channeling money to foreign markets and foreign governments, or that they are exchanging high paying manufacturing jobs for low paying service industry jobs, or that they are driving their standard of living down by building up a large trade deficit.

Do you know what you call a country which has no means of production and has to get all its goods from elsewhere?

A third world country.

And that is what the United States will be. And ironically, who does the American government borrow most of its money from?

China.

So what do you think happens when Americans reduce themselves into third world status in their quest for the lowest price and are hundreds of billions of dollars in debt to China?

The answer is that we become a puppet state. We might be allowed to believe that we are free, but in reality, China will be calling all the shots. Whenever they want something, they only need to put pressure on the government to start repaying loans or pressure on our markets by withholding goods.

At this point, we are selling our freedom to the lowest bidder every time we shop at Wal Mart.

The free market is becoming the tool to our enslavement.
 
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Satya said:
Oh, Americans will sell out their freedom. All you have to do is offer Americans the lowest price, and they will take it. It doesn't matter that they are driving their own small businesses and manufacturing plants into the ground, or that they are channeling money to foreign markets and foreign governments, or that they are exchanging high paying manufacturing jobs for low paying service industry jobs, or that they are driving their standard of living down by building up a large trade deficit.

Do you know what you call a country which has no means of production and has to get all its goods from elsewhere?

A third world country.

And that is what the United States will be. And ironically, who does the American government borrow most of its money from?

China.

So what do you think happens when Americans reduce themselves into third world status in their quest for the lowest price and are hundreds of billions of dollars in debt to China?

The answer is that we become a puppet state. We might be allowed to believe that we are free, but in reality, China will be calling all the shots. Whenever they want something, they only need to put pressure on the government to start repaying loans or pressure on our markets by withholding goods.

At this point, we are selling our freedom to the lowest bidder every time we shop at Wal Mart.
The free market is becoming the tool to our enslavement.
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CORRECTION: A third world country is a country which is undeveloped and/or is currently developing...

No chance. There will be war long before China ever gets that upperhand my dear!!
No other nation in the western world, especially Europe will allow this to happen...
 
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Pristinegirl said:
CORRECTION: A third world country is a country which is undeveloped and/or is currently developing...
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Developed what? The ability to manufacture! That is what is meant when countries are referred to as "developed".

A third world country is a country which is not industrialized.

America is undergoing a reverse industrialization because we are literally giving China our manufacturing industry.

No chance. There will be war long before China ever gets that upperhand my dear!!
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Why would there be war? If we sell ourselves to China, then we only have ourselves to blame.

No other nation in the western world, especially Europe will allow this to happen...
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It's happening right now. Right as we speak.
 
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Satya said:
Developed what? The ability to manufacture! That is what is meant when countries are referred to as "developed".

A third world country is a country which is not industrialized.
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NO! Actually a third world country is one in which there is a very low living standard such as regional wars and food shortages etc.

Whereas "A developed country is one that allows all its citizens to enjoy a free and healthy life in a safe environment."

Why would there be war? If we sell ourselves to China, then we only have ourselves to blame.

It's happening right now. Right as we speak.
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Its not new that China is developing fast, it is threatning to the whole world - Not just America. Throughout history America always came to the aid of others, therefore if worst comes to worst many nations will have their backs.
 
Pristinegirl said:
NO! Actually a third world country is one in which there is a very low living standard such as regional wars and food shortages etc.
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Those are consequences of not having a manufacturing industry and something which America will probably face one day.

Whereas "A developed country is one that allows all its citizens to enjoy a free and healthy life in a safe environment."
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I've never had a person argue that a third world country isn't, by definition, a country that doesn't have a manufacturing industry. Tell me what you base your definition on, because I'm pretty much going by the economic textbook definition.

Its not new that China is developing fast, it is threatning to the whole world - Not just America. Throughout history America always came to the aid of others, therefore if worst comes to worst many nations will have their backs.
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We wouldn't allow that. We believe in a free market here! If we freely sell ourselves into slavery, then who are you to try to help us?
 
I've never had a person argue that a third world country isn't, by definition, a country that doesn't have a manufacturing industry. Tell me what you base your definition on, because I'm pretty much going by the economic textbook definition.
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I'm NOT arguing against the fact that they don't have a manufacturing industry haha, I'm against that you choose to only see that facett...

We wouldn't allow that. We believe in a free market here! If we freely sell ourselves into slavery, then who are you to try to help us?
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I see your opinion clearly. But the truth is that the world is fighting towards human rights and democracy and you are suggesting a reversal of it...

It is your prediction, am I right? You may think that its on YOU since 'you' put yourself in this situation... BUT thats not the hope or empathy USA is known for... neither would that be enough for the world to abandon America. And trust me, you would!!! :)
 
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