Original Sin--Born with the sin nature...

[wonkavision]

I wish you wouldn’t speak to me like you are my superior.
You are not....neither am I yours.
Goodnight.
Have fun.

You've got a lot of issues with inferiority and superiority, don't you Skarekrow?

"I once knew a man who thought he was above me, and he was until he had that thought." ???

Listen, I'm not your father, your boss, or whoever you're projecting onto me. I'm not oppressing you.

It's your own guilty conscience, and your insecurities that are plaguing you. And I feel bad for you.

I told you I'm a sinner just like you, and that I'm just as dependent on God and his grace for salvation. And yet, all you hear is that I think that I am superior to you! Where on earth did you get that?

And again, I've told you that I am n INFJ just like you, and that I understand you. Where do you get all this stuff about me trying to act like I'm superior? Just try and calm down.

 

[Skarekrow]

You've got a lot of issues with inferiority and superiority, don't you Skarekrow?

"I once knew a man who thought he was above me, and he was until he had that thought." ???

Listen, I'm not your father, your boss, or whoever you're projecting onto me. I'm not oppressing you.

It's your own guilty conscience, and your insecurities that are plaguing you. And I feel bad for you.

I told you I'm a sinner just like you, and that I'm just as dependent on God and his grace for salvation. And yet, all you hear is that I think that I am superior to you! Where on earth did you get that?

And again, I've told you that I am n INFJ just like you, and that I understand you. Where do you get all this stuff about me trying to act like I'm superior? Just try and calm down.

If you keep talking to me, then I will respond when you ask me things.
Calm down...I don’t take orders from you, and I’m not excited.
However; I have offered you peace offerings twice now...and both times you took a shit on it.
I have no guilty conscious, no insecurities in this arena are plaguing me, and please don’t feel bad for me - do you see how all of that is patronizing?
Clearly not.
So talk to yourself.
Don’t talk to me anymore - I will not respond unless you are insulting me somehow then I will report your 3rd grade neurotic inability to not call names when asked nicely not to.

You obviously need to ponder that quote for a while - once again, right over your head.
Goodnight now wonkavision...can’t say it’s been fun.




The doctrine of original sin is false because:

1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.

2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins.

3. It excuses the sinner.

4. It makes God responsible for sin.

5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust.

6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin.

7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians.

8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved.

9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity.

10. It contradicts the Bible.

11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19.

12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures.

13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do.

 

[Emanuel Goldstein]

You didn't "go wrong." It's just really clear to me that you're not interested in what the Bible says.

I don't want to waste my time or yours. And like I said, Skarekrow keeps butting in and crying.

I am but I'm a simple man and all those passages was like drinking from a fire hose... pick one or two passages and discuss what they mean too you... I think you give up too easy... I'm on a tablet i

Like I said, butting in and crying again.

Look man, I'm an INFJ just like you. I know we have a tendency to flip out and make no sense once we are in that state. I know that. But please calm down. It's alright.

I'll try but I'm really sensitive?

 

[Emanuel Goldstein]

I act that way too sometimes, so I understand. But I wish he would just calm down.

Oh that's easy... just stop directing comments at him

 

[Wyote]

 

[wonkavision]

I am but I'm a simple man and all those passages was like drinking from a fire hose... pick one or two passages and discuss what they mean too you... I think you give up too easy... I'm on a tablet i


I'll try but I'm really sensitive?

I give up too easy? Man, how about it's not worth my time. It takes a lot of work.

 

[Emanuel Goldstein]

I give up too easy? Man, how about it's not worth my time. It takes a lot of work.

You make a good point... okay later

 

[wonkavision]

@Emanuel Goldstein

I am but I'm a simple man and all those passages was like drinking from a fire hose... pick one or two passages and discuss what they mean too you...

Alright, then let's try it this way.....let's go with one verse: 1 Corinthians 2:14:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


"The natural man" -- the unconverted man, the "fleshly" man, which is all of us by nature.

"......receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" ---he won't receive the things of God's Spirit.

WHY NOT?--- "...for they are foolishness unto him:" -- They don't make sense to him. He thinks they're foolish.

"..... neither can he know them" -- He is unable to know them --

HOW COME? -- "because they are spiritually discerned."

In other words he does not have the ability to understand or receive the things of the Spirit of God because he is not spiritual. He has no spiritual understanding.


Now, of course you won't receive this as the truth if you don't have God's Spirit dwelling in you, but do you at least understand what it's saying, as far as basic reading comprehension?

 

[wonkavision]

The doctrine of original sin is false because:

1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.

2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins.

3. It excuses the sinner.

4. It makes God responsible for sin.

5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust.

6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin.

7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians.

8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved.

9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity.

10. It contradicts the Bible.

11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19.

12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures.

13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do.

If we did not all die in Adam, spiritually-speaking, when he fell in the garden, then what do you think this passage means?:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22:

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


It's very interesting how people are angry and offended by the thought that God would charge us with Adam's sin, but they have no problem with God charging people with Christ's righteousness.

 

[Skarekrow]

If we did not all die in Adam, spiritually-speaking, when he fell in the garden, then what do you think this passage means?:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22:

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


It's very interesting how people are angry and offended by the thought that God would charge us with Adam's sin, but they have no problem with God charging people with Christ's righteousness.

First of all, I would like to read the original translation as it seems to tip it’s hat to reincarnation possibly.

- There are certain self-evident truths...direct perceptions of reason...known to be true to all people...a thing cannot both be and not be.
Two contradictory things cannot both be true...the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

The whole cannot be greater than the sum of its parts...every effect must have a cause.
A creation implies a creator...moral character is non-transferable.
There are no proxies in morals...sin cannot be imputed where it does not exist without injustice.

Perfect justice cannot punish the innocent for the guilt of another...sin is personal and non-transferable.

All of the above truths I listed are known intuitively yet are still subjective.
They do not need to be proven however - they are direct perceptions of reason, and cannot rationally be denied by any person.

But the doctrine of original sin does deny self-evident truths.
It denies the self-evident truth that there can be no proxies in morals and teaches that Adam committed sin for us by proxy.

It denies that moral character is non-transferable and teaches that Adam's sinful character was transferred to all his descendants.
It denies that sin cannot be imputed where it does not exist without injustice and teaches that the infinitely holy and just God imputed the sin of Adam to all his descendants.

It denies that perfect justice cannot punish the innocent for the guilt of another and teaches that God - who is perfect in truth and justice, condemned the whole human race for the sin of Adam.

 

[wonkavision]

First of all, I would like to read the original translation as it seems to tip it’s hat to reincarnation possibly.

- There are certain self-evident truths...direct perceptions of reason...known to be true to all people...a thing cannot both be and not be.
Two contradictory things cannot both be true...the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

The whole cannot be greater than the sum of its parts...every effect must have a cause.
A creation implies a creator...moral character is non-transferable.
There are no proxies in morals...sin cannot be imputed where it does not exist without injustice.

Perfect justice cannot punish the innocent for the guilt of another...sin is personal and non-transferable.

All of the above truths I listed are known intuitively yet are still subjective.
They do not need to be proven however - they are direct perceptions of reason, and cannot rationally be denied by any person.

But the doctrine of original sin does deny self-evident truths.
It denies the self-evident truth that there can be no proxies in morals and teaches that Adam committed sin for us by proxy.

It denies that moral character is non-transferable and teaches that Adam's sinful character was transferred to all his descendants.
It denies that sin cannot be imputed where it does not exist without injustice and teaches that the infinitely holy and just God imputed the sin of Adam to all his descendants.

It denies that perfect justice cannot punish the innocent for the guilt of another and teaches that God - who is perfect in truth and justice, condemned the whole human race for the sin of Adam.

I didn't ask whether or not you think it is just for God to impute Adam's sin to us, or to impute Christ's righteousness to us.
I asked you if those verses are teaching that God imputed Adam's sin to us.

Do they or don't they?

 

[Emanuel Goldstein]

@Emanuel Goldstein



Alright, then let's try it this way.....let's go with one verse: 1 Corinthians 2:14:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


"The natural man" -- the unconverted man, the "fleshly" man, which is all of us by nature.

"......receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" ---he won't receive the things of God's Spirit.

WHY NOT?--- "...for they are foolishness unto him:" -- They don't make sense to him. He thinks they're foolish.

"..... neither can he know them" -- He is unable to know them --

HOW COME? -- "because they are spiritually discerned."

In other words he does not have the ability to understand or receive the things of the Spirit of God because he is not spiritual. He has no spiritual understanding.


Now, of course you won't receive this as the truth if you don't have God's Spirit dwelling in you, but do you at least understand what it's saying, as far as basic reading comprehension?

Yes... I agree... this is truth.

 

[wonkavision]

Yes... I agree... this is truth.

Alright then, here is another truth about "the natural man," from Romans 8:7:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."


"...the carnal mind" -- the natural mind, or the "fleshly" mind

"...is enmity..." -- hatred, hostility, bitterness-- "...against God:"

"....for it is not subject to the law of God," -- It refuses to obey the law of God

"...neither indeed can be." -- It is not possible for the carnal mind to obey the law of God.


So, you see, once again, the natural man hates God, and will not, and can not, obey him.

Now, does that make sense? And do you agree that that is what is being taught in this verse?

 

[Emanuel Goldstein]

I didn't ask whether or not you think it is just for God to impute Adam's sin to us, or to impute Christ's righteousness to us.
I asked you if those verses are teaching that God imputed Adam's sin to us.

Do they or don't they?

Yeah.. of course because the sins of the father are passed on to the son... theoretically assuming you don't think the story is allegorical... Adam is the father of all men.

‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

 

[Emanuel Goldstein]

Alright then, here is another truth about "the natural man," from Romans 8:7:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."


"...the carnal mind" -- the natural mind, or the "fleshly" mind

"...is enmity..." -- hatred, hostility, bitterness-- "...against God:"

"....for it is not subject to the law of God," -- It refuses to obey the law of God

"...neither indeed can be." -- It is not possible for the carnal mind to obey the law of God.


So, you see, once again, the natural man hates God, and will not, and can not, obey him.

Now, does that make sense? And do you agree that that is what is being taught in this verse?

I see nothing in that verse about the natural man, only about the Carnel mind, or the mind that thinks about the pleasure derived from sex. Don't make the mistake of equating natural man with the Carnel mind. It is possible for the natural man to reject the Carnel mind by resisting its temptation. Would you agree?

 

[wonkavision]

Yeah.. of course because the sins of the father are passed on to the son... theoretically assuming you don't think the story is allegorical... Adam is the father of all men.

‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

Yes, and furthermore, God is a "covenant God." He only deals with men through covenants.

God made a covenant -- an agreement with Adam -- that he was not to eat from a certain tree, and the penalty of disobedience would be death---first, spiritual, and then, physical.

And because Adam failed to obey God and ate from that tree, he died, and we all died in him. And the only way to reconcile us to God is through Jesus Christ, as the Sinner's Substitute.

Look at this:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." -- 1 Corinthians 15:22

That means that we all died in Adam, with him as our representative, and in the same way, all who are in Jesus Christ, who have him as their representative, shall be made alive.

This is called "substitution." And it is the most important doctrine of all, in regard to salvation.

Either we will be judged for our sin, or we will be judged in a righteous substitute.

If I don't have union with Christ, by faith in his blood, then I will be condemned for my sin. But if God has joined me to Christ, in a living, spiritual union with him, then I'll live.

 

[Emanuel Goldstein]

yes God cut a deal with Adam.

I have question though, when Jesus returns will he be born again of woman? Or will he just suddenly show?

I need to know you belief is... or what your interpretation of the bible is.

 

[wonkavision]

I see nothing in that verse about the natural man, only about the Carnel mind, or the mind that thinks about the pleasure derived from sex. Don't make the mistake of equating natural man with the Carnel mind. It is possible for the natural man to reject the Carnel mind by resisting its temptation. Would you agree?

No, I don't agree.

If man, by nature, does not have the Spirit of God in him, and is therefore unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God, then he can not do good.
He can only do that which is evil---even when he's doing a "good deed," like feeding the homeless, or praying to God, or reading his Bible! -- If he does not have the Spirit, he cannot please God.

Romans 8:8 says, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Now, that does not mean, as many false preachers will tell you, that those who indulge in the flesh cannot please God. It means that those who do not have the Spirit of God in them cannot please God.

All they have is the flesh, and so all they can do is that which is fleshly, carnal, and sinful. Only that which is spiritual can do that which is spiritual. The flesh simply cannot do it!

 

[wonkavision]

yes God cut a deal with Adam.

I have question though, when Jesus returns will he be born again of woman? Or will he just suddenly show?

I need to know you belief is... or what your interpretation of the bible is.

No, he will not be born again of a woman. The Scriptures say, plainly, that he will return just as he departed, as the glorified God-man---except, next time we'll see him in all of his glory!

"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -- Acts 1:11

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." -- Mark 13:26-27

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."-- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." -- Revelation 1:7

 

[Skarekrow]

I didn't ask whether or not you think it is just for God to impute Adam's sin to us, or to impute Christ's righteousness to us.
I asked you if those verses are teaching that God imputed Adam's sin to us.

Do they or don't they?

I thought that was quite clear.
No.