INFJ 6w5 against ESTJ 6w7

Trifoilum

Trifoilum

find wisdom, build hope.
MBTI
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Yay, just had another clash against my father. \o/ (Hint: My post in the ESTJ forum, works very well if you want your ESTJ to be crazily frustrated with you)

Basically the problem is, my life (and lifestyle) is concerning him / turning him anxious.

Aside from showing proofs (him being Te dom..it's going to be a long battle. Mine being Ni dom, also uphill.). How do I convince / sooth him otherwise? Are no comfort words usable when dealing against an ESTJ?

Like, I understand where he's coming, why he's scared, and his feeling of anxiety and mistrust (being a 6 myself) but I don't know HOW to assure him.

I want to put the least damage because while I've come to an understanding about him and his way of thinking (thus reducing the emotional damage from his attacks that are, frankly speaking, HARSH at first), he hasn't (and I doubt he will) and it'll drain him more if I apply direct confrontational words again and again.

All things aside, he's still my father. :|

Thanks everyone. :)
 
I would think it would depend on if he just needs to feel reasurred that you hear his concerns or if you genuinely expects you to change. The first is easy, try listening without getting all emotional. Sometimes people just want to be heard. Just because someone you love is saying things to you doesn't mean that you have to take their words into your heart. Most times people say things because they care, not because they intend to hurt you, even though that is what happens. Many times the older generation is very in tune with "proper" behavior and they believe it is important to model such behavior. In my culture, when an elder displays displeasure, you listen. Not that you change, but that you respect them enough to model behavior in their presence. It is part of being a member of a group/tribe that you do things for others. If your father wants you to change--you will still have to listen but I would practice letting him know you understand he is concerned but you are who you are.
 
arbygil said:
Well, if it's not too personal...what was the clash about?
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First is language school choice (too expensive! study here!) then college cost (too much!), then college choice (you're wrong!) then my entire lifestyle (you don't learn ANYTHING!) THEN my personality (you're always like this, never listened to anyone's words and always stuck with your head up in the cloud!).
On one hand, it's not really surprising nor hard to understand, nor completely outrageous from his perspective. And his words does have merit, so I'm not disagreeing with him. On the other hand, that's 4 times I became confrontative with him during this talk. Bad me bad me!

ETA: I did poke a sore spot; I commented about his way of caring for his children in a snippy tone. I guess it's part of the reason why the second part of the fight happened.

Sonyab said:
I would think it would depend on if he just needs to feel reasurred that you hear his concerns or if you genuinely expects you to change. The first is easy, try listening without getting all emotional. Sometimes people just want to be heard. Just because someone you love is saying things to you doesn't mean that you have to take their words into your heart. Most times people say things because they care, not because they intend to hurt you, even though that is what happens. Many times the older generation is very in tune with "proper" behavior and they believe it is important to model such behavior. In my culture, when an elder displays displeasure, you listen. Not that you change, but that you respect them enough to model behavior in their presence. It is part of being a member of a group/tribe that you do things for others. If your father wants you to change--you will still have to listen but I would practice letting him know you understand he is concerned but you are who you are.
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I think it's a mixture of both. I find it hard to assure him I listen because while I do, I also keep sticking in my own behavior and thus, in his eyes, not listening. I would think in his eyes listening = following because he is RIGHT. But that's just me.

Me a year ago would be all heartache and pain..I believe I made one topic or two about it...but I now understand a little about his way of thinking and his method of speaking to not to be offended too much. Probably now I'm able to stand up a little against him. (and he probably knows.)


But to proactively console and assert my view... And the bolded one... well, the path still stands. I don't know how to say it without being confronting. Ugh. My culture is very patriarchal and vertical, thus it's a very volatile thing to say without being rebelling.

ultrauber said:
ESTJs? All I can advise is to RUN. In my experience they just cannot lose.
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LOL.
Sonyab said:
Come on now. Fight to the Death before you RUN!!!

Kidding Tri... You can't run from family..
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Yeah, as Sonya said; I can't run. Economically, because my funding does depends on him. But emotionally... I've tried running away for 18 years. It doesn't taste good.

I will distance myself and try my best to live by myself (HAH); but I will do it with my relationship intact.
 
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Go inside of his hopechest, burn his rule book. Every estj has one. After that he will crumble to pieces, assume command and have him pay for your school.


On an honest side of this post:

Make sure when you confront him you look him in the eyes, make sure your shoulders are lowered just a tad (but not drooping) and calmly explain to him yourside of the story. Make sure you notate everytime he was there for you and helped you out, and say you love him so much for all of that, and how it's taught you to be the person you are today. Then, explain that you do want to go where you want, but not to rebel, but because you want to put to use all the resources he's worked so hard to provide for you to use.

XSXJs care a lot about the history of the relationship, they want all the time they stuck out for you to be honored. They want to be respected as individuals, and members of the community. They want to be loved and accepted, to have their own accomplishments valued even if they don't admit it, but moreso, they want to be able to be proud of their "creation." But it would be wise to not say directly "and when I graduate you can tell your friends how well I did" no matter how much meaning/sincerity is behind those words, they XSTJ will not appreciate it. Find a less direct way to say it. I hope I helped.


Experienced with an ISTJ brother, and ISTJ best friend.
 
saru said:
Go inside of his hopechest, burn his rule book. Every estj has one. After that he will crumble to pieces, assume command and have him pay for your school.


On an honest side of this post:

Make sure when you confront him you look him in the eyes, make sure your shoulders are lowered just a tad (but not drooping) and calmly explain to him yourside of the story. Make sure you notate everytime he was there for you and helped you out, and say you love him so much for all of that, and how it's taught you to be the person you are today. Then, explain that you do want to go where you want, but not to rebel, but because you want to put to use all the resources he's worked so hard to provide for you to use.

XSXJs care a lot about the history of the relationship, they want all the time they stuck out for you to be honored. They want to be respected as individuals, and members of the community. They want to be loved and accepted, to have their own accomplishments valued even if they don't admit it, but moreso, they want to be able to be proud of their "creation." But it would be wise to not say directly "and when I graduate you can tell your friends how well I did" no matter how much meaning/sincerity is behind those words, they XSTJ will not appreciate it. Find a less direct way to say it. I hope I helped.


Experienced with an ISTJ brother, and ISTJ best friend.
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ROFL. Dang, the first would be an interesting adventure.

The second...from what I'd listened, he doesn't seem to be proud with me (he even said he's ashamed). I don't think claiming the bolded part will make him happy? But I think I get your meaning, and the last sentence of that paragraph is good.

And thanks for more dissection about ESTJ. It's an interesting perspective, and it seems to be valid.
 
He's ashamed because his vision of who he wants you to be hasn't squared with reality. Its up to you (unfortunately) to prove him wrong. Not like "your wrong because . . ." but to show him that even if the idealism hasn't hit the spot directly, it's not missed its mark.
 
ESTJs want you to be like them. So give him a little. Do one thing he wants, and then take what you want. STJs like balance like that.
 
Compromise with ESTJ's seems to be pretty much impossible in my experience. They require absolute surrender or they get nervous and jumpy and crazy.

Run. Seriously, INFJ's are not built to deal with ESTJ's. Get away from him.
 
saru said:
He's ashamed because his vision of who he wants you to be hasn't squared with reality. Its up to you (unfortunately) to prove him wrong. Not like "your wrong because . . ." but to show him that even if the idealism hasn't hit the spot directly, it's not missed its mark.
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ultrauber said:
ESTJs want you to be like them. So give him a little. Do one thing he wants, and then take what you want. STJs like balance like that.
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Yeaaah....STJ wants concrete proof. That I understand *sigh*
After a good night's sleep and a personal pep talk with myself, I do find out that I'm one step closer towards my goal. *laughs*

Chessie said:
Compromise with ESTJ's seems to be pretty much impossible in my experience. They require absolute surrender or they get nervous and jumpy and crazy.

Run. Seriously, INFJ's are not built to deal with ESTJ's. Get away from him.
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Yeah, it does seems to look that way. Thanks for the friendly warning :). However again, I can't. Aside from the factor I mentioned above...there are two, no; three things:
a) He's family. And I still got other bombs to drop ('oh hi dad, thanks for waiting for so long as per why I'm not having a girlfriend or planning to marry, but I think I won't marry nor have babies, because I like men and therefore in your eyes must have been sissy. You've got to tell this to our aunts and uncles, or hide the shame. Do I make you proud?');
b) I can't give up or run now. If I give up and run now (strategic retreat; sure, but I won't stop the fight), the later bombs will devastate me AND him more.
c) I'd like to prove MBTI -- and myself -- wrong in that 'INFJs can't reason with ESTJ'...... I know, egoistical reasons there.
 
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Chessie said:
Compromise with ESTJ's seems to be pretty much impossible in my experience. They require absolute surrender or they get nervous and jumpy and crazy.

Run. Seriously, INFJ's are not built to deal with ESTJ's. Get away from him.
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As much as I hate to say this its pretty true. Honestly instead of running just live your life the way you feel you must. He won't like it but ESTJs don't like anything they don't control or put on the table. I've found them to be nearly impossible to deal with less they already agree with you or your using their suggestions. I've found its better to accept that they may never respect you and move on.


Yeah, it does seems to look that way. Thanks for the friendly warning :). However again, I can't. Aside from the factor I mentioned above...there are two, no; three things:
a) He's family. And I still got other bombs to drop ('oh hi dad, thanks for waiting for so long as per why I'm not having a girlfriend or planning to marry, but I think I won't marry nor have babies, because I like men and therefore in your eyes must have been sissy. You've got to tell this to our aunts and uncles, or hide the shame. Do I make you proud?');
b) I can't give up or run now. If I give up and run now (strategic retreat; sure, but I won't stop the fight), the later bombs will devastate me AND him more.
c) I'd like to prove MBTI -- and myself -- wrong in that 'INFJs can't reason with ESTJ'...... I know, egoistical reasons there.
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This is something I've taken a long time to understand and I'm still working on it. Just because he is family doesn't mean he can run your life. My mom (ESTJ) would love to help me plain my life and tell where to go. But, ITS MY LIFE NOT HE'R'S! Granted the ESTJ won't like that but tough. You have to accept that your different and you will most likely never be what you father wants of you this is not a bad thing. Its up to your father to grow and be willing to accept you not the other way around. Also its not your fathers business who you love.

Parents are important, but they can't and shouldn't run your life and smother you. All of which is ESTJ excel at. You need to distance your self from you father. It hurts but there is not much else you can do and still maintain a relationship. As I don't advocate simply giving into their demands. As its your life.

Do you really want to be someone your not? Just to make a parent happy?
 
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Trifoilum said:
...And I still got other bombs to drop ('oh hi dad, thanks for waiting for so long as per why I'm not having a girlfriend or planning to marry, but I think I won't marry nor have babies, because I like men and therefore in your eyes must have been sissy. You've got to tell this to our aunts and uncles, or hide the shame. Do I make you proud?')...
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If you keep telling yourself this is going to go over badly [MENTION=2172]Trifoilum[/MENTION], it will. You're going to need a little more confidence if you want to deal with him. You already mentioned that he doesn't like "sissy" people, so I bet if you put your foot down and were more assertive, you'd gain respect in the long run.
 
Blind Bandit said:
As much as I hate to say this its pretty true. Honestly instead of running just live your life the way you feel you must. He won't like it but ESTJs don't like anything they don't control or put on the table. I've found them to be nearly impossible to deal with less they already agree with you or your using their suggestions. I've found its better to accept that they may never respect you and move on.


This is something I've taken a long time to understand and I'm still working on it. Just because he is family doesn't mean he can run your life. My mom (ESTJ) would love to help me plain my life and tell where to go. But, ITS MY LIFE NOT HE'R'S! Granted the ESTJ won't like that but tough. You have to accept that your different and you will most likely never be what you father wants of you this is not a bad thing. Its up to your father to grow and be willing to accept you not the other way around. Also its not your fathers business who you love.

Parents are important, but they can't and shouldn't run your life and smother you. All of which is ESTJ excel at. You need to distance your self from you father. It hurts but there is not much else you can do and still maintain a relationship. As I don't advocate simply giving into their demands. As its your life.

Do you really want to be someone your not? Just to make a parent happy?
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You are in a tough place. It sounds like you are financially dependent on your father. He has the right to place his money in service of whatever he wants. If he doesn't want to put it in service of your goals, he has that right. I don't know if there is any way to convince him that your goals are worth his investment. I suppose you can consider what would be meaningful and important to him and see if you can show him where there is intersection between what he values and what you value. It may have impact and it's worth a try.

Ultimately though, I agree with what BB and others here have said. It's your life. You're going to have to live it as yourself. If your father can't support that, you will have to figure out a way to support yourself.
 
Do you really want to be someone your not? Just to make a parent happy?
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Don't get me wrong; all I want to do is to make him happy -- my way. :| Not his way. (MEH, if I were to bent down and give up, how comfortable would my life be...but no.)

I bet if you put your foot down and were more assertive, you'd gain respect in the long run.
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Assertive...Hmm. interesting

You are in a tough place. It sounds like you are financially dependent on your father. He has the right to place his money in service of whatever he wants. If he doesn't want to put it in service of your goals, he has that right. I don't know if there is any way to convince him that your goals are worth his investment. I suppose you can consider what would be meaningful and important to him and see if you can show him where there is intersection between what he values and what you value. It may have impact and it's worth a try.
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*nods* Admittedly some part of me still feels like it's unfair, but then again, it is his right.

Interesting insights so far, everyone; thanks. :)
 
I've never understood why "family" is so important to people. Simply because another homosapien shares a partial amount of spirals in your blood, doesn't make them better then anyone else.

Btw, if you want you can totally pay for my plane ticket and i can come over there and kidnapp him and drop him off in gaycity California. After he shrivels up from the gaytrocities all around him, maybe he'll be more accepting :)

or i could just fax you my hunting crossbow, and you can just shoot him.
 
saru said:
I've never understood why "family" is so important to people. Simply because another homosapien shares a partial amount of spirals in your blood, doesn't make them better then anyone else.

Btw, if you want you can totally pay for my plane ticket and i can come over there and kidnapp him and drop him off in gaycity California. After he shrivels up from the gaytrocities all around him, maybe he'll be more accepting :)

or i could just fax you my hunting crossbow, and you can just shoot him.
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Not that I don't believe you / disagreeing with you, but try telling that here. *sips tea*

oh, that is a longer battle I'm waging, dear. ;] don't worry. (but thanks for worrying though)
 
[MENTION=2172]Trifoilum[/MENTION]
You have two choices:
1) Bide your time in your father's home until you can afford to move out or,
2) Move out now and take full responsibility for your life.
Whichever you choose show him respect and patience. He may very well come to accept your choices when he can see with his own eyes that they do work.

@saru
Family is very important to me because they've always been there despite disagreements. They are loyal to me and I to them. I have only found that twice outside of family. My family shares my joy and sorrow. I wish everyone had a close knit family. They are my first blessing on this earth.
 
saru said:
He's ashamed because his vision of who he wants you to be hasn't squared with reality.
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ultrauber said:
ESTJs want you to be like them.
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Chessie said:
Compromise with ESTJ's seems to be pretty much impossible in my experience. They require absolute surrender or they get nervous and jumpy and crazy.
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le sigh. :m142:

It just doesn't work. Nothing does. I've been nice and cooperative. I've been aggressive and confrontational. I've given him the absolute cold shoulder. Tried using reason. He just closes off everything that defies his paradigm, it's as good as not existing at all.

ultrauber said:
In my experience they just cannot lose.
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I hate to be negative, but you're just not going to accomplish anything with him. If he were younger, less experienced or less self confident, maybe...but in their middle to old age, they are just a boulder than won't budge.
 
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