Is capitalism the best model? | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Is capitalism the best model?

~jet said:
Even if my business made 250 billion a year, I personally just don't need that kind of money (3.5mil/yr) for me and just for me.
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I get what you mean, but I think it gets reallllllly dangerous when a group is deciding what is or isn't needed. If everyone was going off 'need,' we'd all be in the wilderness gathering food right now. Beyond food, water, and air, I don't think anyone can decide what need equates to. Barely any of what we make is 'need,' so I don't think any kind of cap can be put on was is appropriate. I definitely understand that salaries get ridiculous on rare occasions, but there is a lot that is not factored in and its my opinion that it is nobody's place to say what is beyond a need or is too much. It just doesn't really matter if their salary sounds silly; if the company thinks they're worth it, then hey, their business. Its just not worth getting worked up about someone being overpaid imo.
 
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Chamomile said:
I get what you mean, but I think it gets reallllllly dangerous when a group is deciding what is or isn't needed. If everyone was going off 'need,' we'd all be in the wilderness gathering food right now. Beyond food, water, and air, I don't think anyone can decide what need equates to. Barely any of what we make is 'need,' so I don't think any kind of cap can be put on was is appropriate. I definitely understand that salaries get ridiculous on rare occasions, but there is a lot that is not factored in and its my opinion that it is nobody's place to say what is beyond a need or is too much. It just doesn't really matter if their salary sounds silly; if the company thinks they're worth it, then hey, their business. Its just not worth getting worked up about someone being overpaid imo.
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But the more money they "make", the more they can invest and truly become part of the small capitalist class. I'm all for getting returns for one's effort, but when you have to have millions to have any sort of power, and the rest of the millions of people have to scrape by at minuscule wages in comparison (and I'm talking about the likes of people who invest ungodly amounts to make returns in ungodly amounts, or play the stock market with other people's savings like bankers) there is a reason to be upset. If you have money, you buy politicians, and you then get laws passed in your favor that hurt a large majority of the rest of the people in the country.

In capitalism money>people.
 
bamf said:
In capitalism money>people.
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Precisely.

In a system where people>money, people take care of each other and thus everyone is taken care of... this is not mutually exclusive with the idea of doing well for one's self, nor is the notion of invesment in capitol mutually exclusive with the idea of taking care of others around you... but in a system where money is king, the rewards go quickest and easiest to those with the worst of intentions... the cheats, the liars, the abusers, and the warmongers. The richest of the rich in the world today do include a handful of entrepreneurs and inventors... but the majority of them are money-movers; the same people who invented the derivatives and gambled with people's mortgages and caused the current crisis and still, even now, continue to reap the rewards for having done so instead of paying the prices for their misdeeds.
 
My point is to hate the system, not total strangers. If I was offered that kind of salary, I would take it, and I think most people would. That doesn't mean I value people less than money. Seems to me a lot of people don't see making money in excessive amounts as being the direct cause of other people's misery. So maybe a less 'you're the devil' and more 'so about your paycheck...' approach might educate people more on system. I just don't think it gets anyone anywhere and unless you're suggesting an alternative to the system... I don't think it gets taken as anything but a rant =/

I'm aware of the impact of our system on the rest of the world, I think it won't change if the method of explaining it stays this way.
 
I just read that in 5 year America is going to be behind China as a world dominate r. So in 5 years we won't be worried about it any more. We will be like what happened to Capitalism?
 
In a capitalist system, money is the currency of power. In a socialist or communist system, one's official position and/or social status is the currency of power. An asshole is still going to screw people regardless of the system. This utopian idea that socialism is going to help the masses have a better life for less work, stress and angst is naive. Look at what is happening in France today. It's benefits are unsupportable by a system where people retire at 60 (now 62, after much protest) and the work week is limited to 35 hours. Reality bites. Life is a struggle for all in any system. At least, in a capitalist system, with luck, talent, courage, and hard work, there is the possibility of succeeding beyond universal mediocrity.
 
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efromm said:
I just read that in 5 year America is going to be behind China as a world dominate r. So in 5 years we won't be worried about it any more. We will be like what happened to Capitalism?
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Well in 66 years we get nuked, so make sure to have a reservation in your nearest Vault-tech vault!
 
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Norton said:
This utopian idea that socialism is going to help the masses have a better life for less work, stress and angst is naive. Look at what is happening in France today. It's benefits are unsupportable by a system where people retire at 60 (now 62, after much protest) and the work week is limited to 35 hours. Reality bites. Life is a struggle for all in any system. At least, in a capitalist system, with luck, talent, courage, and hard work, there is the possibility of succeeding beyond universal mediocrity.
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^this.
 
~jet said:
What is pure capitalism, though?

I do tend to agree, though, on the second part... Civilization isn't civilized if people are preying upon one another in the name of profit... but it can't advance either if no one wants to strive to be bigger and better than they are. There has to be some kind of balance between the two so that people do reach for the stars without looking upon their neighbors as little better than meat and fuel.
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Yeah, I dislike the mantra eat or be eaten. It's possible to generate revenue without slamming people imo. Look at google. If you're an investor, google is a safe bet. Their mantra is "don't be evil" and they live up to it. Look at the free products and services they offer, their objective is to make the world more efficient, money second. If everyone adopted this the world would be far better. It reminds me of the episode of king of the hill where hank makes 0 sales and everyone else is making a sh*t ton by being charming and suave and telling the customers what they wanted to here, not what was, with their commissions. What ended up happening is the customers came back with complaints etc, while hanks strategy ended up working and ensured customer loyalty because he didn't try to coerce anyone, he offered value, explained the product, and let the customer decide. It's a cartoon but it was a beautiful point imo. The immediate reward of quick sales/quick fixes is too tempting for a lot of people. But it never works in the long run. When I see this starting to happen I know the business will fail eventually.
 
donkeybals said:
Yeah, I dislike the mantra eat or be eaten. It's possible to generate revenue without slamming people imo. Look at google. If you're an investor, google is a safe bet. Their mantra is "don't be evil" and they live up to it. Look at the free products and services they offer, their objective is to make the world more efficient, money second. If everyone adopted this the world would be far better. It reminds me of the episode of king of the hill where hank makes 0 sales and everyone else is making a sh*t ton by being charming and suave and telling the customers what they wanted to here, not what was, with their commissions. What ended up happening is the customers came back with complaints etc, while hanks strategy ended up working and ensured customer loyalty because he didn't try to coerce anyone, he offered value, explained the product, and let the customer decide. It's a cartoon but it was a beautiful point imo. The immediate reward of quick sales/quick fixes is too tempting for a lot of people. But it never works in the long run. When I see this starting to happen I know the business will fail eventually.
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Sorry. Eat or be eaten is true of all systems, because all systems involve humans. Competition is an innate human trait and it's not going away. The only reason Google is able to maintain that meaningless "mantra" is because they're making tons of money. Their stock is selling for $532.82 (close of today), for God's sake. Don't be naive. Whether it's money or some other virtual currency of power, some people are going to follow their natural inclination to accumulate and exert power over others. If you're smart, you'll figure out a way to insulate yourself from the worst and benefit from the best aspects of your economic system. Don't waste your money on ephemeral junk. Invest in growth and income producing equities. Be frugal and live below your means. (e.g., Brew your own coffee instead of spending $500 or more a year at Starbucks.) Learn the miracle of compounded interest. It doesn't take a genius. The best way to be rich is not to act rich. You live in a system that you're not going to change and if you think so, dream on.
 
invisible said:
i see healthcare and education as basically having the status of human rights but i recognise that other people do not agree with this belief of mine. it disturbs me that wealth seems to become to some extent hereditary in this sort of arrangement, and so through no fault of their own children who have not had an opportunity to earn money to take care of themselves don't get the healthcare that children with rich parents get. it's supposed to be fair but it doesn't seem that way. however i do very much believe in private property and that people should be able to accumulate glamorous worldly possessions if they find meaning in that.
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+1
 
They only way to pay for Americas woes is to increase productivity and make more goods here at home. Everything we would like to do in this country requires money. I don't know why the Dems and Repub's refuse to get America growing again. But they are both bought and paid for as far as I can tell. Dismantling our manufacturing was a very bad mistake. And telling kids that they can get 70,000 right out of college did not help either. We cannot be a consumer and service only economy. Some jobs have to be done that others won't do here. And we need these people. People used to be able to make a decent living without a degree. I have seen this change so much in my short 39 years. So much so that I am changing careers... Maybe even Countries... Oh Canada.....
 
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efromm said:
They only way to pay for Americas woes is to increase productivity and make more goods here at home. Everything we would like to do in this country requires money. I don't know why the Dems and Repub's refuse to get America growing again. But they are both bought and paid for as far as I can tell. Dismantling our manufacturing was a very bad mistake. And telling kids that they can get 70,000 right out of college did not help either. We cannot be a consumer and service only economy. Some jobs have to be done that others won't do here. And we need these people. People used to be able to make a decent living without a degree. I have seen this change so much in my short 39 years. So much so that I am changing careers... Maybe even Countries... Oh Canada.....
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We make plenty of goods here. We're the most productive country in the world as a matter of fact. It's just what we produce that makes you say this. We produce goods that involve lots of human capital and skilled labor.

Sure, the little Indonesian child makes more shirts per day than I do but I know how to do calculus. I have critical thinking skills on an academic level whereas that child can probably not read.

Honestly, the things that China produces for us are only really in places like our toy-stores. They make garbage. Useless junk that ends up in the trash. You want my opinion? The world will be a better place when all children have a chance at a basic education and when we start to produce shit that isn't junk. Be consumers of services instead of products (???).
 
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bickelz said:
We make plenty of goods here. We're the most productive country in the world as a matter of fact. It's just what we produce that makes you say this. We produce goods that involve lots of human capital and skilled labor.

Sure, the little Indonesian child makes more shirts per day than I do but I know how to do calculus. I have critical thinking skills on an academic level whereas that child can probably not read.

Honestly, the things that China produces for us are only really in places like our toy-stores. They make garbage. Useless junk that ends up in the trash. You want my opinion? The world will be a better place when all children have a chance at a basic education and when we start to produce shit that isn't junk. Be consumers of services instead of products (???).
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Ummm I disagree. Have you seen Detroit? How about Pitts-berg? Steel production is at an all time low. We do not even cut lumber for our own use. We buy it from Canada now. Same with oil. We closed down the ship yards in California. Our ammunition is being made over seas in china. Mining is lower too. How many shoe companies are in the United States now? How about televisions? Or computers? Even the drywall we use in houses comes from china as well as the majority of light fixtures. And they are recalling the drywall because it's hazardous to have in your home. Look at all the junk that china sells us that's unsafe from tooth paste to toys. It's poison. We have to stop kidding ourselves here. We as a country are on the decline. And I am not the only one who sees this.
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/112616/imf-bombshell-age-america-end-marketwatch

​
 
Good ol' NAFTA and the WTO working to make the world a better place...
 
Norton said:
Sorry. Eat or be eaten is true of all systems, because all systems involve humans. Competition is an innate human trait and it's not going away. The only reason Google is able to maintain that meaningless "mantra" is because they're making tons of money. Their stock is selling for $532.82 (close of today), for God's sake. Don't be naive. Whether it's money or some other virtual currency of power, some people are going to follow their natural inclination to accumulate and exert power over others. If you're smart, you'll figure out a way to insulate yourself from the worst and benefit from the best aspects of your economic system. Don't waste your money on ephemeral junk. Invest in growth and income producing equities. Be frugal and live below your means. (e.g., Brew your own coffee instead of spending $500 or more a year at Starbucks.) Learn the miracle of compounded interest. It doesn't take a genius. The best way to be rich is not to act rich. You live in a system that you're not going to change and if you think so, dream on.
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It's a distorted view. You can add value to the world and make money from it. Google is doing it. The corporation was built upon that motto, and they keep adding value and contributing useful tools to the world. For free. I don't why you went the penny pinching route. Anyway, sit and brew your cheap coffee in your house, I'll go to starbucks because it's fun.
 
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