IMO women have some very very big issues

[muir]

People are responsible for their own actions. Stop blaming everything else. This man made the personal decision to do this. Society isn't promoting for people to abduct strangers and if it were a biological drive than there would be many more abductions than there are.

Why do you always have to twist what i'm saying?

Is it delibertae or do you just missunderstand every single time?

Our environment has a formative effect on us

If there are problems in our society it is worth looking at the environment because a brutalising environment creates brutes

This does not mean the man should not be locked up if he is threat to society but it means if we don't want more people like him then its in our interest to understand why they are being produced

 

[muir]

The reality is that even if its a biological drive there's nothing what so ever to suggest its alright to act on it, people regulate their biological drives all the time and conform to social perogatives or the dictates of conscience.

I've seen some strange things posted by Muir before now but making excuses for abduction? That's a new low right there.

Edit: In addition if the environment is such a powerful deterministic force the question to ask would not be how a minority act out as psychopaths or sociopaths but why the majority refrain from doing so.

I didn't make any excuse for abduction...don't try and twist my words

I'm saying that evenhorizens comment is not accurate

There are factors behind human behaviour

 

[muir]

You dont believe in free will what so ever?

This sounds like a lot of excuses to me. Diminished responsibility is still responsibility.

Clearly society needs protection from people like that

There are of ocurse levels of responsibility

But if you are looking fromm the perspective of an observor asking why things are happening then you can begin to look at wider environmental factors

 

[Lark]

Clearly society needs protection from people like that

There are of ocurse levels of responsibility

But if you are looking fromm the perspective of an observor asking why things are happening then you can begin to look at wider environmental factors

You dont believe in free will what so ever?

This sounds like a lot of excuses to me. Diminished responsibility is still responsibility.

 

[Lark]

I didn't make any excuse for abduction...don't try and twist my words

I'm saying that evenhorizens comment is not accurate

There are factors behind human behaviour

You dont believe in free will what so ever?

This sounds like a lot of excuses to me. Diminished responsibility is still responsibility.

 

[Lark]

Why do you always have to twist what i'm saying?

Is it delibertae or do you just missunderstand every single time?

Our environment has a formative effect on us

If there are problems in our society it is worth looking at the environment because a brutalising environment creates brutes

This does not mean the man should not be locked up if he is threat to society but it means if we don't want more people like him then its in our interest to understand why they are being produced

And yet the brutes you are talking about the minority and the majority, in the same environment, subject to the same formative influences, are not brutes.

How about that?

 

[Lark]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-short...age&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

Because people should read the same things as me.

 

[La Sagna]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-short...age&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

Because people should read the same things as me.

good article

 

[La Sagna]

Why do you always have to twist what i'm saying?

Is it delibertae or do you just missunderstand every single time?

Our environment has a formative effect on us

If there are problems in our society it is worth looking at the environment because a brutalising environment creates brutes

This does not mean the man should not be locked up if he is threat to society but it means if we don't want more people like him then its in our interest to understand why they are being produced

I'm not twisting your words I'm just reacting to what I read. Your gut reaction seems to be that men who do bad things are poor victims who can't help themselves because of a combination of mind control and biology. I don't buy it. Yes, there is way too much negative influence from culture and media and yes there are underlying biological urges but individuals still have free will and choose to believe what they want and choose their actions. The great majority of people know what is right and wrong and control any impulses they may have to do something that would harm another human being. I do believe in identifying and trying to change underlying issues that cause some people to do bad things but your tendency to look at the 'big picture' seems to make you blind to personal experiences and personal responsibility and those are also very important and in my opinion the real key to effective change.

Edit: Even psychopaths know what is right and wrong, they just can't have affective empathy but they can still have cognitive empathy. They can still choose to do the right thing but they have to rationally believe that it is the right thing to do as you will not be able to use emotions to convince them to do or not do something.

 

[Lark]

I'm not twisting your words I'm just reacting to what I read. Your gut reaction always seems to be that men who do bad things are just poor victims who can't help themselves because of a combination of mind control and biology. I don't buy it. Yes, there is way too much negative influence from culture and media and yes there are underlying biological urges but individuals still have free will and choose to believe what they want and choose their actions. The great majority of people know what is right and wrong and control any impulses they may have to do something that would harm another human being. I do believe in identifying and trying to change underlying issues that cause some people to do bad things but your tendency to look at the 'big picture' seems to make you blind to personal experiences and personal responsibility and those are also very important and in my opinion the real key to effective change.

The reality is that I've never, ever met anyone who was able to commit a crime who did not have prepared a story to tell themselves, and to tell others, as to why they didnt really have a choice other than to commit the crime, that the victim of the crime was not really a victim or could not be a victim or deserved to be a victim and that, when you think about it, its really the who are the victim and that they would do nothing different in future in the exact same set of circumstances.

You could say why does this matter, everyone engages in rationalisations for their behaviour, usually after the fact and definitely after affect and emotion have interceeded first of all.

You could also say that all that, the tendency to rationalise criminal behaviour, the tendency to give into affect and emotion drive judgements, is all a consequence of environment or being a product "of the system".

Well the problem is that if you do and for as long as you do then there is nothing surer then the people who are criminal and choosing to be criminal and definitely not thinking about ways not to be criminal are going to seize upon that very thinking. They will be very, very ready to reach the conclusion that they are really blameless for their own actions and its really all down to vagaries about "society" or "environment".

What is important to a real zero tolerance of crime, which is the only thing likely to eliminate crime, is a change in social attitudes, so that people choosing criminal behaviour can not easily invent stories to tell themselves or others and when they do tell others that they get no sympathetic ear or agreement from whoever it is they have choosen to share their hard luck story with. Like I say diminished responsibility is STILL responsibility.

Even a towering intellect such as Immanuel Kant admitted we probably are all subject to determinism but we need to act as though we have free will and base our thinking upon that in order for individuals and societies to function.

 

[muir]

And yet the brutes you are talking about the minority and the majority, in the same environment, subject to the same formative influences, are not brutes.

How about that?

I don't quite follow, can you explain further what you mean?

 

[muir]

I'm not twisting your words I'm just reacting to what I read. Your gut reaction seems to be that men who do bad things are poor victims who can't help themselves because of a combination of mind control and biology. I don't buy it. Yes, there is way too much negative influence from culture and media and yes there are underlying biological urges but individuals still have free will and choose to believe what they want and choose their actions. The great majority of people know what is right and wrong and control any impulses they may have to do something that would harm another human being. I do believe in identifying and trying to change underlying issues that cause some people to do bad things but your tendency to look at the 'big picture' seems to make you blind to personal experiences and personal responsibility and those are also very important and in my opinion the real key to effective change.

Edit: Even psychopaths know what is right and wrong, they just can't have affective empathy but they can still have cognitive empathy. They can still choose to do the right thing but they have to rationally believe that it is the right thing to do as you will not be able to use emotions to convince them to do or not do something.

If you had read what i said i distinguished between hereditary psychopaths and ones created by their environment

I was reading a newspaper story about the banker who murdered two women in his flat/hotel recently in Hong Kong

I find it very disturbing that such an individual who would announce publically to people around him that he was a 'psychopath' managed to naivgate his way through cambridge university and then into a high up position in meryl lynch bank

If that's not bad enough he had mutliple girlfriends in the run upto the murders

My point is why are people giving these people the time of day?

There is something very wrong in our society when a sicko like that gets good job positions and girlfriends

I'm suggesting that people need to re-assess what we value

Does that sound unreasonable?

Concerning the guy in the OP video...he just violently abducted someone whihc is extremely fucked up behaviour so i'd say there is a high chance he is a psychopath

Apparently they form 1% of the population!!!!

So i don't think i'm wildy off the mark discussing this from that perspective

But i'm not making excuses for the guy or saying he is not to blame so don't missunderstand

The guy's dangerous and should be locked up. But when i look around me in our society i see psychopaths thriving and always doing well in attracting potential mates; for me that suggests something is very wrong in our society and in what our society values.

Does that make sense?

 

[Lark]

I don't quite follow, can you explain further what you mean?

I know you dont follow but its plain english.

If environment accounts for the actions of brutes then how come their neighbours, living in the same environment, do not display the same brutish traits? Why are the brutes the exception and not the norm if environment accounts for brutishness? Are the only individuals susceptible to deteriorating into brutes men? If it isnt so then why do women not present the same threat of brutishness to any brute seeking to be brutish towards them?

I think its clear enough, I dont know what age you are and I speculated before that you get most of your philosophy from pop-culture sources like Assasin's Creed, padded out with chomsky and obscure wikis with a liberal twist. There's nothing in the need of clarification on simple enough points like that which would change my opinion in that respect.

 

[Lark]

If you had read what i said i distinguished between hereditary psychopaths and ones created by their environment

I was reading a newspaper story about the banker who murdered two women in his flat/hotel recently in Hong Kong

I find it very disturbing that such an individual who would announce publically to people around him that he was a 'psychopath' managed to naivgate his way through cambridge university and then into a high up position in meryl lynch bank

If that's not bad enough he had mutliple girlfriends in the run upto the murders

My point is why are people giving these people the time of day?

There is something very wrong in our society when a sicko like that gets good job positions and girlfriends

I'm suggesting that people need to re-assess what we value

Does that sound unreasonable?

Concerning the guy in the OP video...he just violently abducted someone whihc is extremely fucked up behaviour so i'd say there is a high chance he is a psychopath

Apparently they form 1% of the population!!!!

So i don't think i'm wildy off the mark discussing this from that perspective

But i'm not making excuses for the guy or saying he is not to blame so don't missunderstand

The guy's dangerous and should be locked up. But when i look around me in our society i see psychopaths thriving and always doing well in attracting potential mates; for me that suggests something is very wrong in our society and in what our society values.

Does that make sense?

How do the psychopaths get the girls and you're single Muir huh?

Life isnt fair, I suppose.

 

[La Sagna]

If you had read what i said i distinguished between hereditary psychopaths and ones created by their environment

I was reading a newspaper story about the banker who murdered two women in his flat/hotel recently in Hong Kong

I find it very disturbing that such an individual who would announce publically to people around him that he was a 'psychopath' managed to naivgate his way through cambridge university and then into a high up position in meryl lynch bank

If that's not bad enough he had mutliple girlfriends in the run upto the murders

My point is why are people giving these people the time of day?

There is something very wrong in our society when a sicko like that gets good job positions and girlfriends

I'm suggesting that people need to re-assess what we value

Does that sound unreasonable?

Concerning the guy in the OP video...he just violently abducted someone whihc is extremely fucked up behaviour so i'd say there is a high chance he is a psychopath

Apparently they form 1% of the population!!!!

So i don't think i'm wildy off the mark discussing this from that perspective

But i'm not making excuses for the guy or saying he is not to blame so don't missunderstand

The guy's dangerous and should be locked up. But when i look around me in our society i see psychopaths thriving and always doing well in attracting potential mates; for me that suggests something is very wrong in our society and in what our society values.

Does that make sense?

First of all, there are many different definitions of a psychopath and no commonly agreed concept of what exactly constitutes a psychopath, but lets say that we use the idea of psychopaths who have no empathy and who manipulate people to get their own way, those who may often be found in high positions in society. What you have to realize is that these people are very smart and can be very charming and it is usually not obvious that they are a psychopath. They can pretend to have empathy and can treat people very well to get what they want. People can be taken in by someone who treats them very well and they do not realize that there may be hidden motives behind the actions of the individual. Most psychopaths wouldn't be going around telling people that they are psychopaths because that would lessen their chance of manipulating people. Nice women can be taken in by the charms of the psychopath to later regret it, or even to never realize what this person is capable of or has done without their knowledge, other women may not care that the person is a psychopath as long as they get what they want. The same in business, often corporations just want somebody who will make them the most money so they probably don't care that the person is a psychopath as long as they create them wealth. Sure it's all very twisted but I don't believe that this is a new phenomenon. Throughout history there have been people in positions of power who treated the lower classes as dispensable. They would use their intellect and lack of empathy to get further ahead in the world at the expense of people with less power.

 

[La Sagna]

The reality is that I've never, ever met anyone who was able to commit a crime who did not have prepared a story to tell themselves, and to tell others, as to why they didnt really have a choice other than to commit the crime, that the victim of the crime was not really a victim or could not be a victim or deserved to be a victim and that, when you think about it, its really the who are the victim and that they would do nothing different in future in the exact same set of circumstances.

You could say why does this matter, everyone engages in rationalisations for their behaviour, usually after the fact and definitely after affect and emotion have interceeded first of all.

You could also say that all that, the tendency to rationalise criminal behaviour, the tendency to give into affect and emotion drive judgements, is all a consequence of environment or being a product "of the system".

Well the problem is that if you do and for as long as you do then there is nothing surer then the people who are criminal and choosing to be criminal and definitely not thinking about ways not to be criminal are going to seize upon that very thinking. They will be very, very ready to reach the conclusion that they are really blameless for their own actions and its really all down to vagaries about "society" or "environment".

What is important to a real zero tolerance of crime, which is the only thing likely to eliminate crime, is a change in social attitudes, so that people choosing criminal behaviour can not easily invent stories to tell themselves or others and when they do tell others that they get no sympathetic ear or agreement from whoever it is they have choosen to share their hard luck story with. Like I say diminished responsibility is STILL responsibility.

Even a towering intellect such as Immanuel Kant admitted we probably are all subject to determinism but we need to act as though we have free will and base our thinking upon that in order for individuals and societies to function.

There is definitely a huge connection between rationalizing one's actions and crime, and this rationalization often comes from personal experiences that have led people to believe certain things or to excuse their behaviour because they have been victims of bad behaviour themselves. I believe the immediate environment and the personal experiences of an individual has more to do with people committing crimes than anything to do with the system. The system creates socio-economic conditions which can elevate the chance of crimes being committed but there are many people who come from poverty and difficult backgrounds who never commit a crime and many privileged people who commit crimes.

 

[muir]

I know you dont follow but its plain english.

If environment accounts for the actions of brutes then how come their neighbours, living in the same environment, do not display the same brutish traits? Why are the brutes the exception and not the norm if environment accounts for brutishness? Are the only individuals susceptible to deteriorating into brutes men? If it isnt so then why do women not present the same threat of brutishness to any brute seeking to be brutish towards them?

I think its clear enough, I dont know what age you are and I speculated before that you get most of your philosophy from pop-culture sources like Assasin's Creed, padded out with chomsky and obscure wikis with a liberal twist. There's nothing in the need of clarification on simple enough points like that which would change my opinion in that respect.

Thats a very defencive tone in your post

Try and remmeber your 3 steps to being a better person you posted above: http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-short...age&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

I don't play computer games and have no contact with 'assassins creed'

I didn't say that environment was everything

I believe that we know or rather feel innately that some things are wrong (call this natural law) and we must then act responsibly from that

But i think we can be affected by our environment and i think we can be swept along by others and i think we can be swayed by others and intoxicated by various things and i think we can be affected in general by outside agencies

Psychopaths are an interesting area though because they operate on a spectrum

But for someone to have abducted another human being unless there is some sort of hard to imagine reason for it they are likely to be high on the psychopathy scale

So....what causes psychopathy?

Well apparently exposure to heavy metals can have an effect and that would then classify as 'environment'

There is now the technology out there to control other peoples limbs remotely but what other outside agencies are affecting humanity?

Concerning women not being brutish i disagree i think women can be brutish but perhaps manifest their weaknesses differently to men; however they also cause damage in the world so i think trying to pin all the 'brutishness' in the world on men is not only innacurate (mental image of hilary clinton laughing with glee at the public killing of gaddaffi on TV) but dissingeuous

 

[muir]

How do the psychopaths get the girls and you're single Muir huh?

Life isnt fair, I suppose.

I've never had any trouble in that department actually...but nice attempt at a dig!

But i do think that society does glorify psychopathic behaviours yes and i do think this has repercussions for our society and i do think that both men AND women should take responsbility for who they support in whatever way

 

[muir]

First of all, there are many different definitions of a psychopath and no commonly agreed concept of what exactly constitutes a psychopath, but lets say that we use the idea of psychopaths who have no empathy and who manipulate people to get their own way, those who may often be found in high positions in society. What you have to realize is that these people are very smart and can be very charming and it is usually not obvious that they are a psychopath. They can pretend to have empathy and can treat people very well to get what they want. People can be taken in by someone who treats them very well and they do not realize that there may be hidden motives behind the actions of the individual. Most psychopaths wouldn't be going around telling people that they are psychopaths because that would lessen their chance of manipulating people. Nice women can be taken in by the charms of the psychopath to later regret it, or even to never realize what this person is capable of or has done without their knowledge, other women may not care that the person is a psychopath as long as they get what they want. The same in business, often corporations just want somebody who will make them the most money so they probably don't care that the person is a psychopath as long as they create them wealth. Sure it's all very twisted but I don't believe that this is a new phenomenon. Throughout history there have been people in positions of power who treated the lower classes as dispensable. They would use their intellect and lack of empathy to get further ahead in the world at the expense of people with less power.

There's a spectrum ranging from regular folks upto fullblown psychopaths

But there is an old saying: judge a tree by its fruit

I think we need to re-assess what we admire culturally in people

''behind every great fortune lies a great crime'' -Balzac

 

[Quiet]

I'm confused about the premise of this thread and how its evolved....but i'd like to add some of my own confusion to it.

I really like this quote by Einstein:
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

I dont believe the world is a dangerous place teeming with baddies. And i do not believe in evil. The world is complex, and it is beautiful, spectacular...mostly run by bees, birds, earthworms, microrganisms, animals, trees, flowers, plankton, fish, and maggots. The part of the world we see depends greatly on context and focus and intention. I acknowledge that there are a lot of ignorant fuckwits out there, but i believe that the issue and responsibility to create a world that we want to live in lies with us, not those fuckwits.

Imagine the world you want to live in, and then make it happen. If you want more compassion and understanding, be more compassionate and understanding. If you want more forgiveness and peace, be more forgiving and peaceful. If you want more creativity and abundance, be more creative and grateful. If you want more trust and safety, be willing to trust, and willing to help.

On the other hand, if you want more violence and fear, be distrustful, paranoid, afraid, imagine and prepare yourself for the worst, carry a weapon, learn to kill someone. If you a prepared to kill someone, and are living in a society where everyone is prepared to kill someone...dont be surprised when people get killed. Theres nothing random about that...its bloody obvious. If you are prepared for the worst, then dont be surprised if the worst happens. There is no peace and safety in constant vigilence and defence.
Our fears have a better chance of manifesting than many of our desires, because it is often easier to focus on what we are afraid of, than what we would like to see. Many people are afraid to invest time and energy into imagining and building a better world, because it involves letting go of the known and familiar and taking a chance...being prepared to look naive and stupid....getting hurt....trusting...having our trust broken....having to face and push past our fears....trying and trying again...making mistakes....failing...regrouping and going again.....believing in ourself, and believing in others....placing higher value on our ideals than our fears....placing more value on a good life well lived, than a mediocre life survived in comfort...adapting....believing in our vision and what is possible despite our fears and current circumstances....it takes patience, stength, committment, compassion, kindness, courage and Great Love. Of course it can be easier to complain about how everyone is fucking up this world, and how to survive this pointless nightmare so that we can wake up to another day of pointless survival. Thats fair enough...even reasonable given the conditions the majority of the worlds population live in...but ultimately it is unhelpful and stagnant thinking based on fear and disempowerment.

And if 'women' have problems, that means 'men' have problems, which means 'people' have problems, because we are all people.... problems felt by half the population will obviously effect the whole population.

We cant have it both ways in regards to wanting to live in a safe and harmonious community but investing billions of dollars, energy, and resources in weapons, wars, the sickness industry, destroying and polluting the earth, wanting to shoot anyone that we think is threatening us, watching and enjoying violent books, movies, music, television, videogames, tuning into a constant stream of violence that is constantly being focused on and perpetuated in the media, and refusing to adequately provide for each member, including the very least fortunate, in our communities. If you want life, dont give people death, dont get yourself off on death.

Not everyone wants to learn self defence. Not everyone wants to harm someone. Not everyone is prepared to kill someone. I would rather be harmed or die than harm another or kill another. And if it came to it, obviously thats what i would do, die rather than kill. I know what I am and what life is. I know many people that also think this way. My life is equal in value to all others, not worth more or less. I'm not afraid to die, and im not afraid to live. I'm not prepared to live at someone else's expense, or give anyone death. I would choose a free life over and over, rather than survival and taking life from others. I would rather try harder to be what i believe in, than do something that i believe is 'wrong'. Having hurt people before, because of my lack of emotional control, i know that i never want to purposefully hurt anyone again. It feels like dying to harm someone, it eats away what is best and affirming about life. It makes you think that anyone could and would do it. It makes you feel afraid of yourself and other people. If there is a way to choose life over harm, i will find it, because it is important to me. I say no to a world where someone's death is what my life is worth

I've had many experiences in which ive found an easier way to avert violence than using violence. Honestly...compassion is the answer....recognise yourself in them, see that they are you, that they are God, connect in Love...dont be afraid, and give them a way out. I understand and respect that it is hard to do that, but it is also possible and it works. Many people, depending on where they live, what they think, what they do, who they interact with...will never have to deal with violence. Violence doesnt just happen. It happens for a reason. If there is violence in the community, it is the problem of the whole community. If people are afraid to help, that is a problem of the whole community. If we want to live in a better, safer, more free community, we have to make it happen by taking responsibility for it. The best way to achieve this is to be a good neighbour, and friend, and to see people as humans worthy of compassion and capable of brilliance, each person's lot in the community can effect our own. Characters like batman are self indulgent and stupid....dont be some guy wearing a bat mask with pointy ears and skin tight rubber, spending billions on a creepy hideout cave, speciality cars, dingaling weapons, training to kill, throwing fundraisers with the affluent to raise money for your dying city while you roll around in all your money and comfort thinking you are a hero because you give to charity and kill 'villians'. Be more like Spongebob...goofy goobers genuine love and kindness and helpfulness will triumph over planktons lemon scented plan z and save bikini bottom