Left or Liberal? | Page 17 | INFJ Forum

Left or Liberal?

Left or Liberal?


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Indeed. INFJs are INtroverted Freemasons with Jewish roots. :p

Lodge Mother Kilwinning is a Masonic Lodge in Kilwinning, Scotland, under the auspices of the Grand Lodge of Scotland. It is number 0 (referred to as "nothing" and not zero) on the Roll, and is reputed to be the oldest Lodge not only in Scotland, but the world. It is thus styled The Mother Lodge of Scotland attributing its origins to the 12th Century, and is often called Mother Kilwinning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodge_Mother_Kilwinning

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China is already communist and is where the left intends to take the west. This ABC news australia clip below shows the communist technocracy that is already rapidly taking shape in china

it basically represents the end of the individual and of free expression and creativity and free thought and action as people are moulded by the state to decide their every move and word on the basis of whether or not the state would approve. Its rule through fear

Exposing China's Digital Dystopian Dictatorship | Foreign Correspondent

 
China is already communist and is where the left intends to take the west.

This is such utter BS.
Not the communist part, the intention part.
You speak of it as if they are lurking next-door...give me a percentage?
0.00000005%?
 
China is already communist and is where the left intends to take the west. This ABC news australia clip below shows the communist technocracy that is already rapidly taking shape in china

China is hardly even Maoist and not at all aligned with the ideals of Marx. Communism means the abolition of class in the form of salaried labour, the worker's ownership of the means of production and the dissolution of the state—there has never been communism. There is also a transitional form, characterised by Marx's phrase from each according to ability, to each according to need, which is socialism. The Chinese government claims to be transitioning into communism, that is, it claims to be socialist, but it is clearly neither communist nor socialist by any broadly agreed historical definition. Now China's failure is a failure of the left—as someone on the left, quite unlike most capitalists, I have no problem accepting our more calamitous failures and opposing tendencies (the devaluing of democracy, notions of socialism in one country, etc.) that aim to reproduce them. But any theoretically literate Marxist (and certainly most from the non-Marxist left, such as anarchists and non-Marxist democratic socialists) would be disgusted by China's current social organisation. Keep in mind that for Marx, something he shared with many the right-wing. traditionalist critics of liberal capitalism, the alienation of the individual was one of the great evils of capitalism—he would have seen China's hideous deployment of technology as abhorrent.
 
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This is such utter BS.
Not the communist part, the intention part.
You speak of it as if they are lurking next-door...give me a percentage?
0.00000005%?

well the percentage of the people who have responded to the poll is 60% communist

should we take that to be representative of the forum membership or do you think some people are just afraid to speak up?
 
China is hardly even Maoist and not at all aligned with the ideals of Marx. Communism means the abolition of class in the form of salaried labour, the worker's ownership of the means of production and the dissolution of the state—there has never been communism. There is also a transitional form, characterised by Marx's phrase from each according to ability, to each according to need, which is socialism. The Chinese government claims to be transitioning into communism, that is, it claims to be socialist, but it is clearly neither communist nor socialist by any broadly agreed historical definition. Now China's failure is a failure of the left—as someone on the left, quite unlike most capitalists, I have no problem accepting our more calamitous failures and opposing tendencies (the devaluing of democracy, notions of socialism in one country, etc.) that aim to reproduce them. But any theoretically literate Marxist (and certainly most from the non-Marxist left, such as anarchists and non-Marxist democratic socialists) would be disgusted by China's current social organisation. Keep in mind that for Marx, something he shared with many the right-wing. traditionalist critics of liberal capitalism, the alienation of the individual was one of the great evils of capitalism—he would have seen China's hideous deployment of technology as abhorrent.

I tried to have that conversation earler with a forum member who claimed they were an 'anarchist'

i told them that the technocracy that is coming down the pipeline would be the worst enemy of an anarchist because it represents total centralised control in the hands of the oligarchic class who control the technology

do you agree?
 
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there has never been communism.

maybe it was never intended to come about

maybe the people who conceived it were actually concealing another agenda behind all the hi faluting language and that's why it has NEVER delivered freedom for the workers

this leaves me wondering how many times people need to get their fingers burned with this shit before they finally realise that communism was NEVER MEANT TO LIBERATE THEM
 
the technocracy that is coming down the pipeline would be the worst enemy of an anarchist because it represents total centralised control in the hands of the oligarchic class who control the technology
do you agree?

Yes, even though I am not an anarchist (I do believe in the withering away of the state but believe it must be achieved through some transitional period), the threat of a technocratic oligarchy is concerning. And I would oppose any such system of government, be it left or right.

maybe it was never intended to come about

No doubt there are some who have used the rhetoric of transition and Marxism to disguise ignoble ambitions—like most on the left (a broad umbrella that encompasses many opposing views), I have plenty to say in critique of much historical and contemporary Marxism. I also believe that there have been authentic communists, some misguided but others essentially right. As with any idea (including ideas on the right), it is open to abuse, misapplication, etc.
 
Yes, even though I am not an anarchist (I do believe in the withering away of the state but believe it must be achieved through some transitional period), the threat of a technocratic oligarchy is concerning. And I would oppose any such system of government, be it left or right.
No doubt there are some who have used the rhetoric of transition and Marxism to disguise ignoble ambitions—like most on the left (a broad umbrella that encompasses many opposing views), I have plenty to say in critique of much historical and contemporary Marxism. I also believe that there have been authentic communists, some misguided but others essentially right. As with any idea (including ideas on the right), it is open to abuse, misapplication, etc.

what are your thoughts on trotsky being funded by a capitalist oligarch (and member of the wallstreet banking fraternity) Jacob Schiff to go to russia and carry out a revolution?
 
what are your thoughts on trotsky being funded by a capitalist oligarch (and member of the wallstreet banking fraternity) Jacob Schiff to go to russia and carry out a revolution?

Oh, it was quite clever. And Schiff only realised his mistake too late, even asking for the money back!
 
Oh, it was quite clever. And Schiff only realised his mistake too late, even asking for the money back!

I don't think it was a mistake. i think he knew exactly what he was doing

I think he funded trotsky and lenin and i think they returned to russia with trained revolutionaries in the same way that the CIA trains revolutionaries in the school of americas today (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation)

I think schiff had already funded the militarisation of the japanese so that they would then go to war with russia in the east and then he funded trotsky and lenin to co-opt the revolutionary movement in the west of russia

this then unleashed a terror that saw 1.7 million people murdered by the bolsheviks who then went on to kill many tens of millions more through social engineering and collectivisation
 
I don't think it was a mistake. i think he knew exactly what he was doing

I'm sure he thought so, at first, but after funding Lenin and Trotsky, Schiff not only demanded his money returned, but went on to fund anti-Bolshevik groups.
 
I'm sure he thought so, at first, but after funding Lenin and Trotsky, Schiff not only demanded his money returned, but went on to fund anti-Bolshevik groups.

oh sure they fund both sides definately

I'm pretty sure they are currently orchestrating a form of civil war in the US

prof anthony sutton charted how they funded the rise of not only the bolsheviks but also the nazis

out of the global coflict that then emerged from that they were able to justify the creation of ever more globalised infrastructure at for example the bretton woods conference and also with the creation of the United Nations a de facto world government to replace their previous project the league of nations
 
Exposing China's Digital Dystopian Dictatorship | Foreign Correspondent


the same big tech companies that have been helping china do this are doing the same things in the west too...

Assange Warns About AI, Is Beyonce A Witch, And Apples Trust Score Exposed

 
out of the global coflict that then emerged from that they were able to justify the creation of ever more globalised infrastructure at for example the bretton woods conference and also with the creation of the United Nations a de facto world government to replace their previous project the league of nations

Man, I don't know what you're on, but it seems to be good stuff. What did the "world government" UN do when Russia annexed Crimea, in blatant disregard of one of the most essential tenets of international law? It complained and did nothing. What did it do earlier when the US unilaterally decided to attack Iraq? It complained and did nothing. What does it do when Israel colonizes Palestine? It complains and does nothing. The UN doesn't have too much power, it lacks power. I can tell you that, I work with them.

But no doubt you'll have your ready-made little narrative which you read somewhere on a conspiracy website that you'll have in answer to me. It's just a pity that you're parroting what those websites and authors are saying without any sense of critical distance whatever. Seems like a waste of your intellect.
 
So liberals are like centrists?
Americans are weird. It's like they're just starting to discover there's more flavours other than red and blue. It's really sad watching them go from the first president who tried to build the foundation of a universal healthcare to a guy who says he doesn't believe in climate change.
 
It's like they're just starting to discover there's more flavours other than red and blue.

Pretty true in some respects tbh
 
well the percentage of the people who have responded to the poll is 60% communist

should we take that to be representative of the forum membership or do you think some people are just afraid to speak up?

That is fantasy land you are talking about.
Okay...find a Communist Rep on the forum...
I’ll wait.
 
Man, I don't know what you're on, but it seems to be good stuff. What did the "world government" UN do when Russia annexed Crimea, in blatant disregard of one of the most essential tenets of international law? It complained and did nothing. What did it do earlier when the US unilaterally decided to attack Iraq? It complained and did nothing. What does it do when Israel colonizes Palestine? It complains and does nothing. The UN doesn't have too much power, it lacks power. I can tell you that, I work with them.

But no doubt you'll have your ready-made little narrative which you read somewhere on a conspiracy website that you'll have in answer to me. It's just a pity that you're parroting what those websites and authors are saying without any sense of critical distance whatever. Seems like a waste of your intellect.

You are looking at this far too narrowly if you think the power of the world government devotees lies solely in the UN

They have influence through all levels of society

The UN is simply part of the globalised infrastructure they have put in place along with institutions like the IMF, world bank and the EU

The power these people have is not just hard power in the sense of being able to stop a country doing something as their longterm aim is to see those countries lose their sovereignty and that is achieved through a number of methods for example economic warfare and social engineering

if you look at the US for example it had an economic meltdown in 2008 didn't it? was that just an accident?

was it an accident that loans were given to subprime mortgage borrowers who wouldn't be able to honour those loans once interest rates rose? was it an accident those toxic mortgages were then packaged into derivatives and sold around the global market? Was it an accident that the banks rating agencies rated those derivatives as triple A products when they were garbage? Was it an accident that the governments then used taxpayer money to bail out those banks?

How about the social side of things? Is it an accident that the US is teetering on the brink of civil war?
 
So liberals are like centrists?
Americans are weird. It's like they're just starting to discover there's more flavours other than red and blue. It's really sad watching them go from the first president who tried to build the foundation of a universal healthcare to a guy who says he doesn't believe in climate change.

does he say that he doesn't believe that the climate changes or does he say that he is not convinced that the changes are driven by the burning of fossil fuels?

maybe trump believes that the suns activity is what drives climate change?