Ne + Fi = Assumptions | INFJ Forum

Ne + Fi = Assumptions

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by VH, Oct 3, 2009.

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  1. VH

    VH Variable Hybrid

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    I've noticed lately that the combination of Ne and Fi (ENFP, INFP, ISTJ, and ESTJ) may lead to assumptions that are very strongly believed, yet ludicrously wrong. I'm not sure if this combination works out often enough for these types that they feel justified in the confidence of their assumptions, but it is clear that these types can jump to extremely false conclusions and defend them with their 'right to feel however they choose'.

    I'm trying to develop coping mechanisms for dealing with people who make false assumptions about me, my actions, and especially my motivations, then take very confident actions without ever letting me know what they have assumed, and then refusing to change their minds once the truth has been brought to light. At this point, my disdain for injustice is triggered, and I begin to lose a great deal of respect for those who do this, and have to force myself to not fight for what is right, as it will only make the situation worse, because somehow when someone comes to these sorts of conclusions it only bolsters their resolve when the target of them resists.

    This is one of the greatest sources of frustration, and correspondingly tension, I have with the people in these types, and I am wondering if anyone has any advice? Perhaps my fellow NFJ types have found ways to deal with it, or the lovely NFPs can explain the other side of this conflict and how best to defuse it?

    Here are some examples of what I am talking about...

    An ENFP friend of mine assumed that when my livejournal had a technical glitch that kept dropping my friends that it meant that I hated her and didn't want her in my life anymore, even after I explained the situation to her and forwarded the emails from tech support. Instead of changing her stance, she decided that this meant I was lying because it didn't support her original assumption. To this day, she actively insists that I am a terrible person, even though I've purposely never done anything against her. She simply refuses to believe I am not her enemy because of this incident, and any protest on my part is more proof of my lack of character.

    My mother is an ESTJ, and would regularly accuse me of stealing her things when they were lost. Even though I have never stolen anything from her, and have never borrowed anything without asking and as quickly as possible replacing, she would insist that I was lying if I told her that I didn't have it. In each of these incidents, the oblect would turn up where she had last left it, yet to this day she will accuse me of stealing things that she has lost if there is any possibility whatsoever that I could have done so.

    One of my INFP ex girlfriends convinced herself that there was no way I could actually love her, because she was Mexican, and the last two girls I dated were blonde. Because of this, she kept breaking up with me. I later found out that these sentiments were bolstered by the fact that I didn't fight her on the issue. Because I didn't want to fight about something that I didn't even understand, that meant I was even more guilty of it. Eventually, she married a guy that she settled for, even though she's told me repeatedly that she never loved anyone more than me. The problem was, I loved her and was perfectly willing to marry her, and told her so on several occasions, but she insisted that I was lying because it didn't match up with what she'd convinced herself of. Now she's stopped being friends with me because she can't believe that I won't try to get into her pants now that she's married, even though I've never tried with anyone.

    Here's the biggest problem. I don't lie. I've never seen the point in it. All of the people in the example know this, and that I've never lied to them about anything. Yet, when I refute these claims, they immediately accuse me of lying. And I have to say that it almost makes me more angry to be accused of lying as it does of whatever else I was accused of in the first place. But, the thing that infuriates me is the fact that they would shut themselves off with such certainty that they're willing to add insult to injury and further injustice to maintain their assumptions. They would rather escalate, attack, and bolster a wall between us than trust me to be the person I've always been, and have proven myself to be, time and again. It makes me so mad that I can't think clearly anymore.

    Does anyone have any advice? Thanks.
     
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    #1 VH, Oct 3, 2009
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  2. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    Stop being so pure with people, It brings nothing but pain to you. People aren't able to handle complex and sensitive individuals like yourself, so you should slip on a little mask and customize it to their preferred user experience and dole the real you out in pieces instead of 1 big enigma they wont get. I had to learn to do this before i went insane banging my heart against other idiots walls.
     
  3. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    That's a tough dilemma, Von.

    I've had that run in (or something like it) with two different ENFP males, and it's always that they had the right idea, but the wrong conclusion. Their assumption was that A+B+C=Z...but they never took into account why. The conclusion was "right" technically - but they didn't take in enough information about me to come to the correct conclusion. Right versus correct.

    For example - one of my ENFP bosses assumed I hated one of our employees because she continually did things I wasn't comfortable with, or she went against the rules. I didn't hate her at all - but I wasn't sure why my boss didn't discipline her when he clearly disciplined others for lesser actions. But because I voiced my opinion about what she did, he immediately concluded that I had it out for her. I was all, WTF? Where'd you get *that* conclusion from?!

    Yes, I had issues with what she did and *yes* I thought he was playing favorites, but it didn't mean I hated her; I just wanted justice across the board.

    So I understand how you feel. I've always felt misunderstood when I've had certain conversations with ENFP males. I don't know why it happens and I'm not sure why it keeps happening...but I think it's just a communication style difference.

    I haven't figured out how to fix it either, mostly because it seems to come out of nowhere and I'm not prepared for how random the conclusion is. It's like certain folks are taking in what they perceive to be the whole picture and yet they've missed vital clues to make their conclusion valid.

    I wonder, really, if it's Ni clashing with Ne. We're internalizing too much and we're not providing enough outward data to help an Ne/Fi person judge us correctly.

    'Course to do that, we'd also need to realize more of what's going on around us which...ain't gonna happen.
     
    #3 arbygil, Oct 3, 2009
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  4. foureyes

    foureyes Community Member

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    I disagree. edit: actually maybe I do agree. I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying.
    I think you can over come this I think you just need to learn how to communicate with them in an effective way.
    The best way to do this would be to point out how illogical their argument is and the negative consequences of their stance.
    For example with your ESTJ mom when she accuses you of stealing something just be like. "what reason would I possibly have for stealing your blank?" and "Do you really think that little of me?" Basically prove how she's being illogical and them make her feel bad.
    Like with your friend same thing, question her be like "what would I possibly be mad at you for (if there was a reason same thing do you really think I would respond so rashly. I value our friendship more than that. But always leave the conversation not on an angry bitter note but on like an emotional appeal of how your sad that she's just throwing your friendship away. You might feel a tad manipulative using this learned stategy but your being honest, it more like you're confronting them really so don't feel bad about letting your emotions show. It's often what they need to get the message across.
    With your INFP ex, that's a hard situation. THat belief of her's probably comes from some long held and engrained belief (blame society) that she is inferior to blonde white skinny girls. Probably developed in childhood. You probably couldn't have completely erased her feelings of inferiority and I understand you not wanting to talk about something you don't understand but she probably would have believed you more the more times you assured her that you didn't feel that way, she probably would have gotten over it enough and she probably would have married you. :( That sucks.
    So I'm sorry that you must deal with such irrationality from people, but I still think there is hope in over coming the barriers. :)
    Still though, sometimes I think the effort of communication just ruins things for me. Why can't people just read minds! God! :p
     
    #4 foureyes, Oct 3, 2009
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  5. OP
    VH

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    I am convinced it is Ni clashing with Ne, as well as Fe clashing with Fi. I think we're not providing enough outward data because we just assume everyone understand how things should be, instead of leaping to internalized and disconnected conclusions. When we're not more sensitive to the individual than the group, they find it antagonistic... or at least that's how I understand it to work.

    The ENFP friend had a common phrase that she used which was "The macro aligns with the micro" In other words, when she concluded that the big picture agreed with the little picture, then her conclusion had to be true. I tried to point out to her that this was an absolute logical fallacy since it doesn't include a shit ton of variables or factors, but by that point I was already on the anathema list and any council I might have been able to suggest was poison.

    Did he ever jump to a coalition tactic? I've also noticed a tendency in these types to quickly attempt to garner support from others through an emotional plea when they begin to lose arguments on logical basis, as if somehow gaining the support of others will win the argument or change the truth. The tactic seems to work like this..."It doesn't matter what the truth is. If we all agree, then we're right and you're wrong and if you fight us on this we won't like you anymore." I've also noticed that the plea is designed to play to personal sympathies when they do it.
     
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  6. OP
    VH

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    Very good advice. It's clear that they won't allow the 'battle' to take place on any terms but their own. I'll have to speak their language, even though to me it seems terribly manipulative, and therefore ingenuine. Good point about it being an expression of my sincere feelings, just translated.

    As for the INFP, you're dead on right, except she was, and still is, a skinny girl. She had a problem with blonde white girls with feminine curves. There isn't a whole lot I could have done I suppose. It's a pity because other than the communication blind spot that is the topic of this thread, she and I had amazing physical, mental, and emotional chemistry. I occasionally meet INFP or ENFP women with whom I have similar sparks, and I would really like to master the art of harmony in this area that is predesigned to skip gears between our types.

    Thanks again. I'm going to try to force myself to remember to speak on their terms... which is exactly what Billy was saying. Thanks to you too Billy. You said that in Ni, so it was pretty clear to me. :)
     
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  7. foureyes

    foureyes Community Member

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    Yay! Glad I could be of help. :)
     
  8. Goatman455

    Goatman455 Community Member

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    I think this happens in all types depending on the person.

    Ironically I think you are doing the very thing you accuse others of here. You seem to firmly believe that Ne+Fi=misjudgment and that simply isn't true. Let me give you an example of a Fe-Ni issue that is similar.

    I have seen ENFJs (no offense to any here) for example, have these ideas in their heads they believe, and when those are questioned they just ignore it. In essence, they only believe their own perceptions. They must make or have the idea themselves in order for it to be believed, sometimes even adopting others ideas as their own. They rarely take others word for it without themselves coming to the conclusion. This is especially true when they are criticized personally, they just can't bear to face it, and vehemently deny it (sometimes even getting really angry). Perhaps this is more common in EJs.

    Of course, there are plenty of ENFJs (and EJs) that don't do this, but I have noticed these misjudgments in all the types I have seen.

    I think I's probably keep their misjudgments to themselves more preferring to release their perceptions when they are more fully formulated, but regardless it can happen even in Is as well.


    I think to say that any function or combo can cause misjudgments is a misjudgment in of itself. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a great line. Sometimes we are so busy judging others we don't see where we do exactly the same thing.

    Not trying to be mean, just stating my view.

    I think you need to explain to them that they are misjudging the situation. Ask them why you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt? Ask them for proof. I mean, if you have never done anything to them, it is wrong for them to assume you are going to act that way.

    They probably have issues in their past that have caused them to be on the defensive about the things in question. Help them realize that you are not going to do these things to them and that you act as honest as possible towards them. Let them know you are there to support and help them, not to screw them over.
     
    #8 Goatman455, Oct 3, 2009
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  9. slant

    slant Sedated slanty

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    Ugh, I don't like the"I just know" effect. It's terrible.
     
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  10. enfp can be shy

    enfp can be shy people vs the bad people?
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    I'm not completely sure that the 16 types truly exist. Maybe there are just 4:
    NFJ/STP (Ni/Se + Fe/Ti)
    NFP/STJ (Ne/Si + Fi/Te)
    SFP/NTJ (Ni/Se + Fi/Te)
    SFJ/NTP (Ne/Si + Fe/Ti)

    ...and the rest are predominant fluctuations of each individual within their group of 4 sub-types.

    In that case, the mentioned (ENFP, INFP, ISTJ, ESTJ) would really be quite alike. There seems to be attraction between them and their opposite group (ENFJ, INFJ, ISTP, ESTP), because the set of functions are completing each other. At the same time this causes great, great misunderstandings, indeed.

    I think when people {Ne,Fi} and {Ni,Fe} analyze each other, they tend to be wrong. But if they comment objective matters, or if they collaborate (not too closely, keeping independence) towards mutual goals - they could be quite successful: inspire each other and cover each other's weak spots.

    It's a very hard balance to keep. It's worth it, but it requires great dedication that is found so rarely nowadays.

    Anyway, as Ne+Fi, I could say that Ni+Fe=Assumptions too, but we are the weaker, less confident side (Si against Se - guess who wins), so we usually withdraw from such mirrored debates. However, might does not make right. The false assumptions for both sides are just the result of misunderstandings, and our opposite cognitive functioning. As long as we don't try to emulate each other, and we stay focused on the objective out there, it should be fine.
     
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  11. Goatman455

    Goatman455 Community Member

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    "I think when people {Ne,Fi} and {Ni,Fe} analyze each other, they tend to be wrong. But if they comment objective matters, or if they collaborate (not too closely, keeping independence) towards mutual goals - they could be quite successful: inspire each other and cover each other's weak spots."



    Very interesting insight, I think this can be very true, misjudgments frequently occur between two people who are very alike, yet also different, regardless of MBTI type.
     
  12. gloomy-optimist

    gloomy-optimist Used to live here

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    I think most people assume wrong :B The problem is getting people to own up to that. The Ne+Fi combination can be absolutely horrendous, but not all of the time. It just takes the right kind of pressure to make them reassess their position. Likewise, I know some Ni+Fe types that are also amazingly irritating; the combination of "I know and trust my intuition" and "this is the way things should be" can be really irritating to someone who wants to do something crazy and against the norm.

    In those situations that you presented, Von, I'd say that a straight-forward approach would be best. Patience is an absolute must. Confront them directly and tell them everything exactly as it truly, why you say it is, and how it relates to you. When and if they get up-in-arms or emotional, wait until they calm down and then give it to them straight-forward, as-it-really-is again. That's not to say be pushy, but you do have to get the message across. And then, from there, you have to constantly reinforce what you've said, even without the situation arising. Bring it up yourself. She doesn't think she's beautiful? Take every chance to remind her that she's absolutely stunning.

    From my experience, that works most of the time. Not always, but most of the time.
     
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  13. Goatman455

    Goatman455 Community Member

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    Seriously, am I the only one that thinks making these generalizations about functions is insane? I see a lot of agreement here and that is fine, but this just seems wrong to make it a blanket statement like that.


    The only commonality or general statement I think we can make is poorly developed intuition will lead to the person making assumptions that are wrong and unchangeable. People will well developed intuition try not to do this, and also are willing to keep an open mind about their perceptions.


    Literally, by saying "Yes this is correct" the person making that statement becomes the one who is making assumptions.
    "Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one."Friedrich Nietzsche
    German philosopher (1844 - 1900)


    Edit: I also wanted to add that I think Extroversion is more likely to jump to conclusions and make assumptions than Introversion which lets the process happen more naturally. This isn't always true, but a trend I have noticed, so perhaps Ne-Fi is more likely to let their N leap, and Ni-Fe, more likely to let their Fe leap. What do you guys/girls think?
     
    #13 Goatman455, Oct 3, 2009
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  14. Gaze

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    I think this is a good and important point *as a principle. Not taking sides though in the discussion in this thread.
     
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  15. Blind Bandit

    Blind Bandit Blind Man Being Lead to Nowhere
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    Again your talking a extremely relative approach and citing a relativist philosopher

    "Nietzsche claimed the 'death' of God would eventually lead to the loss of any universal perspective on things, and along with it any coherent sense of objective truth.[45] Instead we would retain only our own multiple, diverse, and fluid perspectives. This view has acquired the name "perspectivism"."

    We need to see where Netsche is coming from he is putting to much faith in god and not enough in human kind. He also only thought god could be the only source abosulty truth. I don't think that is true.

    Thats fine but again just because you don't want to or don't think we should pin down absolutes doesn't mean we can't.

    Also Ni-Fe people do let the Ni go. Its just very different from Ne. The difference is Ni hard to describe and pin down. So Fe becomes more apparent.

    I honestly think your posts in this thread demonstrate your also falling into the very topic of this thread. Even if you didn't want to admit it.

    Cited


    "Nietzsche." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. 27 Apr 2009, 18:53 UTC. 3 Oct 2009 <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nietzsche&oldid=286490053>.
     
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    #15 Blind Bandit, Oct 4, 2009
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  16. Goatman455

    Goatman455 Community Member

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    The idea behind this quote from Nietzsche is sound. When you start to see problems in others, and you are not careful, you yourself can become the thing you search for.

    Nietzsche's view on God vs. Humans should not interfere with the wisdom of this quote. Also, any religous person believes God is greater than humans, that doesn't mean they think humans are scum. This quote doesn't even put humans in a negative light, it warns about the danger of finding faults in others.

    Besides, Nietzsche is human, put some faith in him ;).


    "Also Ni-Fe people do let the Ni go. Its just very different from Ne. The difference is Ni hard to describe and pin down. So Fe becomes more apparent.

    I honestly think your posts in this thread demonstrate your also falling into the very topic of this thread. Even if you didn't want to admit it."


    Sorry, but I am not the one making assumptions here, I am trying to prevent them, I fail to see your point, but I will get to that later.


    People tend to overestimate the difference between Ni and Ne, they aren't that different. They are the same function but one is introverted and one is extroverted. An idea for you to think about is one should look at Jung's definitions of Introverted and Extroverted, then apply that to a particular function. By seeing Ni and Ne as completely different, or Fe and Fi as completely different we are mushing up and creating boundaries (and thus assumptions) that are not there.


    I also suggest we keep the personal attacks out of this, you said I am a perfect example, but you are not giving any logic as to why. Please private message me with your ideas about me and I will be more than happy to listen, otherwise we should keep this discussion on the relevant topic.
     
  17. OP
    VH

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    If this were true, there would be no need to distinguish them.

    However, the truth of the matter is that each of the four cognitive functions represent four polar extremes in cognitive Judging and Perception. Fi has as much in common with Fe as it does Ti. Few people will be so polar in their Fi that they will not also manifest Ti, Fe, and Te, but Fi dominance does distinguish it as the pole dominating the individual's Judging functions to a degree that at minimum gives it precedence over the others.

    Think of them more like polarities, moving from one to another, often losing force as they progress. Where someone starts is going to be the area in which they have the most strength, and (if this thread proves nothing else) this influences personality.
     
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  18. Blind Bandit

    Blind Bandit Blind Man Being Lead to Nowhere
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    I'm not going to keep arguing with you if you continue to take such an approach.

    I also wasn't insulting you. I'm pointing out that your style reminds me of the issue talked about in this thread.

    As for your points on Fe vs. Fi and Ni vs. Ne. I don't agree I can very large and striking differences.
     
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  19. Goatman455

    Goatman455 Community Member

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    Whether you intended to insult is one thing, whether I became insulted is another. If you think I am illustrating points, please tell me WHY? How have I made assumptions here that are way out of line?

    I could say that Ni+Fe = Poor self judgment because I have seen that here, but that doesn't make it true.

    The original poster is talking about Ne+Fi being too absolute and I am being accused of talking to relatively. Your point doesn't make sense to me, I want to understand it but I am requesting you give me reasoning.

    It isn't fair to make an assumption about me and not tell me how you are coming to that judgment.


    Edit: BTW, my points weren't just about Ne and Ni and Fe and Fi, it's all the functions. That said, I didn't say "This is the way it is" like many people here, I just said "Here is another way to look at it". My way is perfectly valid, but if you can't accept it, fine don't.
     
    #19 Goatman455, Oct 4, 2009
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  20. Goatman455

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    I think I see what you are talking about, when people start to criticize Ne+Fi perhaps they start to take on the characteristics of those who are criticizing. If you are being absolute, I become more absolute in my statements etc. You are seeing the defense response as the normal one perhaps. That said, I would love to hear your idea with your words on everything because I think it will help both of us increase our understanding of the issue.

    We should come from the angle that the other person is right, because this is getting heated, if we assume each other correct and try and disprove ourselves we will learn quicker.


    I have been thinking about this and I think we are all making pretty bad assumptions here. We need a little Thinker action (not self referential), us Fs tend to let our T get carried away.


    What we have been saying just doesn't make much sense in the framework of MBTI, but fun to discuss nonetheless.

    I also think it's funny the thread is about Ps being Js. Ne+Fi are Ps, but Js are accusing them of being judgmental. Kind of ridiculous. Ps probably make some dumb judgments just as Js aren't willing to take in enough info from time to time. Thing is, if you don't take in enough info, your judgments are off, if you don't judge things properly you make assumptions. Perhaps this is what the OP is referring to.

    That said, Js usually get blindsided when their judgment is off because they are used to making sound ones, and Ps probably don't realize when they are being closed minded because they are so used to taking in more info and keeping an open mind.
     
    #20 Goatman455, Oct 4, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2009
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