Is capitalism the best model? | Page 4 | INFJ Forum

Is capitalism the best model?

Ummm I disagree. Have you seen Detroit? How about Pitts-berg? Steel production is at an all time low. We do not even cut lumber for our own use. We buy it from Canada now. Same with oil. We closed down the ship yards in California. Our ammunition is being made over seas in china. Mining is lower too. How many shoe companies are in the United States now? How about televisions? Or computers? Even the drywall we use in houses comes from china as well as the majority of light fixtures. And they are recalling the drywall because it's hazardous to have in your home. Look at all the junk that china sells us that's unsafe from tooth paste to toys. It's poison. We have to stop kidding ourselves here. We as a country are on the decline. And I am not the only one who sees this.
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/112616/imf-bombshell-age-america-end-marketwatch


Well, yeah, of course we're in decline. That's a consequence of free trade. It makes the poorer countries richer and us poorer. The global economic system actually spreads out wealth where trade is taking place. Kind of ironic that capitalism would spread the wealth around.
 
If spreading the wealth means lining the pockets of the super rich.
 
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If spreading the wealth means lining the pockets of the super rich.

Again, more irony. What free trade eventually does is ship jobs elsewhere, spreading the wealth around. This has more to do with a purer free market though and really applies best to manufaturing jobs where oppotunity costs are lower elsewhere.
 
Well, yeah, of course we're in decline. That's a consequence of free trade. It makes the poorer countries richer and us poorer. The global economic system actually spreads out wealth where trade is taking place. Kind of ironic that capitalism would spread the wealth around.

All I gotta say is I don't wanna live in Detroit or Chicago. Decline means civil unrest. And without jobs theft goes up as well as murder and all crime. We need jobs for our people. And with Mexico encouraging their people to head north we have a double whammy for the working class. And a decline in people who are willing to work, that would rather get paid to stay home. Those days are numbered too. Freeloaders are killing this country...​
 
All I gotta say is I don't wanna live in Detroit or Chicago. Decline means civil unrest. And without jobs theft goes up as well as murder and all crime. We need jobs for our people. And with Mexico encouraging their people to head north we have a double whammy for the working class. And a decline in people who are willing to work, that would rather get paid to stay home. Those days are numbered too. Freeloaders are killing this country...​

And by freeloaders, you mean rich people who don't pay their taxes as much as they are able to? I wouldn't call the out of work people in Detroit freeloaders. I think a welfare type state reduces things such as crime. I don't think the country is dying. Honestly, think about it in the context of history. We will eventually reach a more stable equilibrium. You just have to trust the system and mend it where it calls for mending. Our system is very dynamic. I don't want to sound like I am minimizing some of our problems though. We are in a bit of a shit-hole and we need somebody to tell the crazy right wing how it is.

Believe it or not tea party people, you need to pay taxes in order to settle the debt. You cannot cut taxes and reduce the debt. You could cut spending a shit-ton so that the government profits off of taxes each year until we're out of debt but then two things would happen...

1. We would have virtually no government. Where would we cut? It would all have to go. Programs that help the poor, the military budget, medicare, social security. All of it.
2. If these cuts happen and the government makes a profit so that it can reduce the debt, people will be complaining that their damn taxes are too high and we would start all over again.
 
And by freeloaders, you mean rich people who don't pay their taxes as much as they are able to? I wouldn't call the out of work people in Detroit freeloaders. I think a welfare type state reduces things such as crime. I don't think the country is dying. Honestly, think about it in the context of history. We will eventually reach a more stable equilibrium. You just have to trust the system and mend it where it calls for mending. Our system is very dynamic. I don't want to sound like I am minimizing some of our problems though. We are in a bit of a shit-hole and we need somebody to tell the crazy right wing how it is.

Believe it or not tea party people, you need to pay taxes in order to settle the debt. You cannot cut taxes and reduce the debt. You could cut spending a shit-ton so that the government profits off of taxes each year until we're out of debt but then two things would happen...

1. We would have virtually no government. Where would we cut? It would all have to go. Programs that help the poor, the military budget, medicare, social security. All of it.
2. If these cuts happen and the government makes a profit so that it can reduce the debt, people will be complaining that their damn taxes are too high and we would start all over again.

The free loaders are the illegal aliens sucking up all the welfare and hospital care across the entire USA. Most people get an earned income credit yet they pay zero income tax. If the Congress would have not touched social security it would be fine. And it should be for those who pay for it. Not those who don't!

I personally know people who have been unemployed for two years. They have had job offers but have decided to stay unemployed. The average 20 year old wants nothing to do with the trades anymore. And who can blame them. Half of the guys I have worked with do not speak English. And despise me because I am a white male. They have zero desire to be an American.

Like I said before without jobs we have no government. Their is no way to pay for all they things they want right now. And if you took all the money from the rich we would still have a deficit. We are bankrupt. And inflation is right around the corner. It's already happening to the value of a dollar.

The people in Detroit caused the problem in the first place through labor unions. It upped the price of a new car. So many Americans bought Toyota's and Honda's. They are non union shops and they are doing fine. I have worked with unions too. And sure the pay is good. But if another person does the job worse than you do they still get paid the same. So they know they don't have to produce. And they go around and destroy non union shops with law suits and slander. Has happened to my family numerous times. So much for a free market.

I am old enough to know that you can't trust the system. It lies to keep it's self in power. And both parties suck balls! I hold them equally responsible for bankrupting this once great nation. Neither deserves to be in Washington period. We don't need government handouts. We need jobs. Jobs are the only way for Americans to feel good about themselves. For them to build pride again. And enjoy prosperity. If Detroit had jobs things would be different there. Since the don't people don't care and fall into despair.
 


The people in Detroit caused the problem in the first place through labor unions.

Unfortunately, this is where I will draw the line with my argument. I spend enough time on the CNSnews comments section arguing/trolling about this kind of thing. When people say stuff like this, it not only makes me mad, it makes me lose faith in America and people as a whole.This may be overtly generalized but it's how I feel.

Due to your stance on this subject, I will no longer continue this conversation. I need to think about things that are more important to me right now that don't make me so angry.
 
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Psttt, illegals pay taxes. The IRS hands out tax ID numbers for income tax, they pay sales tax, they pay housing tax, but the only public services they are eligible for are public education for their kids, and emergency medical treatment. They actually put more into taxes than they get out of it. If they don't pay income taxes it's because American "business" men are hiring them without getting IRS ID numbers. They still pay other taxes if they somehow avoid the IRS, unless every single penny they make is sent by foot back to Mexico.

Also, they wouldn't have to come here for work if
1. We didn't use and abuse the Braceros program before it was discontinued
2. Treat agricultural workers like absolute shit
3. Subsidize our farmers but through NAFTA make it illegal for Mexico to do the same, thus forcing the agricultural workers into America to be essentially raped
4. If NAFTA and the WTO didn't exist
5. Saw people as people, especially indigenous to the land, and if we stopped shitting all over the treaty of Guadeloupe Hildalgo.

ect ect
 
Psttt, illegals pay taxes. The IRS hands out tax ID numbers for income tax, they pay sales tax, they pay housing tax, but the only public services they are eligible for are public education for their kids, and emergency medical treatment. They actually put more into taxes than they get out of it. If they don't pay income taxes it's because American "business" men are hiring them without getting IRS ID numbers. They still pay other taxes if they somehow avoid the IRS, unless every single penny they make is sent by foot back to Mexico.

Also, they wouldn't have to come here for work if
1. We didn't use and abuse the Braceros program before it was discontinued
2. Treat agricultural workers like absolute shit
3. Subsidize our farmers but through NAFTA make it illegal for Mexico to do the same, thus forcing the agricultural workers into America to be essentially raped
4. If NAFTA and the WTO didn't exist
5. Saw people as people, especially indigenous to the land, and if we stopped shitting all over the treaty of Guadeloupe Hildalgo.

ect ect

My future father in law and I were talking about this the other day. And you are right they steal the illegals money. But when they lie to him and present false documents they fine him for it. Right now as it stands almost half of his work force is being looked at by the government for fraud. And guess who is getting fined? He is. They present identification that looks so real that he cannot tell the difference. There is no way to check social security numbers on the spot. Something we should fix. But he is held responsible for them lying to him? He pays them well most make $45 and hour. Not bad for the trades. One in which most young kids won't do. I don't blame them for wanting to be here. I blame the government. Eventually I am headed for Canada. So I will be the same as them. Except Canada will deport me without proper documentation. Many illegals do construction now it pays better...
 
Yup, the government doesn't care. They create work incentives to draw the labor here from Mexico. Agriculture is still a big employer for immigrants, legal or not, and with all of the subsidies and laws pertaining to the "protection" of giant corporate farms and packing plants, the labor force can be paid below minimum wage, legally.

The IRS doesn't look into SS numbers, and I doubt it will. They'll keep the federal with-holdings of illegal immigrants so as to feed a couple billion into SS without the workers ever claiming it, and then they'll fine the shit out of small business that employs these workers. The government won't change it because it works well for them. Everyone else, Americans and Mexicans, will continue to be shat on.

Our corporations will continue to threaten to sue Mexico through NAFTA should they ever act in a way as to secure their own economy. Corporations thrive on the consumer state that Mexico is in (we take their land, build farms/plants and dump products, package them near the boarder, and then ship them back into Mexico state-side) and the hordes of workers forced out of their trades back home. When small business gets shut down for hiring these workers, corporations eat up the market space, and then lobby (buy) for protection to use undocumented workers through incentive programs, subsidies, and work-contract programs such as the past Braceros program.

It won't change from within because they have a perfect program coupled with propaganda that keeps the working-class divided on false ideological lines.
 
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When I dated a guy from the US he told me a lot about how the US education system works, and I have to say that I was pretty disgusted at the inequality of publically educated children vs privately educated ones.

I've come to the conclusion that a good balance between the principles of capitalism and socialism is the best way to go. There are things that I just consider to be the right of an individual living in a certain country, ie education, healthcare etc. While I wouldn't take away peoples rights to have private healthcare, I would never argue that because people can choose to go private we should make the public system worse than the private one to force people to get private health insurance.
The same goes for education. The conservative government we were forced to suffer for 17 years poured money into the private system in order to encourage more people to use it, while public schools were given the absolute minimum. A child's success shouldn't be based upon how much money their parents earn but on their academic achievement and ability.

I was one of the few students to do well in my year and our school was one of the better public ones, but when I went away to a music camp at a private school I was disgusted to see their music department and compare it to our own. millions must have gone into it, and they had a piano in every room, whereas our school had but one to share between all of us.

I would like to see either public schools have the same resources as the private ones or private education abolished completely so that all children have the same start in life and thus university places awarded to the deserving, and not just the rich.

At the same time people should be able to earn a living and earn a reasonably well-off one if they are prepared to put the effort in. However I dislike seeing business and bank CEOs etc earning 6 figures even after they have retired. Capitalism run rampant is a large cause for the recent economic crisis and I think that allowing people to earn this much and be payed this much even after they have finished working is just irrisponsible. Noone actually needs that much money.
 
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Well, it's based on the idea that open competition with everyone having access to the same resources and opportunities makes it a equal opportunity system. In theory, this should work but the problem is rarely are there not people born to privilege who're not going to have an advantage. The most damaging thing is the insistence that if you work hard then you will achieve financial success in the long term - a dream which hasn't really panned out for a lot of people, who work in very difficult jobs everyday but yet see no improvement in their income stream or circumstances.

And of course it's also based on a competition of particular set of skills or competencies, which are constantly changing which give some the ability to achieve more compared to others who did not have the chance at developing those competencies early enough to be competitive with everyone else.
 
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Well, yeah, of course we're in decline. That's a consequence of free trade. It makes the poorer countries richer and us poorer. The global economic system actually spreads out wealth where trade is taking place. Kind of ironic that capitalism would spread the wealth around.

Well, no... and yes.

It is a consequence of free trade... and, you know, the lucky indian worker is a little better off than they were... but at the same time, ginormous corps like Monsanto are abusing them so badly that farmer suicide is up by 600% wherever the corp goes.

We CAN find examples where 'they get richer as we get poorer' is true, but these are exceptions. The people getting richer are the CEOs and Fund managers who run and exploit the declining wealth of America (and other developed nations) to buy half-asked products made by near-slave-labor workers in undeveloped nations. And no, that's not to blame those workers... Apple makes their stuff in China, too.. but they're still high quality. These poor people are making what they are being told to make, which means the crap that is on our shelves is not their fault, but the fault of the CEOs who are doing everything they can to cut every corner they can (including employing people at near-slave-labor wages) to line their own pockets.

Further, free trade has a habit of hurting BOTH sides of any given border. NAFTA, for example, has done incredible harm to both the USA and Mexico. It sounds like a nice idea but, because we here in the state have our tax money taken from us (in part) and given to corn producers (which now accounts, in one industrialized format or another, for 40% of everything we eat, be it corn, corn meal, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, etc, among other non-food products.) This absolutely MURDERED the lower subsistence classes of Mexico which relied on corn for any hope of income. They could not possibly compete with the pseudoprices set by taxpayer funded corn production.

The net result was a very large body of desperate laborers looking for work... and all they could do was look to the north where even the most crude jobs paid far better and the business owner were more than happy to fire their native-born laborers (who had been raised to expect higher wages and better benefits) in favor of masses of pliable worker who competed against each other and ensured they'd never have to be given a raise (being fireable at any time.) These people got incrementally richer than they were, but are still desperately poor... while all the people they replaced are suddenly left with mortgages, car payments, medical bills, school loans, etc, to pay and no means of paying it. The ripples spread across both sides of the border, destabilizing the security of workers in both regimes.

The only beneficiaries were the corporations, business owners, and CEOs who were willing to gouge the worker for even more profits than they were already making before NAFTA went into effect.

At the same time, this allowed factories in the states to abandon the communities they'd always been in in favor of exploiting cheap labor south of the border, too. Shoe makers, paper makers, dozens of varieties of manufacturing, etc. I lived in Maine which was particularly decimated by the sudden hemorrhaging of job positions. Old Town, for example, saw its property taxes, rents, etc, skyrocket when the local mill shut down since the mill had been a major player in the town's tax base. Without the jobs that were also there, however, the abandoned citizens couldn't afford the suddenly jacked up tax rates, and so were forced to move away, thus worsening the tax burden on those who couldn't afford to move, et cetera.

Oddly, the mill was not in any financial trouble at all ~until~ NAFTA. When their competitors operated on the same playing field they did, they were doing fine... but when free trade allowed the least honest of their competitors to exploit easily abusable workers, they either had to do it too or be put out of business.

The free trade agreement just makes it EASY to screw over their workers in the name of making a bigger buck than they already were. Worse, they got tax benefits TO DO IT. They got tax-payer paid assistance to shut down, move, and shack back up in Mexico. We paid them to abandoned us even as our tax costs went up as a result. And all the while, the newly employed workers south of the border are not being paid significantly more (if at all) than they were before this all happened... why? Because the vast droves of unemployed ensure there's always people they can suck up when they begin to fire the ones they did hire whose expectations got a little too high.

God, I harp on... sorry. It's just not as simple as the above statement made it sound. The part I don't get is how these corporations expect anyone to be able to afford to buy their products if they keep kicking the worker when he's down like this.
 
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It's tough to be exact about a "best" way to organize/govern/sort humans.

It's like nailing jello to the wall.

Or herding cats.

Too many variables. Humans are weird and animalistic.
 
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Humans are weird and animalistic.


grin... animals don't cause the fuss that we do. It's sort of a combination of being inventive and never quite satisfied and clever and ALSO having latent animal desires that make us so... troublesome. If we survive, we'll evolve out of it eventually (or rather, evolve INTO the realities of civilization.) Being half-and-half is tricksy.
 
grin... animals don't cause the fuss that we do.

Oh sure they do. All sorts of organisms on this planet. Causing loads of "fuss".

It's sort of a combination of being inventive and never quite satisfied and clever and ALSO having latent animal desires that make us so... troublesome. If we survive, we'll evolve out of it eventually (or rather, evolve INTO the realities of civilization.) Being half-and-half is tricksy.

Meh. I don't buy the theory that humans are superior to other life forms. We're parasitic...like viruses that accidently kill their host.
 
Oh sure they do. All sorts of organisms on this planet. Causing loads of "fuss".



Meh. I don't buy the theory that humans are superior to other life forms. We're parasitic...like viruses that accidently kill their host.

Didn't suggest underwise in either case... the problem is, while we may be no better or no worse than any other lifeform here, what we do has a lot more effect. We are the first identifiable biogenic extinction-level-event in the fossil record as yet, the 5th most deadly, and rapidly moving uphill in that regard. We are many, we consume unprecedented amounts of resources, and change the climate at a far faster rate than even trees and algae blooms do.

We are very 'powerful,' is the point, but because we are only halfway between civilized and feral, we have the power to do great harm but not yet the wisdom to restrain ourselves (en masse) from doing so.
 
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Didn't suggest underwise in either case... the problem is, while we may be no better or no worse than any other lifeform here, what we do has a lot more effect. We are the first identifiable biogenic extinction-level-event in the fossil record as yet, the 5th most deadly, and rapidly moving uphill in that regard. We are many, we consume unprecedented amounts of resources, and change the climate at a far faster rate than even trees and algae blooms do.

We are very 'powerful,' is the point, but because we are only halfway between civilized and feral, we have the power to do great harm but not yet the wisdom to restrain ourselves (en masse) from doing so.

And to tie it back into the topic, unregulated unrestrained lawless laissez-faire 'free' market 'me-me-me' capitalism encourages the above wisdomless abuses rather than a 'we-we-we' moderated cautious cooperation with said resources (not to mention, each other.)
 
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...the 5th most deadly, and rapidly moving uphill in that regard. We are many, we consume unprecedented amounts of resources, and change the climate at a far faster rate than even trees and algae blooms do.

We are very 'powerful,' is the point, but because we are only halfway between civilized and feral, we have the power to do great harm but not yet the wisdom to restrain ourselves (en masse) from doing so.

Like a virus?

They're so clever.
 
And to tie it back into the topic, unregulated unrestrained lawless laissez-faire 'free' market 'me-me-me' capitalism encourages the above wisdomless abuses rather than a 'we-we-we' moderated cautious cooperation with said resources (not to mention, each other.)

Capitalism is not "lawless", "unregulated" or "unrestrained".
 
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