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Reality and Faith

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Skarekrow, Dec 21, 2016.

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  1. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    This thread has been started as a platform to discuss the nature of reality and the role that faith plays or does not play.
    How do you define “faith”?
    Does it have positive or negative associations and why such a perception?
    Is it purely subjective?




    @wolly.green
    Feel free to expand on the OP question for this thread.
     
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  2. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    I would like to present as some possible evidence into the action that faith has on reality with the following links.

    Healing at a Distance
    Astin et al (2000). The Efficacy of “Distant Healing”: A Systematic Review of Randomized Trials

    Leibovici (2001). Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial

    Krucoff et al (2001).Integrative noetic therapies as adjuncts to percutaneous intervention during unstable coronary syndromes: Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Training (MANTRA) feasibility pilot

    Radin et al (2004). Possible effects of healing intention on cell cultures and truly random events.

    Krucoff et al (2005). Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II randomised study

    Benson et al (2006). Study of the therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients

    Masters & Spielmans (2007). Prayer and health: Review, meta-analysis, and research agenda

    Radin et al (2008). Compassionate intention as a therapeutic intervention by partners of cancer patients: Effects of distant intention on the patients’ autonomic nervous system.

    Schlitz et al (2012). Distant healing of surgical wounds: An exploratory study.

    Radin et al (2015). Distant healing intention therapies: An overview of the scientific evidence

    Physiological correlations at a distance
    Duane & Behrendt (1965). Extrasensory electroencephalographic induction between identical twins.

    Grinberg-Zylberbaum et al (1994). The Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox in the Brain: The transferred potential

    Wiseman & Schlitz (1997). Experimenter effects and the remote detection of staring.

    Standish et al (2003). Evidence of correlated functional magnetic resonance imaging signals between distant human brains.

    Wackermann et al (2003). Correlations between brain electrical activities of two spatially separated human subjects

    Schmidt et al (2004). Distant intentionality and the feeling of being stared at: Two meta-analyses

    Radin (2004). Event related EEG correlations between isolated human subjects.

    Standish et al (2004). Electroencephalographic evidence of correlated event-related signals between the brains of spatially and sensory isolated human subjects

    Richards et al (2005). Replicable functional magnetic resonance imaging evidence of correlated brain signals between physically and sensory isolated subjects.

    Achterberg et al (2005). Evidence for correlations between distant intentionality and brain function in recipients: A functional magnetic resonance imaging analysis

    Radin (2005). The sense of being stared at: A preliminary meta-analysis.

    Radin & Schlitz (2005). Gut feelings, intuition, and emotions: An exploratory study.

    Schlitz et al (2006). Of two minds: Skeptic-proponent collaboration within parapsychology.

    Moulton & Kosslyn (2008). Using neuroimaging to resolve the psi debate.

    Ambach (2008). Correlations between the EEGs of two spatially separated subjects − a replication study.

    Hinterberger (2010). Searching for neuronal markers of psi: A summary of three studies measuring electrophysiology in distant participants.

    Schmidt (2012). Can we help just by good intentions? A meta-analysis of experiments on distant intention effects

    Jensen & Parker (2012). Entangled in the womb? A pilot study on the possible physiological connectedness between identical twins with different embryonic backgrounds.

    Parker & Jensen (2013). Further possible physiological connectedness between identical twins: The London study.


    Telepathy & ESP
    Targ & Puthoff (1974). Information transmission under conditions of sensory shielding.

    Puthoff & Targ (1976). A perceptual channel for information transfer over kilometer distance: Historical perspective and recent research

    Eisenberg & Donderi (1979). Telepathic transfer of emotional information in humans.

    Bem & Honorton (1994). Does psi exist?

    Hyman (1994). Anomaly or artifact? Comments on Bem and Honorton

    Bem (1994). Response to Hyman

    Milton & Wiseman (1999). Does Psi Exist? Lack of Replication of an Anomalous Process of Information Transfer

    Sheldrake & Smart (2000). Testing a return-anticipating dog, Kane.

    Sheldrake & Smart (2000). A dog that seems to know when his owner to coming home: Videotaped experiments and observations.

    Storm & Ertel (2001). Does Psi Exist? Comments on Milton and Wiseman's (1999) Meta-Analysis of Ganzfeld Research

    Milton & Wiseman (2001). Does Psi Exist? Reply to Storm and Ertel (2001)

    Sheldrake & Morgana (2003). Testing a language-using parrot for telepathy.

    Sheldrake & Smart (2003). Videotaped experiments on telephone telepathy.

    Sherwood & Roe (2003). A Review of Dream ESP Studies Conducted Since the Maimonides Dream ESP Programme

    Delgado-Romero & Howard (2005). Finding and Correcting Flawed Research Literatures

    Hastings (2007). Comment on Delgado-Romero and Howard

    Radin (2007). Finding Or Imagining Flawed Research?

    Storm et al (2010). Meta-Analysis of Free-Response Studies, 1992–2008: Assessing the Noise Reduction Model in Parapsychology

    Storm et al (2010). A Meta-Analysis With Nothing to Hide: Reply to Hyman (2010)

    Tressoldi (2011). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence: the case of non-local perception, a classical and Bayesian review of evidences

    Tressoldi et al (2011). Mental Connection at Distance: Useful for Solving Difficult Tasks?

    Williams (2011). Revisiting the Ganzfeld ESP Debate: A Basic Review and Assessment

    Rouder et al (2013). A Bayes Factor Meta-Analysis of Recent Extrasensory Perception Experiments: Comment on Storm, Tressoldi, and Di Risio (2010)

    Storm et al (2013). Testing the Storm et al. (2010) Meta-Analysis Using Bayesian and Frequentist Approaches: Reply to Rouder et al. (2013)



    General Overviews & Critiques
    Utts (1996). An assessment of the evidence for psychic functioning

    Alcock (2003). Give the null hypothesis a chance

    Parker & Brusewitz (2003). A compendium of the evidence for psi

    Carter (2010). Heads I lose, tails you win.

    McLuhan (no date). Fraud in psi research.


    Survival of Consciousness
    van Lommel et al (2001). Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands

    van Lommel (2006). Near-death experience, consciousness, and the brain

    Beischel & Schwartz (2007). Anomalous information reception by research mediums demonstrated using a novel triple-blind protocol

    Greyson (2010). Seeing dead people not known to have died: “Peak in Darien” experiences

    Kelly (2010). Some directions for mediumship research

    Kelly & Arcangel (2011). An investigation of mediums who claim to give information about deceased persons

    Nahm et al (2011). Terminal lucidity: A review and a case collection.

    Facco & Agrillo (2012). Near-death experiences between science and prejudice

    Matlock (2012). Bibliography of reincarnation resources online (articles and books, all downloadable)

    Beischel, J., Boccuzzi, M., Biuso, M., & Rock, A. J. (2015). Anomalous information reception by research mediums under blinded conditions II: Replication and extension. EXPLORE: The Journal of Science & Healing, 11(2), 136-142. doi: 10.1016/j.explore.2015.01.001


    Precognition & Presentiment
    Honorton & Ferrari (1989). “Future telling”: A meta-analysis of forced-choice precognition experiments, 1935-1987

    Spottiswoode & May (2003). Skin Conductance Prestimulus Response: Analyses, Artifacts and a Pilot Study

    Radin (2004). Electrodermal presentiments of future emotions.

    McCraty et al (2004). Electrophysiological Evidence of Intuition: Part 1. The Surprising Role of the Heart

    McCraty et al (2004). Electrophysiological Evidence of Intuition: Part 2. A System-Wide Process?

    Radin & Lobach (2007). Toward understanding the placebo effect: Investigating a possible retrocausal factor.

    Radin & Borges (2009). Intuition through time: What does the seer see?

    Bem (2011). Feeling the future: Experimental evidence for anomalous retroactive influences on cognition and affect

    Bem et al (2011). Must psychologists change the way they analyze their data?

    Bierman (2011). Anomalous switching of the bi-stable percept of a Necker Cube

    Radin et al (2011). Electrocortical activity prior to unpredictable stimuli in meditators and non-meditators.

    Radin (2011). Predicting the unpredictable: 75 years of experimental evidence

    Tressoldi et al (2011). Let your eyes predict : Prediction accuracy of pupillary responses to random alerting and neutral sounds

    Galek et al (2012). Correcting the past: Failures to replicate psi

    Mossbridge et al (2012). Predictive physiological anticipation preceding seemingly unpredictable stimuli: a meta-analysis

    Bem et al (2015). Feeling the future: A meta-analysis of 90 experiments on the anomalous anticipation of random future events

    Theory
    Josephson & Pallikari-Viras (1991). Biological utilisation of quantum nonlocality

    May et al (1995). Decision augmentation theory: Towards a model of anomalous mental phenomena

    Houtkooper (2002). Arguing for an observational theory of paranormal phenomena

    Bierman (2003). Does consciousness collapse the wave-packet?

    Dunne & Jahn (2005). Consciousness, information, and living systems

    Henry (2005). The mental universe

    Hiley & Pylkkanen (2005). Can mind affect matter via active information?

    Lucadou et al (2007). Synchronistic phenomena as entanglement correlations in generalized quantum theory

    Rietdijk (2007). Four-dimensional physics, nonlocal coherence, and paranormal phenomena

    Bierman (2010). Consciousness induced restoration of time symmetry (CIRTS ): A psychophysical theoretical perspective

    Tressoldi et al (2010). Extrasensory perception and quantum models of cognition.

    Tressoldi (2012). Replication unreliability in psychology: elusive phenomena or “elusive” statistical power?


    Mind-Matter Interaction
    Crookes (1874). Researches in the phenomena of spiritualism

    Crookes (1874). Notes of séances with DDH

    Medhurst & Goldney (1964). William Crookes and the physical phenomena of mediumship.

    Merrifield (1885/1971). Merrifield’s report (on D. D. Home)

    Braude (1985). The enigma of Daniel Home.

    Zorab (1971). Were D. D. Home’s ‘spirit hands” ever fraudulently produced?

    Jahn (1982). The persistent paradox of psychic phenomena: An engineering perspective.

    Inglis (1983). Review of “The spiritualists. The passion for the occult in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries by Ruth Brandon.”

    Schmidt (1987). The strange properties of psychokinesis.

    Schmidt (1990). Correlation between mental processes and external random events

    Radin & Nelson (1989). Evidence for consciousness-related anomalies in random physical systems

    Radin & Ferrari (1991). Effects of consciousness on the fall of dice: A meta-analysis

    Jahn et al (1997). Correlations of random binary sequences with pre-stated operator intention: A review of a 12-year program.

    Nelson et al (2002). Correlations of continuous random data with major world events.

    Crawford et al (2003). Alterations in random event measures associated with a healing practice

    Freedman et al (2003). Effects of frontal lobe lesions on intentionality and random physical phenomena

    Bierman (2004). Does consciousness collapse the wave function?

    Jahn & Dunne (2005). The PEAR Proposition.

    Bosch et al (2006). Examining psychokinesis: The interaction of human intention with random number generators

    Radin et al (2006). Reexamining psychokinesis.

    Radin et al (2006). Assessing the evidence for mind-matter interaction effects.

    Radin (2006). Experiments testing models of mind-matter interaction.

    Radin. (2008). Testing nonlocal observation as a source of intuitive knowledge.

    Nelson & Bancel (2011). Effects of mass consciousness: Changes in random data during global events.

    Radin et al (2012). Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern: Six experiments

    Radin et al (2013). Psychophysical interactions with a double-slit interference pattern

    Shiah & Radin (2013). A randomized trial investigating the roles of intention and belief on mood while drinking tea.

    Radin et al (2015). Psychophysical interactions with a single-photon double-slit optical system.

    Radin et al (2016). Psychophysical modulation of fringe visibility in a distant double-slit optical system.


    Potential Applications
    Carpenter (2011). Laboratory psi effects may be put to practical use: Two pilot studies

    Schwartz (1980/2000). Location and reconstruction of a Byzantine structure … [by remote viewing]

    Beischel, J., Mosher, C. & Boccuzzi, M. (2014-2015). The possible effects on bereavement of assisted after-death communication during readings with psychic mediums: A continuing bonds perspective. Omega: Journal of Death and Dying, 70(2), 169-194. doi: 10.2190/OM.70.2.b
     
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  3. Sandie33

    Sandie33 Love Often & Absolutely ♡
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    Much to sift through, thank you ;)
     
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  4. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    What I find even more interesting is this...
    The majority of healing that is documented as seemingly influenced by prayer is that it does show some significant measurable effects.
    The curious part is that some showed an opposite effect (though in only a few studies).
    I wonder why?
    What made the difference?
    (not expecting an answer, just food for thought)
     
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  5. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    This is in response to what you said previously!


    The brain and mind are separate, yes. In the same way that a computer and computer program are separate. Its the mind telling the brain what to do, not the other way around. Now since your mind consists of immaterial things like ideas and beliefs, it is these very ideas and beliefs that tell your brain what to do. But if ideas tell your brain what to do, then they must also tell your body what to do and how to act. What happens when your mind is guided by faith? Your actions will be guided by them a well! But what if your faith is inconsistent with reality? Then your actions will be too. And here is the problem, beliefs affect what you do, not JUST what you think. I suspect there is no need to explain why this is important. Notice here that proof and evidence never factor in anywhere. That is because proof is quite irrelevant here.

    Also, your characterization of rationality is quite limiting. Consider philosophy for a moment. Is it possible to prove a philosophical theory? Is it possible to use evidence to critically analyze one? No and no. The reason is first that proof is impossible outside mathematics, and second that critical analysis means something different in philosophy than in science. In short, rationality has nothing to do with proof and evidence. Rationality is merely a means through which one discovers truth, science just happens to need evidence to do it. So again, what is the difference between between faith and rationality.
     
    #5 wolly.green, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
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  6. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    "Rationality is merely a means through which one discovers truth, science just happens to need evidence to do it.”

    Sounds like "blind” faith to me, if you do not demand scientific evidence.
    And we don’t know how immaterial these things actually are...we do not have a working model of how our observation of reality changes it/us, but we do know that our observations do have a measurable effect.

    We are not trying to prove any philosophical theory...I am not at any rate, but I do offer actual physical, testable, replicated, scientific studies that show that things like prayer make a measurable difference...so I’m not trying to prove anything firstly, because there is a huge empty space of knowledge that is lacking in our understanding of how even our brain and mind function...much less how space/time and our universe came to exist and continue to do so.
    So you can only take rationality so far, and then you are into the realm of theory.
    Which is only one step, amongst many, coming from many different aspects and angles, moving to find a working model.

    "So again, what is the difference between between faith and rationality?”


    It really depends on what you believe faith to be.
    If you narrowly look at is always as “blind faith”...blindly following something or someone without question of critical thought then I disagree with your POV.

    Some people cannot see a difference and some can see stark differences...it’s a subjective thought process.
    Take me for example...I was raised in the Mormon church, which actually was a quite good way to be raised in many ways...they are very family-centric, don’t drink, smoke, watch negative movies, drink caffeinated beverages, don’t swear, etc., etc..

    My older brother came out as being gay to my parents when I was about 15...he was 17.
    Well, despite what the religion espouses about how family and keeping family together is the most important thing...they are staunchly anti-gay, and have poured millions of dollars into anti-gay legislature, and have destroyed millions of families with their rhetoric....anyhow...my parents chose my brother over the religion.

    Now some might say that was because of a lack of faith...I say the opposite.
    It took a great deal of personal faith in what my parents believed (that my brother is and has always been a good person and he did not chose his sexual preferences and no God being worth a damn would condemn someone for such a thing) to be true vs. what they are told to blindly follow by the church which my mother grew up in and was quite a big deal for her to leave.
    (Never let your morals get in the way of doing the right thing.)
    I have my own faith in what the true nature of reality is because of my own subjective experiences that have shown me what you see is NOT always what you get/have.

    You look at the brain as the hardware and the mind as the software basically from what I gather?
    I don’t have too different of an idea about how it all functions...I do view the physical brain as the hardware yes.
    But I do not view the mind as software confined to the limits of the skull.
    I view the brain as a receiver of mind, of consciousness, and the brain as the interpreter/reducing valve of the information available for us to detect.

    IMHO, faith is our ability to control our reality, it is not a feeling like love or contempt, it is an action, it is the physical manifestation of our will over reality.

    "What happens when your mind is guided by faith? Your actions will be guided by them a well! But what if your faith is inconsistent with reality? Then your actions will be too. And here is the problem, beliefs affect what you do, not JUST what you think.”

    Everyone is somewhat guided by faith if you take it to mean what the general population define it as.
    Of course, we all have faith that the sun will rise the next day...but, that isn’t blind faith, that is educated faith...it is faith within reason.
    I am a firm believer in critical thinking being an essential part of finding my definition of faith.

    Faith doesn’t have to be intangible...it isn’t some magical-thinking disorder.
    Take a look at the story of Jesus walking on water...or other various religious figures who reportedly could preform superhuman feats such as levitation, the direct manipulation and replication of matter (Jesus and the fishes)....etc.
    Who is to say that the potential for such mastery is impossible?
    Of course if your faith is inconsistent with reality, and you try to fly off the top of a cliff, then you will splat.
    But part of the reason I listed the above studies ^^^ is to show that faith is not intangible.
    Beliefs do affect what you do, and your beliefs also affect your reality (and others) imho...I don’t go so far as to be as to eliminate any possibility...we as humans are so self-limiting...that doesn’t mean that I also blindly believe everything either.

    “You create your own reality” came from Jane Roberts back in the 1970s...but other people have expressed similar ideas for several millennia.
    The Buddha said, “What you dwell upon you become.”
    Jesus said, “It is done unto you as you believe.”
    Hindu mysticism from Shankaracharya says, “Whatever a person’s mind dwells on intensely and with firm resolve, that is exactly what he becomes.”
    It says in the Talmud, “We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are.”

    More recent sages like Ralph Waldo Emerson have said, “We become what we think about all day long.”
    Walt Disney said, “If you can dream it you can do it.”
    Napoleon Hill said, “Whatever the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve.”
    Norman Vincent Peale said, “Change your thoughts and you change your world.”
    Wayne Dyer says, “You see it when you believe it.”
    And let’s not forget Oprah who repeats this message frequently by saying things like, “Remember, you are co-creating your life with the energy of your own intentions.”

    This is all the physicality of “faith”.
     
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    #6 Skarekrow, Dec 21, 2016
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  7. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Sounds like "blind” faith to me, if you do not demand scientific evidence. And we don’t know how immaterial these things actually are...we do not have a working model of how our observation of reality changes it/us.

    Do you consider mathematics and philosophy blind faith? Neither disciplines require evidence or observation. By the way, did you know empiricism has been refuted by David Deutsch (A physicist), Immanuel Kant (A philosopher), Karl Popper (A mathematician). It turns out observation is not really at the core of rationality.

    I’m not trying to prove anything firstly

    That's good. Because proof is impossible outside mathematics. By the way, the creation of a new theory is the ultimate goal in science.

    my own subjective experiences that have shown me what you see is NOT always what you get/have.


    Well of course reality is not self evident. Scientists often forget this (philosophers don't). And when they do, it leads to stagnation and the death of progress. A perfect example is logical positivism; which almost killed science.

    faith is our ability to control our reality, it is not a feeling like love or contempt, it is an action, it is the physical manifestation of our will over reality.

    This is an interesting characterization. Very well, I don't see anything wrong with this.

    Im starting to see that our views are not so different, I have no issues with anything you said in that last part. However, I do deeply disagree with your understanding of rationality. Your views are very common and almost lead to the death of science, philosophy and mathematics. The story is long and sometimes esoteric. If you're interested just look up logical positivism. :)
     
    #7 wolly.green, Dec 21, 2016
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  8. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
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    @Skarekrow
    Faith to me is an active/pursuing hope that there is more to reality, than the most superficial interactions could uncover.
     
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  9. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    While we can both parade out various physicists to argue the “hard question” of consciousness.
    People like Niels Bohr or Schrödinger come to mind -

    “I myself find the division of the world into an objective and a subjective side much too arbitrary.
    The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer.

    But that does not mean that it is not a genuine reality.
    And splitting this reality into an objective and a subjective side won't get us very far.”
    ~ Niels Bohr

    And observation may not be at the core of reality, but it has been shown and theorized in various ways that observation has a measurable effect.
    Is it a wave? Is it a particle? It’s both, and it’s neither, until conscious focus is put on it.
    Now this is refuted and supported by all kinds of people with degrees that took longer than my own.
    That doesn’t mean there are no trees in the forest because there are no observers, it only means we probably don’t have as large a scale effect as we may think...then again, perhaps not.
    The opposite of being correct is usually being wrong...but sometimes, it can also be correct....it depends on our perspective yes?
    There can be two truths...neither of us has to be wrong (because ultimately we won’t ever know who is right), we only need find a bridge to connect the ideas and entertain it to see if it has merit or should be altered, explored, etc.
    "what you think matters, in fact it forms matter”
    ~ Vajra Ghanta Gadan

    Bohr also said - "If QM hasn’t shocked you yet, you don’t understand it.”
    lol

    “We have been to the moon, we have charted the depths of the ocean and the heart of the atom, but we have a fear of looking inward to ourselves because we sense that is where all the contradictions flow together.” ~Terence McKenna

    You are coming at this with more of a classical materialist reductionist approach.
    I don’t think reducing things to smaller and smaller bits will reveal some great key of knowledge we have yet to understand or discover.
    I wrote a paper in college on the correlations between reaching a state of Samadhi, and suggested that after years and years of meditation that a monk puts him/herself through, that perhaps he has trained his very own brain to release large enough amounts of the proper neurochemicals and they would basically hallucinate via their own body-made drugs.
    I still can’t rule that out as a possibility....but I also have the subjective experiences of being outside of my own body, as well as various other paranormal, possibly PSI related phenomena....as have millions of others down through the ages.

    One of the most recent theories is that the microtubules within the brain can act as a biologic “quantum” computer, but that the information is not necessarily stored in the physical brain itself, the electromagnetic field within the tubules keeps the information contained until the moment of death when such information (a soul) is released....Dr. Pim Van Lommel.
    Also your brain kicks out a huge dose of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine or DMT as you are dying...there is also the emerging theory that it is this biochemical “kick” that pushes the soul from the physical body.
    (just thought that was interesting)

    So I am in agreement that we are not far off, but there are some fundamental differences in our thought processes.
    But this is how we learn and explore...how boring would the universe be if it has already been figured out?
    Many religions take that view...bury your head in the sand.
    Why?
    Because to them...it is a failing of faith to be critical...I rather think that someone who believes in a supreme being would also have the thought that we were given minds that can self-reflect and think critically for a reason?
    Didn’t Jesus feel doubt and pray to his Father in the garden before the night before his physical death?
    I could never support a “God” who will strike you dead for questioning him or the nature of reality, much less blindly believing in parables that have been re-told for hundreds of years before being written down, then altered and changed and omitted to grant maximum control to the religious authority.

    "What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind.”
    ~ T.H. Key
     
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    #9 Skarekrow, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
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  10. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    That is an agreeable definition.
    But you wouldn’t call that “blind faith” would you?
    I mean...you probably did not just one day decide on that theory and go balls out for it.
    It probably was with much consideration, thought, and “soul searching”.
    So there must be something more to faith than just an active/pursuing hope...there is probably solid reasoning behind what you consider your own “faith” or acting in faith.
    I mean...you wouldn’t continue to have faith for the sake of having faith...it’s a give and receive thing.
    If people...logical people...sane people, can find faith a worthy pursuit, then even those who have difficulties seeing the value, being of an intelligent and critically-thinking personage - revisit the material aspects of faith? Or at least the concept in general?
    It seems that Wolly is being self-limiting to me...(I don’t mean that in a bad way Wolly).

    It seems that people would cease to have faith if faith didn’t pay off for people somehow, human nature being what it is.
     
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  11. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
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    I suppose I would call it blind faith, insofar as I pursue what is unknown/unseen, and insofar as I look for reality beyond what is familiar and obvious.

    Colloquially, blind faith refers to unexamined belief. I don't call such a thing faith. If there is an assumption that there is nothing to pursue, or learn about God/reality, it denies that there is a reality beyond one's imaginary constructs; this falsely equivocates between faith and creativity of imagination. On the other hand, if "faith" holds that God/reality is so unknowable, that study of the subject is futile, I call this religious despair, or religious sloth; what is faith if not related to the pursuit of God/reality? Pursuit of "heavenly rewards", disconnected from pursuing God is no different to everyday cupidity/avarice/greed/etc., except that the objects of desire are more fantastical.
     
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  12. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    No no reductionism is an intellectual sin. There is so many things that I disagree with here that before getting started, have to know; why did you bring quantum physics and reductionism into this? What made you think: I am a reductionist and was talking about quantum physics?
     
    #12 wolly.green, Dec 22, 2016
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  13. Sandie33

    Sandie33 Love Often & Absolutely ♡
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    To alter reality & hide the truth :)
     
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    Skarekrow

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    I can go along with that line of thinking.
    I was inferring that you do NOT have “blind faith” as it is popularly defined...no need to explain.
     
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    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    It seemed as if you were coming in from a purely materialist science perspective.
    I was offering alternative theories and evidence as something that may interest you and others who might read this thread.
    Please don’t think I was attacking your belief system...I was only explaining my own in more depth that you might understand where I stand.
    Cheers.
     
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    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    No doubt...I would encourage any person who considers themselves to be a true “Christian” to read the Biblical Apocrypha.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
    http://apocrypha.org

    The omitted chapters of the Bible are quite illuminating in the sense you are speaking.
    They contain such terrible suggestions such as God being everything including you.
     
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  17. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    Oh ok, well I'm not a reductionist or a materialist. This is why I keep pushing back against your strictly evidence and measurement based interpretation of rationality. The notion that you need measurement or observation to be rational is very materialistic.

    In either case, Neil Bohr's interpretation of quantum physics violate the laws of logic. It may make sense to do so, but you will need to argue for this with great care. This is why I do not like Bohr.
     
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    Skarekrow

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    In what ways is quantum physics violated...excuse me, logic?
    (especially since we have a limited picture of how it works)
    Are you anti-observer-effect?
     
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  19. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
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    I think the sense of feeling around, blind in the unfamiliar is an important part of faith... so I wanted to say yes to having blind faith.
     
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  20. wolly.green

    wolly.green Permanent Fixture

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    The fact that something can be a particle and a wave at the same time is a logical contradiction. This view of quantum physics actual emerged as popular quite suddenly. Most physicists at the time believed that we can never have knowledge of what we can not observe. And thus because we can not observe what the quantum world is doing when we are not looking, our theories must rely solely on appearances alone; on what appears to be the case. But this view is quite clearly flawed. Consider the theory of relativity. We do not ever observe the buckling and bending of space time; we can never, even in principle measure it. But we can know about it; and we can test its logical consequences. It is possible to "know" what is happening when we are not looking, even though we can not "observe" or "measure" it. Therefore, we do not need to violate the laws of logic to explain the quantum world. You could try to if you like, but you must do so only with a good explanation.
     
    #20 wolly.green, Dec 22, 2016
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