INFJ: predominantly fours and/or fives? | INFJ Forum

INFJ: predominantly fours and/or fives?


Community Member
Jun 6, 2011
SX 4 or 5
I am pretty sure I'm an INFJ. I used to think I might be an INTJ. However, I cry all the time and can't stand science. I do like the beauty of mathematics, but far prefer art and poetry and dance and other humanities. I love mythology. I like Evolution with Kate Beckinsale. However, I also like to be alone a lot. And I am theoretical. I think a lot about social systems and why capitalism is preferable to state capitalism. I try to think about all kinds of things from a theoretical perspective. In the enneagram there is a distinction between four with a five wing, and five with a four wing. I think they can almost be collapsed into one another. I usually test as one of these. I don't think it's possible to be an INFJ and a five. This is because ultimately they don't like to be personal (the fives) and hide themselves, and they are not in touch with their feelings. I am generally right there crying or upset when someone says something that hurts my feelings. I cry instantly or yell. Or at least feel pulverized (I sometimes try not to engage which means that relationship is just plain over because I will hate them and feel paranoid about them -- but I sometimes say I forgive you right away which means I will never forgive you, please die).

Claudio Naranjo in his book Character and Typology suggests that INFJ and INFP are the close equivalents of four. He says INTJ and INTP are the closest MBTI equivalents for fives.

Character of course is an unproven set theory since it relies on self-reporting which is notoriously unscientific and by its very nature -- subjective.

However, I think that Naranjo is right. The notion that a hypersensitive INFJ or INFP can also be a nine (thick-skinned and apathetic) is just crazy. Also, an extremely erudite five who's into doing a math problem for a decade -- how can that person be emotionally sensitive to poetry?

The wing issues were introduced by Riso and Hudson among others, and I feel they have muddied the waters to an extent. Naranjo thought so too. Naturally each new theorist adds their personal touch. But in doing so they might have muddied the original waters to an extent that it makes the clearcut original boundaries uncertain and unclear. Naranjo said fives were anhedonic, while fours were masochistic. There is a clear differentiation there. Do you like the feeling of a bruise, or do you ignore it? I personally, love the feeling of a bruise. I love a skinned knee and to touch the bruised skin and to feel the enflamed nerve endings.

In short, I wish it was clear that an INFJ was also a four. I want translation to be one-to-one. Otherwise, it creates a huge fraying effect when I try to understand my character.

I see people in these threads coming in all types with all kinds of whacky combos such as an enneagram eight and an INFJ. That's just plain weird. Someone who is sensitive and yet bossy? How can you get Winona Ryder and Rosie O'Donnell into the same person? This is either inadequate typing or the system itself is so flexible as to be useless.

Now it may be possible for an INFJ to be a sensitive five. But JGirl says she cries when her boss yells at her. And that it's immediate. That's not what a five would do, is it? I cry too under pressure, and cry immediately. My boss yelled at me today. He didn't mean to yell but it freaked me out. I cried for twenty minutes. I had forgotten to get some paper in. Would a five cry like that? I thought fives were cerebral, and thought things through. I confess I am hard-hearted but it's only to hide the deep feelings that are always there plaguing me, and threatening to make me even more nonsensical and less acceptable as a male than I already am.

I mean men are supposed to be able to fix bayonets and charge the enemy on command! (Bayonets are still used in Afghanistan. Obama was never a soldier and didn't know this.)

Whatever. I think if you are an INFJ you should also necessarily be a four. But I often test as a five, and when I'm dreaming, I am kind of cut off frequently like a five. Last night the building I work in was blown apart in my dream (a house had fallen from Oz and hit it) and my room wasn't hit. I marveled over it and just found it quite lovely that I had survived. But I felt nothing. I just looked curiously at all the newly exposed pipes and liked to see the destruction (I couldn't see any actual carnage because at the time I was the only one in the building except one other person who was also still alive).
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Yeah, I agree with, and relate to, everything you said.

I've heard all kinds of insane combos too--like, "I'm an ENFP and a 5." LOL.

I'm probably an INFJ, and I'm either 4, 5, or 6. But none of them seem just right.

My wife is a clear INFP and a clear 4.

We're definitely a lot alike, but I'm kind of stuck between 4 and 5.

If I'm a 4, then I'm most likely 4w5.
OMG, I think you and your wife are the same as my wife and I. She's a clear INFP and a clear four, and I'm this other thing. Is that really the two of you in the photo? Do you fight well? My problem with my wife is we both fight too fiercely! She's the only person I've ever fought with so it's so intense! And she keeps upping the ante. It gets nuclear. Now I stand down because we have kids, and it's killed the passion. We can't get through how much we hate each other any longer to get to how much we love each other! It's a real problem. If I can't express what I feel, the feeling turns into murderous smouldering rage and then finally a cold contempt. It's horrifying! I hope you and your wife are doing better with that! Thank you for writing! I too think I could be a four or a five, or even sometimes a six or a three. I do occasionally test as a four with a three wing, if I am testing especially from the viewpoint of my twenties (I'm now 55, but people say I look 54).
PS What do you think is the best separator between four and five? I have never found anything that is definitive except Naranjo. I like his distinction between anhedonic and masochistic. However, the sexual five is yet another case, and if I'm a five, then I'm a SX five.

SPs are worrying about the economy, and will vote for Romney. SOCials are worried about Obama, and are voting for Obama, because they don't want to be racists. SXs aren't voting for one or the other but for weird reasons. I'm voting for Romney because I am envious of Obama's verbal pyrotechnics and want to eclipse him. I want someone with regular verbal skills, who will bumble and fumble here and there to make me feel better.

I rather like Biden.

I'm envious of Ryan's tight brain. I like Romney. He seems congenial but not too gifted. Obama is a gifted word slinger so I hope he's voted out. I'm a bit like a Siamese fighting fish when I am confronted with a verbal dazzler. I admit he was a bit boring in the debates and I started to like him a little better.
I test as INFJ pretty consistently.
I'm sensitive enough to engage you and talk to you. I won't baby you. And not much for making excuses. I think we should live with honor. I understand adversity. I understand having to grow, learn and overcome. I'm amazingly patient. But very intolerant of people that are disrespectful. And I test as a 5.
But that was one test I took twice and it was an Internet thing, so I don't know how confident I should be about the results
I don't even know anymore. I score as a nutter, perhaps.
These online tests give me 8 and 5, then 1 comes as the second. Personality is multilayered and while these tests can give you neat sketches and outlines, they can't give you all the colors. That's why there might be unusual(?) combos, imo.
You are an INFJ and not an INTJ because you are emotional and you don't like science -- this made me laugh. lol.

Do you mind me asking how old you are?

Plenty of INFJs like science. Plenty of them thrive in it. And I imagine INTJs can be emotional, too.
I love physics. Quantum, theoretical, particle. I can't say I have a visceral sense of all I read, but I try to understand and it fascinates me.

I'm a software programmer guy. Computers.

I think all that makes me sciencie.
I love physics. Quantum, theoretical, particle. I can't say I have a visceral sense of all I read, but I try to understand and it fascinates me.

I'm a software programmer guy. Computers.

I think all that makes me sciencie.

Good example!
(I still didn't get the notification. if I ever do not respond to one of your posts, and you'd like a response, please let me know by message I guess... because for some reason the system does not notify me of these posts. Bizarre!)
I am a 2.

But I am probably an ISFJ (as my "default" setting) who also can use the "N"....I am a hybrid but I do think "S" is dominant.
I heard somewhere that INFJs typically fall in the 9,1,and 4 categories, though I think IxFPs are more likely to fall in the 4 category than INFJs.
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I'm an INFJ and I absolutely love science. I majored in Biology and love learning about ecology, evolution(esp. primate evolution), and astronomy. I also love psychology, social sciences, and humanities. However, my love for science usually ends where quantum physics usually begins. Don't get me wrong I can understand some of the concepts, but it is quite tedious for me to try; same with calculus. I have other things to do, lol. I now work in a lab at a hospital and get to help people in variable kinds of ways. That makes me feel good. It gives me a much bigger purpose than just doing research, which would probable kill me slowly from the inside out. The point is though is that INFJs and science aren't mutually exclusive and many are quite good at it.

Now as to the Enneagram: I've tested 9w1, 9w8, 6w5, and a couple different ones, but never 4 or 5, so the verdict is still out on that one. I don't feel that any of those necessarily conflict with being and INFJ.
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Well, I never said you couldn't DO science as an INFJ. Generally speaking you can do anything but the weight would be toward values rather than toward thinking, which is the basis of the F versus the T. Myers did say it was easier for the F to become more like a T than for the T to become more like an F. And her own father was a scientist and an INFP. But there is a propensity toward. Otherwise, we might as well not bother typing but just everyone is all the different letter combinations.

The various systems are not well understood and there is too much slippage in my view in terms of the designations. Every MBTI practitioner has different working definitions and every enneagram practitioner does too. Even with the top enneagram thinkers I've been typed as a DEFINITE four by Clarence Thomsen, as a definite five by Elizabeth Wagele, as a six by David Fauvre, as a nine by Mary Bast, as a probable four by a heavyweight in Philadelphia (name forgotten) and so on. It's almost absurd.

Many of these same practitioners when pushed admit that they themselves are not 100% certain of their numbers.

And yet the rule is that unless you're certain of your number you can't begin to do any of what Gurdjieff called the Work.

As for my age (I was asked by Oceanbreeze), I am five years old.
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I'm an unhealthy Type 1. So I seem like the worst kind of 4 right now.
Whatever. I think if you are an INFJ you should also necessarily be a four.

Hm. I am not so sure I agree with that...

I've known a few INFJs who have tested as 1s.
1w2 at that not 1w9.

I myself am a 1w2.

I would say that INFPs are usually fours but it's not entirely uncommon to find
a nine or a one. Occasionally a five if you're an INFP with a well developed T.
You can be almost any Enneagram with any MBTI, but there are combinations that are extremely rare (rare enough to reconsider type if it doesn't match).

I recommend viewing this chart. It has some interesting matches. Original authors are Renee Baron and Elizabeth Wagele from their book, The Enneagram Made Easy.

Below is a colorized version of their chart. As you can see, multiple MBTI types can be inserted in areas you wouldn't expect. It doesn't mean you can't be a 7 and an INFJ; it just means it's extremely rare. If you can ask what motivates you, you can correlate MBTI and Enneagram.



Note: Yeah, you have to click on it to see it. Never could figure out how to make images bigger on this newerfangled system. :p
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Enneagrams are about motivations, needs, fears whereas CF is about how you process information. MBTI is a bit of a muddling of JCF because Meyer's-Briggs started talking about behaviour when Jung himself merely used his own theory as a predictive tool of most preferred and likely possible behavioural outcomes.

You can't rely on MBTI or Enneagrams alone -- or just one of these systems for a complete self-analysis. Kinda have to dig deep into all the systems to figure out the dividing line between a simple thought process and preferred evaluation system and motivations.

Any Enneagram and MBTI combination is possible ... some more likely than others ... but don't give in to the temptation to type yourself based on correlations that are largely unproven and based on conjecture and assumptions.
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Mia Kulpah offers a good chart by Wagele and Baron. The problem is where did they find these correlations? Since all of these are based on self-reporting we may have problems with their objectivity. That said, there is still some interesting data to mine. One is that the six group in the enneagram is reported to be in every possible MBTI grouping. On the other hand, the four is not represented in eight MBTI groups, indicating a tighter correlation.

Darkly Detached also puts forth an argument that seems to derail the entire procedure of typological investigation by throwing doubt on the muddled categories and the muddled intentions of the organizers of the two systems. I think it's quite tempting to put yourself into one of the slots and to arrive at a false designation. When I have visited the INTP or the INTJ boards they attack on the smallest pretext simply because it is said in their typological description that that's what they do. Here, people are more sensitive, but is that because they have been told that they are? I find these things quite problematic.

It's easy to see a thread in the forest of personality that seems to fit. This could be the well-known Forer Effect at work. We will never know.

There are times when we shift over, and it is perhaps a sense of what we're up to lately that makes us think of ourselves in certain ways. I was a fairly normal kid -- playing baseball, skipping school with fake sore throats, and so on. An excellent student, but it was because my parents were both professors. Would I have been such a student without that input and a house lined with books? How much do parents and siblings determine who we are, and how much is it a matter of DNA or spirit? All these things are not known and will probably never be known.

Still, even in 700 BC, Herakleitos wrote, "Character is fate."

What did he mean by this exactly? It's in a sentence in a manuscript made of fragments. What then is character? What then is fate? What does is mean in this context? How much slippage is there?

Is there a one-to-one correspondence.

There is another table in another Baron book that is quite different from the one presented here. These maps are faulty. That said, I don't think that Darkly Detached can be a 4/3 and an ENTP. It isn't plausible. I'm sorry. But character is either harmonious and stable or it isn't a character. This is like saying that someone is a morose funster, or a person who is interested in having all kinds of fun, who never is any fun, or not much. Something is wrong.

the MBTI and the Enneagram either point to something in character, or they do not. We must try harder to be sensible.
Another problem is the context of what type we are at what specific point in time. I had a dream the other night that the building I work in was intact when I looked out the window and up in the sky was a house coming down. It looked like the house in the Wizard of Oz. When it hit my building it was largely destroyed except the small point of the 7th floor on which I was standing. I had seen a documentary about the Oklahoma City bombing and the devastation there which was not total. One half of some offices was destroyed while people on the other side of a room were relatively unscathed. In the dream I was very calm, and almost amused at the fact that I had survived. It was a five dream. But in life I am sometimes far less sanguine.

Will the real me please stand up?

There is an assumption in the enneagram that we are always one thing. Is this really true?

In the MBTI the metaphor of handedness is offered, but then there is a slyboots metaphor creeping down the hallway which says that we can shift from one office to another over the decades. Well, does handedness change? No, it does not.

So which is right?

I've always been somewhat imaginative and bright and am a somewhat witty writer and comparisons come easily to mind. I always had this talent. For four centuries there have been good writers on my mother's side of the family. Some were pastors, some were poets, some were teachers, some were farmers, some were columnists. The other side is unknown more or less. Is this trait definitive? Some of the people who've typed me as a four did so on the basis of my writing. They say that fives cannot write so swiftly or easily and it's more of a torture to them. Writing to me is painless and I type a hundred words a minute. But is this an acquired trait or something necessary to my character or something in which I was raised, or what?

Noone really knows these things. I think that under torture the originators of the system would allow that they were trying to turn guess work into a science. It's a bit phrenological. However, I haven't abandoned it. With each post of dubious ness, I infer that I am still invested.

I just wish the whole system would make better sense. It especially drives me crazy when apparently smart people start muddying even what clarity is there by showing up with three numbers and four four-letter combinations.

If you are "darkly detached" would this have been throughout life, and to all people, that you would appear to be so?

That sounds a lot like 5 with a four wing to me. Detached, darkly. Darkly detached on the other hand might be four with a five. Depending on which trait was the central one, and which one was the flying buttress. I would say my own traits might be summed up as "darkly curious." But I hide the darkly often. Darkly doesn't get you raises, and I like raises. I hide my violent side, or the ruthless side, or the totally detached side. But when buildings blow to smithereens in my dreams, why does it have any effect on me?

But where are we between Poe, say, and the Unabomber? We could say that both were dark and also, detached. But one is considered an American great, and the other a sort of ingenious imbecile. Do we really know enough about either to make any firm conclusions?

If we did know something we would be unable to communicate it, and if we could communicate it, no one would understand.
Well, I don't think I've ever known any INFJs in person, but on every forum I've been to, it does seem that most are 4s. Once in a while I'll see some 1s and 5s, and to a lesser extent 9s (I've only seen a few.), but not really any other enneagram type.