People are rational | INFJ Forum

People are rational

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by TinyBubbles, Sep 16, 2010.

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  1. TinyBubbles

    TinyBubbles anarchist

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    i think more often than not, people weigh the pros and cons of potential actions and act accordingly... in line with their own idea of what will give them the greatest advantage, even if that idea only makes sense to them. i think it would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to do something consciously that you don't believe will be advantageous to you in some way. *shrugs* what do you think?

    can you *choose* to be crazy?
     
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    #1 TinyBubbles, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  2. KazeCraven

    KazeCraven Graduated from Typology : May 2011
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    More or less, though what someone considers to be advantageous varies so much that the original connotation is lost.

    Reminds me of how philosophical arguments show that everyone acts 'selfishly', but then they're using the term in quite a different way that one would expect.
     
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  3. Gaze

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    Yeah, i think there is tendency to conflate self-interest (which is not necessarily a bad thing) with selfishness which is more often associated with greed or blatant disregard for someone else's interest in order to further one's own goals.
     
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    #3 Gaze, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  4. KazeCraven

    KazeCraven Graduated from Typology : May 2011
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    If so, I think you'd have to be able to alter your current state of mind such that you are no longer in control of the choice. Otherwise, I think you'd just be acting or pretending to be crazy.
     
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  5. DoveAlexa

    DoveAlexa Chaz's Lovey Bunny
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    Well, you can be more and more spontaneous, impulsive and adventurous than you use to be, and the more you do it the more your personality changes permanently. I use to be very non-expressive as a child, out of fear of ridicule, but now I'm outright obnoxious.
     
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  6. OP
    TinyBubbles

    TinyBubbles anarchist

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    sure, but you'd be being all those things because you think you'll be happier or get something out of it... which is completely rational. i think you couldn't suddenly become spontaneous while still holding the same views of the pros vs. cons of spontaneity as you did before, unless you actually lost control of your actions (ie. had an physical/mental impairment of some sort)
     
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  7. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    I agree, even people who ARE irrational tend to make irrational choices based on what they believe is right or logical TO THEM, which is the operative aspect of it. People tend to be self centered and self focused and act accordingly. I think people can put things ahead of them and thier well-being, but that is still a form of being self centered in that they choose to value some external item more then thier own gratification which in turn gives them MORE gratification. I have done this a lot in the form of self sacrifice to help my brother, or a loved one or a friend because I knew I could do without and they couldnt and I would rather see me handle the hardship then watch in agony as they fail to. I guess on a basic level its selfless and crazy and illogical but on a more long term timeline in accordance to my own inner will, its very selfish.
     
    #7 Billy, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  8. OP
    TinyBubbles

    TinyBubbles anarchist

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    oh i can so relate to this, it's horrible being witness to someone else's suffering, especially if you love that person. i agree it's self motivated to help them in the end, since you'd be alleviating your own pain of feeling guilty or whatever in the process, but i'm not sure i would consider that selfish. it's mutually beneficial, certainly, but they wouldn't have been helped without you.... so maybe it's a justifiable sort of selfishness? :/ or rather, the closest we can get to being "good"?
     
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  9. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    Not all selfishness is inherently bad. I fantasize about being able to give up my life to save someone I love, mostly because If I didn't do it I would hate myself for all time for not doing it. (also its the ultimate expression of love, that I value their life more then my own that I would willingly step into my grave to hold their time of dying back, even if for only a little while.)But if that did happen, am sure the person I saved wouldn't be mad that I did it, so yeah it would be selfish AND selfless on my end (mutually beneficial as you say) but it would still be motivated from my own ideas and thoughts and feelings. Which in a sense just makes it selfish, I dont think we can really do anything truly selfless, unless we are being controlled by an external force.
     
    #9 Billy, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  10. bagelriffic

    bagelriffic Community Member

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    are you implying guilt is the reason a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his platoon? come on man have a little faith. he doesn't need to know the people he's saving to be motivated to save them. and the end result is death, thus ensuring no reward.

    you guys talk about rationalizing pros vs cons but what about the stranger that runs into a burning building to help those inside when its equally if not more rational to wait for or call the fire dept while preserving himself? the outcome's not set in stone, who's to say the fire dept wouldn't be there in time, thus saving himself the risk.

    the point is, i don't think people can know all the pro's and con's of a given situation, and yet act not according to, but inspite of this fact.

    rationally speaking this isn't rational, especially when ones life is on the line, therefore disrailing the concept of all good deeds being selfish bc a person is acting despite uncertainty. unless of course the above mentioned are considered momentarily insane for acting this way it doesn't fit into the all deeds are selfish argument.

    what about the terminator in T2? he was programmed to not be able to kill himself and yet allowed sarah to lower him into molten lava to prevent skynet from obtaining any information from him. but who knows, they never may have.

    sarah conner: the future is not set..
     
  11. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    No, I didnt imply that at all. And saving fellow soldiers vs saving someone you love is sort of different. I dont think I would dive on a grenade to save a bunch of soldiers if I was one. I would step in front of a bullet to save my loved one though.

    I dont think most people rationalize it that way. I think that stranger sees a problem and reacts because not reacting is not in his nature because he values the safety of others above his safety. Most of that stems from wanting to do the right thing or wanting not to do the wrong thing. So I guess there is some guilt in it.

    I think youre right in that its a snap decision, most people know however what they value before said event goes down. For example I know that I value the lives of my loved ones more then my own, I dont need to think it over if the choice is in front of me to sacrifice mine for theirs, I already know the answer.

    Actually it does fit, if you value someone elses safety over your own, you will act accordingly, thats rational. Most strangers wont run into a burning building to save strangers, family will though. there is a reason for that.

    The terminator was a cyborg, living tissue over a metal exoskeleton. Joking aside, in the deleted scenes they removed the block skynet put on his neuronet processor and he was able to be intelligent enough to learn about self sacrifice for the greater good. In essence, he was being selfish to destroy himself with some help for his own logical programming to get the mission accomplished.

    Not according to T3

    Terminator: Judgement day was only delayed, it was inevitable.
     
  12. bagelriffic

    bagelriffic Community Member

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    right but this is how you ended the exact same post

    regardless of whether or not You would, this implies his action falls under the same set of reasoning your own selfish sacrifice pretains to if not the exact circumstances.

    i would agree but is it not possible to act against our values in terms of self preservation? and if so then isn't there still a choice involved? ex fight or flight. we may not believe in fighting, but does that mean we have no choice but to be a slave to this valued aspect of ourselves and become a punching bag? we can act against our own values if the situation calls for it.

    see above mentioned paragraph.

    i refuse to acknowledge this as an official terminator installment, thus denying Terminator was or will ever be a trilogy. James cameron had nothing to do with it to my knowledge, i wash my hands of it.

    also i never saw those deleted scenes, bc they were deleted i will refrain from comment.
     
  13. KazeCraven

    KazeCraven Graduated from Typology : May 2011
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    Bah, even if we could achieve true selflessness, is that even a good (desirable) thing?

    It might be beneficial to others, but the 'selfless' person has a self too.
     
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  14. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    Yes that they put something external over themselves. One for love, one for duty.


    If you value someone elses life over your own it doesnt mean you are not being selfish, you are still choosing yes, but making the choice based on a personal belief as to whats more important to you. Believe it or not, self sacrifice is typically the easier choice.





    You can refuse if you want, but it still is though, technically, many directors and producers move on and leave thier franchises i the hands of others, Star Wars for example.


    There was an extended scene where Sarah Conner and John Conner remove the CPU from the machine and reset it so it doesnt block his AI form learning on its own. Skynet has all model 101s set to protocol instead of learning.
     
  15. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    People are just getting upset over the label of selfish because it has a negative connotation, not all selfishness is wrong.
     
  16. KazeCraven

    KazeCraven Graduated from Typology : May 2011
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    Indeed.

    Also, I don't understand the logic behind being selfless beyond the point of nurturing one's own Self. If another person's Self is worth sacrificing for, one's own Self is also worth sacrificing for, unless your own Self is less valuable than another's Self, in which case selflessness would be a relative value, depending upon the value of the individual's Self.

    Hence why I prefer win-win situations, or mediating between one's own needs and others' needs.
     
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  17. bagelriffic

    bagelriffic Community Member

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    dunno what you mean by this. are you saying this external force is self created, and that it essentially controls our behavior eliminating choice from the equation?

    right i get what you're saying here, but i think you are missing the point. bc we can act inspite of our own personal pros and cons, values, beliefs wtv you wanna call em without the certainty of any specific outcome, this in turn questions the theory all deeds are inherently selfish. there's no guarentee of a return, there's no inner values driving this decision, how is that selfish?

    you good sir are wrong, but since you asked so kindly i shail elaborate. beliefs can be dangerous things and not to be taken lightly (yes i believe that..). to shut our minds off to the possibility that throughout human history there has never been such a thing as a selfless act is a colosal assumption, and impossible to prove, one way or the other. the amount of variables is mind boggling and i am comfortable with saying that neither you nor i know enough of these to prove the truth of this one way or the other.

    with that said, i'm just playing devils advocate, i dunno one way or the other nor plan on ever really knowing. just questioning really, which i find more exciting and productive than resting on an easy (and old i might add) explanation.
     
  18. Nixie

    Nixie Resurrected

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    I think perhaps what I see Billy saying is that on some level there is a selfish component in that one's self is served by every action we take. Even in the extreme case of someone sacrificing their life for a so-called stranger (running into a burning building as stated). Doing such a thing reflects the person's understanding of what they consider honorable or desireable and is thus an expression of self and is selfish. I agree that everything we do is an extension of our self and our actions are selfish in the purest sense--ish meaning concerned with the self.
     
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  19. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    Yeah I am pretty sure it was clear, but thanks for rewording it, some one is just being obstinate in their wrong-ness. Every action we take is self motivated, even selfless actions at the core it comes from the same place. Nothing is truly selfless, nothing, unless youre not the one making the call. I suppose if you die in a fiery wreck on the highway and you die and your family donates your organs thats kind of selfless since it wasn't your choice, but then again my drivers license has a donor emblem, so I suppose it still is.
     
  20. Majesty

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    Pros of this thread
    - Discussion
    - Brings more action
    - Finger muscle training
    - I agree

    Cons of this thread
    - People use more energy
    - I am not rational
    - I don't like olives

    My opinion
    A lot of feelers say they really wished to be rational and would like to become T. But I don't think it's any better than being a F (illogical irational and whatnot). I'd rather stay the oversensitive feeler that I already am.

    Conclusion
    I'm now a INTJ

    I'm just saying this to be polite, I don't really feel sorry.
    Sorry if it doesn't exactly fit with the main topic

    A monkey
    :mhula:
     
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