Reality and Faith
- Thread starter Skarekrow
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I've been avoiding opening this thread LOL.
I define faith as a strong belief in something, to the extent that it will manifest itself in some way, shape, or form.
An example I like to use is when it was forecasted to be overcast and cloudy the evening of the transit of Venus ; I put my faith not in the weather forecaster, but in the belief that if we were meant to witness the Transit, then Creator would would make it happen, and of course, the clouds parted for us less than 5 mins after I had this thought, and we all had a perfect view
I consider it subjective when you are alligning your faith with your beliefs for YOU and the occurances and situations, which you are the centre of. And also to an extent, those you are in contact with.
I consider it objective when you allign your faith with the world and universe and multiverse as a whole.
For instance, when I was on "guard duty" on election day, I prayed and prayed and had faith that no matter what, the results would be for the highest good of the world, not just for my good.
Of course, we have to acknowledge the dark in the light as well. There are people out there that will use faith negatively out of spite, greed, and vengeance.
I guess my reflection is that faith comes in whenever we ultimately have to rest on an intuition of any kind. Whether that be of consciousness or of the ability to discern scientific truths (despite Hume-esque skepticism).
Some things seem to have a relatively a priori character.
I think faith comes in whenever we ask what breathes fire into any logical description of reality -- for example, what lies between a purely abstract view of the equations of physics and their status as describing "reality". I'm not sure faith is a rational statement without reasonable evidence so much as some kind of precursor to reasoning -- not even necessarily an axiom or principle, but just an a priori intuition that is hard to articulate.
Some things seem to have a relatively a priori character.
I think faith comes in whenever we ask what breathes fire into any logical description of reality -- for example, what lies between a purely abstract view of the equations of physics and their status as describing "reality". I'm not sure faith is a rational statement without reasonable evidence so much as some kind of precursor to reasoning -- not even necessarily an axiom or principle, but just an a priori intuition that is hard to articulate.
Along these lines, I think the line between faith and superstition is when we postulate something belonging in the realm of empirical or logical justification without it...vs something more a priori
Where does faith in such a manner come from?
From within a person?
Is there and external factor besides a person’s attitude?
@Skarekrow -- you mean the kind I think is superstition, or the one I don't?
Either or.
And where is that line from faith to superstition - is that purely subjective do you think?
@charlatan
Let me expand on that.
Can someone have a belief or faith in a superstition, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, or is there such a thing as a “thought form” created via will through faith?
Let me expand on that.
Can someone have a belief or faith in a superstition, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, or is there such a thing as a “thought form” created via will through faith?
Well, I think that the kind of "faith" (which really is just a word for saying there are things we don't justify from first principles because they are the first fuzzy intuitions or principles) that we DO need is generally pretty universal -- it needn't be external or internal exclusively, it might be a mixture of both (e.g. a mixture of how we experience consciousness and properties of the external universe -- you need both to create our sense of what's "real").
The superstitious kind seems to me to generally be based on a devaluing of universality. That is, it tends to not to the highest degree strive for what we all can straightforwardly intuit (or deduce starting with those straightforward intuitions).
I tend to think most superstitious concepts of God are this kind of unreasonableness.
The superstitious kind seems to me to generally be based on a devaluing of universality. That is, it tends to not to the highest degree strive for what we all can straightforwardly intuit (or deduce starting with those straightforward intuitions).
I tend to think most superstitious concepts of God are this kind of unreasonableness.
So the self-fulfilling property part is interesting -- here's my thought on that. Let's note that I tend to see belief as both about propositions and about psychological attitudes. If something is just a matter of logical manipulation/implication, then there's not much controversy comparatively...on the other, if we at all have to decide if we believe something, there tends to be a line between intuition and argument that needs to be crossed.
Intuitions are generally things that seem plausible or not -- not things that are just deduced straightforwardly. As a result, there's some extent to which they're psychological. For instance, many of us, despite Humean skepticism, don't feel there's psychological FORCE to the idea of being overly skeptical about, say, physics.
The laws of science just seem to work -- even if we don't really get why, or find it philosophically hard to ground why they work, it stands to reason we live our lives by them.
With moral intuitions it's again pretty similar -- though more controversial relatively.
So, can someone sort of live in a way that an intuition becomes a reality in a self-fulfilling way? Probably yes, that's probably what happens in many mystics. Their psychology becomes so riddled with their visions that they see every event through that lens -- poetically, symbolically, and it's in this sense it becomes "self-fulfilling".
And this is the sense in which I think Jung was meaning
Intuitions are generally things that seem plausible or not -- not things that are just deduced straightforwardly. As a result, there's some extent to which they're psychological. For instance, many of us, despite Humean skepticism, don't feel there's psychological FORCE to the idea of being overly skeptical about, say, physics.
The laws of science just seem to work -- even if we don't really get why, or find it philosophically hard to ground why they work, it stands to reason we live our lives by them.
With moral intuitions it's again pretty similar -- though more controversial relatively.
So, can someone sort of live in a way that an intuition becomes a reality in a self-fulfilling way? Probably yes, that's probably what happens in many mystics. Their psychology becomes so riddled with their visions that they see every event through that lens -- poetically, symbolically, and it's in this sense it becomes "self-fulfilling".
And this is the sense in which I think Jung was meaning
@Skarekrow I wanted to comment on my take about how prayer can work, and the instances where in healing / prayer, there might be the opposite effect. This is only my take on it and it is influenced by my particular Buddhist faith and (some limited) experience as a Healer. The main point is that the intention that we have can and does make an impact. I don't know how this happens, but as we are all connected - and presumably energetically, that may explain why.
A brief mention of when prayer/healing does not work. I have prayed for people who were unwell to recover and they died anyway. Not that I thought (supposed) I had a super-human potential to 'save' or change the course of someone's destiny, but I did believe my positive prayer could help support someone's health or well-being.
In thinking about it and talking to others, and trying to learn about why prayers/ healings are sometimes unanswered I learnt that sometimes things happen for the right reason. A healing / prayer may speed up a process which would already happen anyway, if it was the right thing for that person's life. I'm not really talking about karma here, more that we don't really know, people's life path.
In the Buddhism I practice we call this strong intention 'Ichinen'. I have experience (although no 'proof') or my prayers having an effect in people's lives. One person had a very bad ulcer and was in hospital. I was scared for their well-being and chanted like crazy for them. They reported back to me that the doctors and nurses were amazed at their speedy healing and recovery. This has also happened in other things, although again no 'proof', helping a relative conceive through consistent prayer, people get jobs etc. However, despite the lack of proof I believe a positive intention, and energy sent out can and does have an effect.
Here is a definition of 'Ichinen'
Determination Will Get It Done
If you think you will fail, you will fail. You must embrace your goals, your targets, with every fibre of your being. Strive with all your might, night and day towards that goal and you are far more likely to succeed. And actually, only you decide when you have failed, when you give up trying."
It doesn't say it in this quote but this concept of Ichinen also applies to how you set your intention in prayer. I think you have to start from the point that it is possible. Paint a picture in your mind and set the intention like it's already happened. It chimes with the law of attraction, because if there is doubt in your mind, that is what you will get back.
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Exactly
@Serenity, I agree but how do you think that works, from your perspective? I ask because although I agree I can't formulate or put into words why. Does relief from suffering qualify as healing, or is it something else?
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I would say that it qualifies not so much as healing in the physical sense, but healing in the spiritual sense as if you were helping a baby bird crack through it’s shell, or helping someone realize their potential...it’s is ultimate (at least as far as we know) potentiality.
I know for example, I could never work in Hospice care, not because I don’t think I could help people, but because I think I would destroy myself and either become very cynical and jaded, emotionally unavailable, or just the total opposite of that spectrum.
It’s hard to say how one will react to moments of death and dying...I have seen some bizarre reactions from people.
I can’t tell you how many “Grandpa won’t wake up from his nap in his easy chair.” calls I have run as a Paramedic, just to show up to take a pulse and feel their now cold body (meaning it’s been hours) - it just doesn’t register that Grandpa is way beyond CPR at this point.
I wholly feel that when it’s someone’s time then it’s their time and nothing you do is going to change that...if you are going to pray for someone in such a state, then pray that they are received into loving arms and that their passage over is not uncomfortable, that they are out of pain.
Miraculous things...I’ve seen a few cases that I thought for sure someone is not coming back from the point of doing CPR...but I could never say that it was because of some divine intervention...maybe it was, maybe my hands and the hands of all those who helped to bring someone back from death are guided to do so unbeknownst to us all?
Most of the time, I found myself as a witness to death in those situations...our bodies are so fragile and yet so resilient all at once.
If that was my role to play at that moment in the grand scheme, then so be it.
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Healing in the spiritual sense in that, in dying the person is moving on to the next stage of their evolution / incarnation. Is this what you mean by 'a baby bird cracking through it's shell?' Some people say we learn different things in each incarnation and that Earth is a 'School' in this sense. Death is also suppost to be a great relief, and (usually) not the scary thing people imagine it to be, but a peaceful beautiful re-connection with source. I suppose that looking at it in this way, in death there could be a letting go of the egos painful struggles in life, and a sense of reconnection and reintegration.
I agree with you on your thoughts.
Imho, some people must come back and reincarnate...either because their lives were cut short by something that interrupted their life plan, or they fucked it up somehow and didn’t learn what they needed to learn, but I think we will have the choice (most of us), just as we have free will here - to reincarnate or not.
And also a choice about which planet to reincarnate to I've heard.
From my perspective, whenever I transmit healing (whether it be in dreams, in person, or via distance), I always intend and pray that the outcome of it be for the highest good of the person. Sometimes it's death(when I sense someone is going to die, I do Transition Reiki in addition to their healing as a means of helping them find love, peace, and acceptance, which will make their transition happen more smoothly), sometimes they have a chronic issue that paves the way to a deeper lesson they need to learn in their lifetime in which that aiment is a reminder of. Sometimes the healing serves as a mean to help one realize their own innate healing power, not just of body, but of mind and spirit.
I look at healing not as a "BAM! You are Healed" (though sometimes that has happened lol), but as a series of making "shifts" happen to promote a healthier energy/vibration for that person, and it's a team effort between (Me, My Team, Them, and Their Team)