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Socialism

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Satya, Oct 1, 2009.

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  1. Rudy

    Rudy Regular Poster

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    If you can come up with ways to provide individual incentives to work and innovate, without changing what makes it socialism, I don't see why not in theory.

    I just don't believe that you can come up with such incentives that would actually work.

     
  2. OP
    Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Why?
     
  3. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Capitalism failed in 1929.

    Since then the US has been Socialist. While at the same time also being bigoted, greedy and having a strong streak of classism.
     
  4. OP
    Satya

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    Nuh uh! We tried capitalism again when we elected Bush Jr.! Life has been super peachy ever since!
     
  5. Rudy

    Rudy Regular Poster

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    Because I've seen many failed theoretical attempts, and no successful ones.

    I'm perfectly happy to listen to your ideas on the issue, though.
     
  6. OP
    Satya

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    Really? You have examples of creating individual incentives to work and innovate within a socialized system? Can you post some?

    Let's start with the failures. I would like to hear what you have.
     
  7. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    With Social Security still on the table, and Socialist Education.
     
  8. OP
    Satya

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    He wanted to privatize Social Security! He signed the No Child Left Behind Act which denies federal money to schools that underperform!
     
  9. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    oh right, good point.
     
  10. Rudy

    Rudy Regular Poster

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    Oh, mainly things like "if only people would love each other more," and nonsense like that. I don't really know anyone willing to advocate a purely socialistic system. Even in grad school for Econ (I'm a Ph.D. candidate at U.Penn right now,) there's not a single professor or student, no matter how liberal in his views, willing to argue for a purely socialistic system, because they understand how insurmountable the incentive issue is.

    In any case, I'm not advancing a position, I'm saying that I doubt your position (that being that such incentives can be created.) I never said that such things are impossible, just that I doubt they are feasible, and that I have seen no examples otherwise. If you wish to argue against this, then it is your burden to provide an example, not mine.
     
  11. Lucifer

    Lucifer Registered User #666

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    Like I said I am not anti technology I phrased it that way cause I was pissed.

    People tend to WORSHIP technology and yes it makes life more comfortable and convenient but does it really make life BETTER, does it make people happier. Cause if were not here to be happy what the hell are we doing?

    I am opposed to the Techno=god attitude, not technology in of itself.

    The faster technology advances the more we "progress" the more trouble we get into.
    Would I hate to live with out most of the things you listed? Really? I'd probably miss women's lib but prehistoric (ala non technological) societies were typically egalitarian so I am not worried.

    Other then that there is not much to miss, people can live a happy life with out most of the "million other things" technology provides.


    Just one example I gave, plus the manufacture of anything has a high environmental cost because it requires a lot of electricity manufacturing is the one of the biggest causes of green house emmisions.

    They are violated anyway and the cost of technology aren't limited to production.

    .

    In the US sure there are plenty of regulations involving manufacturing, but what about other countries?

    Second corruption abounds and laziness abound perhaps not so much in commercial labs, but in plenty of other areas of commerce.

    I repeat I am not opposed to technology I just want materialists to dismount there high horse. I want them to realize that technology is not that imperative were as thinking about the spiritual and environmental consequences of our progress over thousands of years is.

    :m165:
     
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    #51 Lucifer, Oct 2, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2009
  12. OP
    Satya

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    Pure socialism can work, but only within very small, homogeneous groups. The likelihood of any pure economic system working on a large scale is infeasible. As such, there are ways to mitigate the incentive and innovation issue, but they are only effective on a community scale.

    The point of this thread was to dispel myths associated with socialism. It has become so demonized that people no longer think rationally about it. It is a tool. It can be used for good or for evil. It depends upon the people who use it.

    The real issue is the amount of control government's exert over people. Socialism is a tool that governments can use to that end, but so is capitalism.
     
  13. Pristinegirl

    Pristinegirl Well-known member

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    Like I said: Good or bad - is pointless! How much, on the other hand, is not!!!! In america people don't pay 59 % tax when their sallary is $4000 (which is considered HIGH sallary here)... Nor does an author with a revenue of many millions have to pay 101 % taxes in USA...

    But there are middle classers in America! As are there are still poor people in Sweden...
     
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  14. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Noone on earth has to pay 101% tax, unless you're dealing with a loan shark.
     
  15. Pristinegirl

    Pristinegirl Well-known member

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    Strange that you insist, when the most famous author in Sweden Astrid Lindgren had to pay it...
     
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  16. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    She couldn't make any money, and had to pay for the right to publish?
     
  17. Pristinegirl

    Pristinegirl Well-known member

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    The publisher did not charge her, they deduct the costs of production from the revenue and she gets the remaining, And on that she had 101 % tax - in other words she had to PAY the state 1 % more than she had earned.
     
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  18. Norton

    Norton XXXX

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    Anyway, with regard to the United States, the reality is that Socialism is not and will not be on the table for the foreseeable future. Notwithstanding programs like Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, Government funding of research, etc., "Socialism" is a dirty word here. There is only one self-avowed Socialist in Congress (Bernie Sanders of VT). Increasing taxes is almost politically suicidal and even a "public option" to compete with private healthcare insurance is likely impossible, given political reality. Many who threw tantrums at town hall meetings this past summer, are going against their own best interests and this is all in response to that dirty word, socialism. This is reality, despite a handful of popular Government programs that would appear to be "Socialistic." So, whether you're for or against Socialism philosophically it doesn't much matter, because it's just not going to happen here in the U.S.
     
  19. Architectonic

    Architectonic Regular Poster

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    Natural monopolies can be efficient - eg services on a small island - the island is not large enough to support duplication. Only the threat of competition is required.

    As such, virtually all other commercial monopolies that exist only do so because they have received a substantial amount of government protection or support.

    Not to mention you are also neglecting the fact that governments are also monopolies.

    Markets don't necessarily yield the most efficient distribution (how is that even defined anyway?), but it does automatically perform computations of magnitude that are impossible to do through central planning. The ultimate limits aren't even due to lack of computational power, but rather lack of information input.

    If you want socialism that approaches the efficiency you get with a market based economy, be prepared to give up all of your privacy and spend a large amount of time filling in questionaires.

    Otherwise, one size fits all policies never work effectively on a large scale(see higher suicide rates in comparable countries eg East vs West Germany).

    Socialism might work ok for a family, but it faces major computational problems on larger scales.

    A socialistic government has control over the economy, whereas the alternative does not. How can that not be considered authoritarian?

    (dodgily translated) Source:
    http://translate.google.com/transla...ssa-i-monismanien&sl=sv&tl=en&history_state0=

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomperipossa_in_Monismania
     
    #59 Architectonic, Oct 2, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
  20. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Wow. I'd have killed someone...

    Actually no. I'd have killed everyone in the government if they asked me to pay a 102% tax rate.
     

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