Ne + Fi = Assumptions

Stop being so pure with people, It brings nothing but pain to you. People aren't able to handle complex and sensitive individuals like yourself, so you should slip on a little mask and customize it to their preferred user experience and dole the real you out in pieces instead of 1 big enigma they wont get. I had to learn to do this before i went insane banging my heart against other idiots walls.

 

That's a tough dilemma, Von.

I've had that run in (or something like it) with two different ENFP males, and it's always that they had the right idea, but the wrong conclusion. Their assumption was that A+B+C=Z...but they never took into account why. The conclusion was "right" technically - but they didn't take in enough information about me to come to the correct conclusion. Right versus correct.

For example - one of my ENFP bosses assumed I hated one of our employees because she continually did things I wasn't comfortable with, or she went against the rules. I didn't hate her at all - but I wasn't sure why my boss didn't discipline her when he clearly disciplined others for lesser actions. But because I voiced my opinion about what she did, he immediately concluded that I had it out for her. I was all, WTF? Where'd you get *that* conclusion from?!

Yes, I had issues with what she did and *yes* I thought he was playing favorites, but it didn't mean I hated her; I just wanted justice across the board.

So I understand how you feel. I've always felt misunderstood when I've had certain conversations with ENFP males. I don't know why it happens and I'm not sure why it keeps happening...but I think it's just a communication style difference.

I haven't figured out how to fix it either, mostly because it seems to come out of nowhere and I'm not prepared for how random the conclusion is. It's like certain folks are taking in what they perceive to be the whole picture and yet they've missed vital clues to make their conclusion valid.

I wonder, really, if it's Ni clashing with Ne. We're internalizing too much and we're not providing enough outward data to help an Ne/Fi person judge us correctly.

'Course to do that, we'd also need to realize more of what's going on around us which...ain't gonna happen.

 

I disagree. edit: actually maybe I do agree. I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying.
I think you can over come this I think you just need to learn how to communicate with them in an effective way.
The best way to do this would be to point out how illogical their argument is and the negative consequences of their stance.
For example with your ESTJ mom when she accuses you of stealing something just be like. "what reason would I possibly have for stealing your blank?" and "Do you really think that little of me?" Basically prove how she's being illogical and them make her feel bad.
Like with your friend same thing, question her be like "what would I possibly be mad at you for (if there was a reason same thing do you really think I would respond so rashly. I value our friendship more than that. But always leave the conversation not on an angry bitter note but on like an emotional appeal of how your sad that she's just throwing your friendship away. You might feel a tad manipulative using this learned stategy but your being honest, it more like you're confronting them really so don't feel bad about letting your emotions show. It's often what they need to get the message across.
With your INFP ex, that's a hard situation. THat belief of her's probably comes from some long held and engrained belief (blame society) that she is inferior to blonde white skinny girls. Probably developed in childhood. You probably couldn't have completely erased her feelings of inferiority and I understand you not wanting to talk about something you don't understand but she probably would have believed you more the more times you assured her that you didn't feel that way, she probably would have gotten over it enough and she probably would have married you. That sucks.
So I'm sorry that you must deal with such irrationality from people, but I still think there is hope in over coming the barriers.
Still though, sometimes I think the effort of communication just ruins things for me. Why can't people just read minds! God!

 

Yay! Glad I could be of help.

 

I think this happens in all types depending on the person.

Ironically I think you are doing the very thing you accuse others of here. You seem to firmly believe that Ne+Fi=misjudgment and that simply isn't true. Let me give you an example of a Fe-Ni issue that is similar.

I have seen ENFJs (no offense to any here) for example, have these ideas in their heads they believe, and when those are questioned they just ignore it. In essence, they only believe their own perceptions. They must make or have the idea themselves in order for it to be believed, sometimes even adopting others ideas as their own. They rarely take others word for it without themselves coming to the conclusion. This is especially true when they are criticized personally, they just can't bear to face it, and vehemently deny it (sometimes even getting really angry). Perhaps this is more common in EJs.

Of course, there are plenty of ENFJs (and EJs) that don't do this, but I have noticed these misjudgments in all the types I have seen.

I think I's probably keep their misjudgments to themselves more preferring to release their perceptions when they are more fully formulated, but regardless it can happen even in Is as well.


I think to say that any function or combo can cause misjudgments is a misjudgment in of itself. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a great line. Sometimes we are so busy judging others we don't see where we do exactly the same thing.

Not trying to be mean, just stating my view.

I think you need to explain to them that they are misjudging the situation. Ask them why you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt? Ask them for proof. I mean, if you have never done anything to them, it is wrong for them to assume you are going to act that way.

They probably have issues in their past that have caused them to be on the defensive about the things in question. Help them realize that you are not going to do these things to them and that you act as honest as possible towards them. Let them know you are there to support and help them, not to screw them over.

 

Ugh, I don't like the"I just know" effect. It's terrible.

 

I'm not completely sure that the 16 types truly exist. Maybe there are just 4:
NFJ/STP (Ni/Se + Fe/Ti)
NFP/STJ (Ne/Si + Fi/Te)
SFP/NTJ (Ni/Se + Fi/Te)
SFJ/NTP (Ne/Si + Fe/Ti)

...and the rest are predominant fluctuations of each individual within their group of 4 sub-types.

In that case, the mentioned (ENFP, INFP, ISTJ, ESTJ) would really be quite alike. There seems to be attraction between them and their opposite group (ENFJ, INFJ, ISTP, ESTP), because the set of functions are completing each other. At the same time this causes great, great misunderstandings, indeed.

I think when people {Ne,Fi} and {Ni,Fe} analyze each other, they tend to be wrong. But if they comment objective matters, or if they collaborate (not too closely, keeping independence) towards mutual goals - they could be quite successful: inspire each other and cover each other's weak spots.

It's a very hard balance to keep. It's worth it, but it requires great dedication that is found so rarely nowadays.

Anyway, as Ne+Fi, I could say that Ni+Fe=Assumptions too, but we are the weaker, less confident side (Si against Se - guess who wins), so we usually withdraw from such mirrored debates. However, might does not make right. The false assumptions for both sides are just the result of misunderstandings, and our opposite cognitive functioning. As long as we don't try to emulate each other, and we stay focused on the objective out there, it should be fine.

 

"I think when people {Ne,Fi} and {Ni,Fe} analyze each other, they tend to be wrong. But if they comment objective matters, or if they collaborate (not too closely, keeping independence) towards mutual goals - they could be quite successful: inspire each other and cover each other's weak spots."



Very interesting insight, I think this can be very true, misjudgments frequently occur between two people who are very alike, yet also different, regardless of MBTI type.

 

I think most people assume wrong :B The problem is getting people to own up to that. The Ne+Fi combination can be absolutely horrendous, but not all of the time. It just takes the right kind of pressure to make them reassess their position. Likewise, I know some Ni+Fe types that are also amazingly irritating; the combination of "I know and trust my intuition" and "this is the way things should be" can be really irritating to someone who wants to do something crazy and against the norm.

In those situations that you presented, Von, I'd say that a straight-forward approach would be best. Patience is an absolute must. Confront them directly and tell them everything exactly as it truly, why you say it is, and how it relates to you. When and if they get up-in-arms or emotional, wait until they calm down and then give it to them straight-forward, as-it-really-is again. That's not to say be pushy, but you do have to get the message across. And then, from there, you have to constantly reinforce what you've said, even without the situation arising. Bring it up yourself. She doesn't think she's beautiful? Take every chance to remind her that she's absolutely stunning.

From my experience, that works most of the time. Not always, but most of the time.

 

Seriously, am I the only one that thinks making these generalizations about functions is insane? I see a lot of agreement here and that is fine, but this just seems wrong to make it a blanket statement like that.


The only commonality or general statement I think we can make is poorly developed intuition will lead to the person making assumptions that are wrong and unchangeable. People will well developed intuition try not to do this, and also are willing to keep an open mind about their perceptions.


Literally, by saying "Yes this is correct" the person making that statement becomes the one who is making assumptions.

"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one."Friedrich Nietzsche
German philosopher (1844 - 1900)


Edit: I also wanted to add that I think Extroversion is more likely to jump to conclusions and make assumptions than Introversion which lets the process happen more naturally. This isn't always true, but a trend I have noticed, so perhaps Ne-Fi is more likely to let their N leap, and Ni-Fe, more likely to let their Fe leap. What do you guys/girls think?
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I think this is a good and important point *as a principle. Not taking sides though in the discussion in this thread.

 

Again your talking a extremely relative approach and citing a relativist philosopher

"Nietzsche claimed the 'death' of God would eventually lead to the loss of any universal perspective on things, and along with it any coherent sense of objective truth.[45] Instead we would retain only our own multiple, diverse, and fluid perspectives. This view has acquired the name "perspectivism"."

We need to see where Netsche is coming from he is putting to much faith in god and not enough in human kind. He also only thought god could be the only source abosulty truth. I don't think that is true.

Thats fine but again just because you don't want to or don't think we should pin down absolutes doesn't mean we can't.

Also Ni-Fe people do let the Ni go. Its just very different from Ne. The difference is Ni hard to describe and pin down. So Fe becomes more apparent.

I honestly think your posts in this thread demonstrate your also falling into the very topic of this thread. Even if you didn't want to admit it.

Cited


"Nietzsche." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. 27 Apr 2009, 18:53 UTC. 3 Oct 2009 <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nietzsche&oldid=286490053>.

 

The idea behind this quote from Nietzsche is sound. When you start to see problems in others, and you are not careful, you yourself can become the thing you search for.

Nietzsche's view on God vs. Humans should not interfere with the wisdom of this quote. Also, any religous person believes God is greater than humans, that doesn't mean they think humans are scum. This quote doesn't even put humans in a negative light, it warns about the danger of finding faults in others.

Besides, Nietzsche is human, put some faith in him .


"Also Ni-Fe people do let the Ni go. Its just very different from Ne. The difference is Ni hard to describe and pin down. So Fe becomes more apparent.

I honestly think your posts in this thread demonstrate your also falling into the very topic of this thread. Even if you didn't want to admit it."


Sorry, but I am not the one making assumptions here, I am trying to prevent them, I fail to see your point, but I will get to that later.


People tend to overestimate the difference between Ni and Ne, they aren't that different. They are the same function but one is introverted and one is extroverted. An idea for you to think about is one should look at Jung's definitions of Introverted and Extroverted, then apply that to a particular function. By seeing Ni and Ne as completely different, or Fe and Fi as completely different we are mushing up and creating boundaries (and thus assumptions) that are not there.


I also suggest we keep the personal attacks out of this, you said I am a perfect example, but you are not giving any logic as to why. Please private message me with your ideas about me and I will be more than happy to listen, otherwise we should keep this discussion on the relevant topic.

 

I'm not going to keep arguing with you if you continue to take such an approach.

I also wasn't insulting you. I'm pointing out that your style reminds me of the issue talked about in this thread.

As for your points on Fe vs. Fi and Ni vs. Ne. I don't agree I can very large and striking differences.

 

Whether you intended to insult is one thing, whether I became insulted is another. If you think I am illustrating points, please tell me WHY? How have I made assumptions here that are way out of line?

I could say that Ni+Fe = Poor self judgment because I have seen that here, but that doesn't make it true.

The original poster is talking about Ne+Fi being too absolute and I am being accused of talking to relatively. Your point doesn't make sense to me, I want to understand it but I am requesting you give me reasoning.

It isn't fair to make an assumption about me and not tell me how you are coming to that judgment.


Edit: BTW, my points weren't just about Ne and Ni and Fe and Fi, it's all the functions. That said, I didn't say "This is the way it is" like many people here, I just said "Here is another way to look at it". My way is perfectly valid, but if you can't accept it, fine don't.

 

I think I see what you are talking about, when people start to criticize Ne+Fi perhaps they start to take on the characteristics of those who are criticizing. If you are being absolute, I become more absolute in my statements etc. You are seeing the defense response as the normal one perhaps. That said, I would love to hear your idea with your words on everything because I think it will help both of us increase our understanding of the issue.

We should come from the angle that the other person is right, because this is getting heated, if we assume each other correct and try and disprove ourselves we will learn quicker.


I have been thinking about this and I think we are all making pretty bad assumptions here. We need a little Thinker action (not self referential), us Fs tend to let our T get carried away.


What we have been saying just doesn't make much sense in the framework of MBTI, but fun to discuss nonetheless.

I also think it's funny the thread is about Ps being Js. Ne+Fi are Ps, but Js are accusing them of being judgmental. Kind of ridiculous. Ps probably make some dumb judgments just as Js aren't willing to take in enough info from time to time. Thing is, if you don't take in enough info, your judgments are off, if you don't judge things properly you make assumptions. Perhaps this is what the OP is referring to.

That said, Js usually get blindsided when their judgment is off because they are used to making sound ones, and Ps probably don't realize when they are being closed minded because they are so used to taking in more info and keeping an open mind.