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Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Skarekrow, Nov 16, 2013.

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  1. ReasonEnduring

    ReasonEnduring Permanent Fixture

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    Absolutely. I think the problem is though there are many people who interpret 'Anything is theoretically possible' to mean 'Nothing is Proven and everything is EQUALLY as possible', which of course is not the same thing.

    Also just because there have been mistake in science such as the Ether doesn't mean every scientific principle is equally as likely to be incorrect. There could be some grand conspiracy and the Earth is Flat, but the probability is so low its a bit absurd to throw out Round Earth because we haven't all individually circumnavigated the globe.

    But its true, my version of blue may be different to some one elses, but often there is a shared concept that something is blue even if we view it in different ways. The boundaries from one thing to another may vary, but we can also say whatever we individually see, the light wavelength and spectrum is the same even if our brains interpret it differently.

    I don't fully write off the existance of a god or gods (however I do catagorically rule out any purely benevolent god due to experience. People I know have suffered. An all powerful being could stop suffering, so therefore if there is any god it does not conform to my idea of benevolence).

    But I have never experienced anything I cannot explain through scientific means or random chance.

    The only thing I can conclusively prove is my own existance. My eyes, ears and other senses can be fooled or lied to, but my individuality is a certainty.

    From that point I must assume anything I can personally experience is at least partially true, and any scientific model that represents what I see is also at least particially true. From that I trust in experts to understand their field and move it forward, and when there is enough support in a field to suggest a change in knowledge then I accept that. When multiple theories compete I choose the one that fits best with the knowledge I have.

    Also the idea that any religious text is 100% literal is bit problematic consider many suggest that the world is X thousand years old when the science suggests its Billions, but again as long as that view isn't held by a majority or enforced by those in power it doesn't hamper scientific progress.
     
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  2. John K

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    But ..... what about the turtle, the elephants ...... :coldsweat::coldsweat::coldsweat:

    [​IMG]

    I don't believe in Australia myself - the concept is just too weird to be true ;)


    Definitely - though even with discredited ideas care has to be taken. I've come across ideas that speculate there is something resembling an ether after all though not the one falsified by Michaelson-Morley - I can't remember what it was about, but I think it arose from something esoteric in particle physics.

    As far as religious texts are concerned, the evidential basis is different to science, being historical instead, and quite fascinating. Our people (RC) treat the creation story as truth embodied in myth rather than being history. The New Testament, curiously, is the best attested written survival from antiquity - there are copies of some of its contents going back to the early second century, with independent pagan references to some of the events it records. There are hundreds of such early manuscripts over the first few centuries AD. The earliest survivals of most other books from classical times are copies (probably of other copies) dating from c 9/10 Century onwards so they are much less well attested, but we don't doubt the history of the Roman world that they record. Probably the standard of evidence therefore for the non-supernatural events in the New Testament is the best of any classical source. For example, there is very little doubt that Paul made the evangelical journeys recorded in Acts, and there is actual archeological evidence to back it up (such as stone inscriptions by local state officials in Asia Minor who were in office and mentioned in Acts and which line up date wise with Paul's schedules). Of course this is not the same as evidence for the supernatural events recorded, but it's impossible to claim the whole thing is fiction.
     
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  3. ReasonEnduring

    ReasonEnduring Permanent Fixture

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    Indeed. Also language is a very imprecise thing which also doesn't help from a scientific perspective. The number of times I've found the same word in different fields meaning very different things doesn't help matters. If there is something Ether-esk I hope it gets named something better. Naming a new principle after a defunked branch is a good way to confuse people.

    When it comes to religion the way I approach it is that any text written by humans is going to be flawed like humans. Most religions agree humans are imperfect so any religious text will have human frailties inherantly attached to it.

    There are plenty of moral and ethic lessons that can be taken from religious texts, but literal interpretation as the one true word of god gets a bit dangerous. It could be that parts are the dedicated will of a supernatural entity, but they have been written, re-written and re-interpretted so many times over centuries, and humanity and the world has changed since their original inception.

    I feel the lessons which transcend culture and times to be those of greatest value, and if there was a god, it would be the lessons which best apply to any time and place which are the true words of god, not restricted by limited human thinking of the day.

    Its why despite being mostly irreligious I wouldn't mind a chat with Jesus. Even if he isn't the son of god a lot of his ideas about social welbeing were centuries if not millenia ahead of their time.
     
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  4. John K

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    I'm dragging the ocean floor of my memory on the ether thing - it was probably another of those inconsistencies between relativity and quantum mechanics as to the nature of space and time, and it might only have been a speculation.

    Absolutely - language is definitely a barrier like you say. For physical science, I guess mathematics is the best way to do it in principle, but it's esoteric and accessible only to a few. In any case, mathematics is not the source of the axioms that are at the heart of any logical system of thought and they are still wide open to linguistic ambiguity.

    The historical critique of religious texts is fascinating but I have only a passing knowledge of it. The accuracy of transmission is a big issue, and must vary considerably between the great religious traditions. Buddhist scriptures were passed down by word of mouth for hundreds of years after Gautama died and the movement had branched out into a number of different forms by then. I'm not sure about Moslem texts, but the Christian New Testament was written down only a few decades after the events it records, while eye witnesses or people who knew them intimately were still around, and it's possible to compare modern copies with those that have survived from the beginning, so it's clear that they are accurate transmissions - it's a common misconception that they have suffered from serious modifications over the millenia. Where the uncertainties of the sort you describe come in is in the translations, and in the cultural differences between now and then which mean we understand the situations differently - and even more so from the way people interpret and apply the ideas to life situations. At the other extreme is a book like the I Ching, the Chinese Book of Changes, which is the oldest book in common use in the world - about 3000 years old. It became a precursor to Taoism and it's been modified constantly from generation to generation and has grown almost organically - but it's hardly recognisable as a book in terms we think of. It's an amazing work and well worth a play - it presents superficially as a book of divination not dissimilar in principle to the Tarot, but actually it embodies a pofound concept of change that is a rival and precursor to the idea of causality.
     
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  5. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    In regards to your discussion about mass meditation and real world effects - what do you say to this type of data? ^^^^

    Or these perhaps?
    Astin et al (2000). The Efficacy of “Distant Healing”: A Systematic Review of Randomized Trials

    Leibovici (2001). Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial

    Krucoff et al (2001).Integrative noetic therapies as adjuncts to percutaneous intervention during unstable coronary syndromes: Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Training (MANTRA) feasibility pilot

    Radin et al (2004). Possible effects of healing intention on cell cultures and truly random events.

    Krucoff et al (2005). Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II randomised study

    Benson et al (2006). Study of the therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients

    Masters & Spielmans (2007). Prayer and health: Review, meta-analysis, and research agenda

    Radin et al (2008). Compassionate intention as a therapeutic intervention by partners of cancer patients: Effects of distant intention on the patients’ autonomic nervous system.

    Schlitz et al (2012). Distant healing of surgical wounds: An exploratory study.

    Radin et al (2015). Distant healing intention therapies: An overview of the scientific evidence


    Cheers everyone!!!


    Sorry I've been a bit absent.
    BTW...this thread now has over 10,000 posts!!
    WOW!!


    I'll get back to you all most soon...please carry on the discussion!
    :<3white::<3white::<3white::<3white:
     
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  6. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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  7. Hostarius

    Hostarius Gimme that WOAD

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  8. John K

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    Great picks :D

    This of course is very true. I kid you not - I had a student job doing this one summer when I was 20. 11 hours a night, in a heatwave. Thank goodness they kicked all the temporary staff out after 2 weeks - mind you it's a good practice run for an eternity in hell ;)

     
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  9. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Been a minute since I've posted an article...



    Sense and Supersensibility: The Procession of the Damned
    “When so many hours have been spent convincing myself I am right,
    is there not some reason to fear I may be wrong?”
    ― Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility


    [​IMG]


    Consider the humble magnet.
    Hold the magnet over a pile of iron filings.

    The iron filings move without physical contact from the magnet.
    Sure, you can talk to me about electromagnetism.

    I can’t see it, though.
    Yet, it has a definite and demonstrable impact on the physical world that I can rely on.

    Likewise, gravity.
    We infer a presence that we cannot otherwise perceive.

    I jump out of a plane, I fall.
    We accept the existence of governing laws in the natural world on the basis of observable effects and the authority of the big brains who gave it a name.

    When you can observe an effect, but cannot perceive the cause, rather must through its repeatability assign a name to it (as a proper magnet will move iron with some degree of consistency), we call that cause “supersensible” or beyond the perception of our unaided senses.

    At the micro-level, with the aid of technology, we can sometimes begin to directly observe the existence of previously supersensible phenomena – sometimes, but not always.

    Often we find ourselves going down the rabbit hole of infinite inference.
    This is a problem amongst both skeptics and anomalists when faced with effects sans directly sensible causes, and in a world where science is relegated to public broadcasting and anomalies to the Discovery Channel, much like politics, we all live inside bubbles of belief and inference, lacking the ability to experience much directly.

    We may quibble about what constitutes sensible evidence for strange phenomena, but scientist and anomalist alike often commit the error of conflating their inference of the cause, with the cause itself.

    This bothered philosopher Immanuel Kant.
    A lot of things bothered Kant, from the Earth’s rotation to the nature of space and time.

    Kant argued that space, time, and causation are “sensibilities” and exist as “things-in themselves”, but their nature is unknowable – our mind shapes our experience and structures reality into a comprehensible whole.

    That is to say, the key to the universe is understanding the common structural elements of our experience, be the evidence of a thing sensible or supersensible.

    We are like sea creatures floating in the current as a variety of morsels rush by us, snatching them up, swallowing them if they taste good, and spiting them out if they don’t – what father of anomalistics Charles Fort meant when he talked about “a procession of the damned” as we twirl through his Super-Sargasso Sea.

    Another philosopher (because who else thinks about these things except philosophers) George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, in his Phenomenology of Mind took Kant one step further and argued,
    “The inner world, or the supersensible beyond, has, however, arisen: it comes to us out of the sphere of appearance, and the latter is its mediating agency: in other words, appearance is its essential nature and, in point of fact, its filling.
    The supersensible is the established truth of the sensible and perceptual.
    The truth of the sensible and the perceptual lies, however, in being appearance.
    The supersensible is then appearance qua appearance.
    We distort the proper meaning of this, if we take it to mean that the supersensible is therefore the sensible world, or the world as it is for immediate sense-certainty, and perception.
    For, on the contrary, appearance is just not the world of sense-knowledge and perception as positively being, but this world as superseded or established in truth as an inner world.
    It is often said that the supersensible is not appearance; but by appearance is thereby meant not appearance, but rather the sensible world taken as itself real actuality”.

    Many things exist around us in this supersensible realm of “appearance” that we take for granted, as our beliefs and inferences have common structural qualities, the essence of which we are taught from birth, worthy of exploration.

    Yet they remain appearances.
    This is not to deny the existence of an underlying stratum of concrete evidence, which might one day emerge from the supersensible to sensible realm, but until such time as this, we rely on inference only accessible through the structured perceiving of the unperceivable.

    A speck of dust is an orb is a ghost.
    A UFO is an alien craft is a trick of light is an interdimensional interloper.
    “Show me”, is the cry of the unreflective skeptic who equates inference with cause, while “understand me”, is the proper realm of the anomalist.

    What a vapid place the universe would be if it were filled with only unconditional universals, and how reductive our experience of consciousness would be. We can infer ideals, but this does not mean we can crystalize them, only draw them into our natural conceptions through their appearances, and through those appearances (which when it comes to strange phenomena, repeat, or to use Fort’s phrase, “the solidity of the procession as a whole”), perhaps strive to understand their irresistibleness.

    As journalist Tom Vanderbilt once said, “The road itself tells us far more than signs do.”
     
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  10. Sandie33

    Sandie33 Love Often & Absolutely ♡
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    Was thinking of you all today and hoping all is well. ♡
     
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  11. Kgal

    Kgal Magic Star Dust
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    We were referencing The Heart Math Institute earlier and here is a Free webinar series in which one of their members is presenting information. I have signed up.

    "We invite you to join the free online event Proven: Healing Breakthroughs Backed By Science, June 2 – June 10, 2020.

    Proven: A new 9‑part documentary series with host Nick Polizzi will explore the frontiers of human health and show the science that proves the power of complementary and "alternative" healing resources that abound in our world.

    Rollin McCraty, HeartMath Institute’s Director of Research, will be presenting in Episodes 1, 4, and 7. In these episodes, you will learn about neurocardiology (the intrinsic cardiac nervous system), heart resonance and coherence, HRV biofeedback, and the effect of positive and negative emotions on HRV.

    Each episode will provide you with effective (and safe) approaches to wellness, and it’s FREE to watch! Tune in online, June 2 – June 10, 5:00 p.m. Pacific Time – 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, (12:00 a.m. GMT)."

    https://proven.thesacredscience.com/?cookieUUID=769df14a-10a6-4f98-83e4-598ac7b7fe0e
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Thanks @Sandie33 for checking on me and thanks @Kgal for the link!


    Hey everyone...sorry I haven't been around or gotten back to you all very promptly.
    I'm still here...I just needed a serious break to deal with a round of new pain from a bunch of bone spurs in my neck pinching the nerve roots running through the foramen.
    Supposed to do some PT, though they have yet to call...just taking meds and trying to stretch it out to keep it open on my own (with mixed results).
    Anyhow...sleep is horrendous...almost a loathsome activity.
    Mentally/emotionally I'm hanging in there...I was a bit down for about 3 days but I never let that shit get it's hooks in me anymore.
    No sense suffering the future or past when the present is a handful by itself.
    Just very tired all the damn time.
    I plan to begin working my way back onto the forum here, but please don't feel personally slighted if I don't respond to you all right away.
    I'll eventually get back to everyone!
    I sincerely hope all you dear people are doing well and are feeling okay too?
    I've still been thinking of you all and sending my love mentally, lol.
    Working on feeling well enough to interact without being too wrapped up in the physical pain.
    I miss you all, I miss talking with you all, and I will see you/talk with you very soon I hope!
    Lots of love as always,
    M


    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Sandie33

    Sandie33 Love Often & Absolutely ♡
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    Good to see you for a moment! :D
    You take care, and we'll all be right here when you're feeling better. ♡
     
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  14. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    Good to hear from you even if it's just to check in while you focus on taking care of yourself. Wishing you well!
     
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  15. John K

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    I was thinking of you a short time before you posted this. Hope you get on top of things and back to normal soon. We are with you.

    :<3white:
     
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  16. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    So hello everyone.
    :<3white:

    I figured it was time to come out of the shadows...
    I was dealing with some rather severe neck pain from those pinched nerves...it got to the point where I couldn't turn my head or bend it in any direction without some nasty pain.
    Went to lots of physical therapy, acupuncture, and was meditating a lot...but it was gradually getting worse.
    Finally I was able to get some steroid injections directly into the foramen where the bone spurs are...at first I thought it was a fail....but a few days later the pain began to subside and now it's negligible...finally!
    It was pretty miserable.
    I was avoiding coming back here until I felt like I could actually be capable of giving people on here the proper attention I feel you all deserve.
    Like being a good friend to someone takes a certain amount of attention and time from one another.
    I just didn't feel like I could be a very good friend or very reliable for a while there...didn't want people to feel I was ignoring them or flaking out if I didn't respond to something said or asked.
    @Sandie33 texted me the other day to check up on me and I figured I'm feeling more up to it.
    (Thanks Sandie! :<3white:)

    Now I just have to get my sleeping schedule a bit more under control...lol...it's something like 1230-5am...then I have to get up and attempt to sleep sitting up while leaning forward into this inflatable travel pillow thingy I bought...after a certain number of hours of laying flat on my back, it starts to spasm quite painfully....so sitting up leaning forward really helps to relieve the pain...so I meditate and attempt to fall back asleep with my face pressed into the hole of the inflatable pillow thing.
    One might think I would fall over once asleep in said position, but it hasn't happened yet, lol.
    Then around 830ish I try to lie back down in bed for an hour and a half or so...sometimes getting more sleep, sometimes not.
    Then maybe later in the afternoon if I need to I try to meditate or sleep if I depending on how much or little I was able to get.
    It's pretty lame when you dread going to bed because you know waking up will be excruciatingly painful...but I think I've dealt with it rather well.
    Mentally I'm good...still been able to hold off any depression or anxiety issues...though the neck thing was definitely a test of my resolve in that department!
    Still occasionally treating the pain and associated issues with mushrooms but the time between has drastically increased, which is nice.
    Not that they aren't enjoyable...most of the time they are...the last time I felt incredibly centered and grounded and that was really helpful I feel.
    But there are still times where there is purging of negative emotional/physical/psychological/spiritual stress and whatnot that builds up.
    It's good to get it out, but it can be draining.
    Still the best medicine I have found after 20+ years of this nonsense hahaha.

    I have really missed everyone here!
    I've thought of you all on a near daily basis...but again, didn't feel like I was ready to be the good and reliable friend to you all that you all have always been to me.
    Spent some time floating around FB...but it's awfully negative these days...my god.
    Still, it was easy in that I didn't have to do much but scroll.
    Frankly I'm tried of it...it's fun for a while but it's the same old crap repackaged and reintroduced.
    Trump is still a giant fucking douche.
    Not sure he's hit his lowest yet...seems to be going quite insane lately.
    :m075:

    My dreams have really been something lately!
    I'll have to dedicate a few posts just on catching people up to them....if anyone is interested?
    Several have been very precognitive...with things happening the next day(s) that would make just coincidence seem far-fetched.
    Very bizarre!
    Meditation practice has gotten even stronger...it's been a lifesaver along with the enthogens.
    I was just reading an article the other day about microdosing LSD for pain...how there is legit proof of it changing the perception of pain in a person.
    https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/lsd-pain-tolerance-microdosing-effects
    Of course this has been known for some time...since early studies in the 60's...but because of abuse it was never fully fleshed out and explored properly.
    Study from 1964 - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1161566

    Other than that...not too much has been going down.
    My Son is driving...that's interesting!
    That was fun teaching him...it also gave us a lot of time just to talk about whatever.
    16-17 year olds aren't always the most talkative animals, lol.
    So that was nice to listen to his thoughts and ideas and what was going on in his head.
    I know I'm biased, but he is a really smart, kind, and socially/self-aware young man.

    The nearby city of Portland has been in everyones' newsfeed I'm sure...that's been strange.
    Just FYI...it's like a block and a half of SOME destruction....the entire city is NOT under siege like some news outlets would have you believe.
    Some people around my area are flying their Trump flags...I can't help but see swastikas every time.
    It's rather disheartening that people seem to gravitate to hate and segregationist type attitudes that seem better relegated to the past.
    I just don't get it...I almost feel sorry for them all...it's like a cult imho.

    Anyhow...I'm gonna give it my best shot being back on the forum!
    If I have to leave again, I'll take the formal "vacation" that is offered instead of leaving everyone in a quandary.
    So far though, it's been a month and my neck pain has only improved...things are normalizing as far as daily routines, and I really miss talking with everyone here!

    This forum is really a wonderful place, full of kind and genuine people, who truly want real connection, albeit over the internet, lol.
    I've missed everyone a great deal and am happy to be back.

    I am, at the moment going to lie down and meditate...but I look forward to catching up with everyone and reconnecting!
    As always, much love!
    M

    :<3white::<3white::<3white:
     
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  17. Reason

    Reason Mostly Peaceful

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    Welcome back!
     
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  18. OP
    Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Good to see you as well!
    :<3white:
    How are you doing on your end?
     
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