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Featured I don't know if this is allowed, but I'd love it if someone would type me...

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by HorsesIncorporated, Jul 25, 2019.

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  1. wiredandwound

    wiredandwound Community Member

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    Was that a Pauly Shore reference?
     
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  2. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Reporting rape to the police is the right and "manly" thing to do.
     
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  3. OP
    HorsesIncorporated

    HorsesIncorporated Community Member

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    Nah, it was sexual harassment. Sorry if I made it sound confusing. She was raped in the past and is therefore very passive about people basically making her cry at work. She never cries. A guy coworker came up to her yesterday at her workplace and told her to show him noods, she said fuck off. He literally pulled out his phone and showed her a picture of him buck ass naked. The law failed her the first time, so she's passive.

    She asked me not to call, so I told her if it happens one more time, I will.
     
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  4. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Good.
     
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  5. OP
    HorsesIncorporated

    HorsesIncorporated Community Member

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    She said originally that she would cooperate if I did call, and even told me the times she worked so I could. I think she knew I didn't want to take no for an answer. Before I called today, I texted her and she said please dont, so I didn't.
     
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  6. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    Honestly, I would have still reported it to the police because it's their responsibility to enforce the law.
     
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  7. OP
    HorsesIncorporated

    HorsesIncorporated Community Member

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    I know. I should, but it's hard for me to just bypass her wishes even though my gut tells me to.

    I also asked you specifically because I figured ENTJs would be the first to answer if someone was being weak or not, as you guys are usually the opposite of weak?
     
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  8. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    This is a weird level of over involvement. Glad you listened to her in the end though. The thing you guys seem to not be grasping is that women don't need you to White Knight in there and call the police and rescue them from sexual harrassment because it would make you feel better to do so. You have zero idea what women deal with when reporting harrassment or how the legal system tends to treat victims. It's something she needs to be ready to do herself. And she will get there with support.. rather than someone else taking control but not actually having to face the legal or systemic ramifications. This has nothing to do with mbti types also. Maybe you should ask women and your friend rather than being concerned about trolls or what you think strong mbti types might think. Again, good on you for not reporting it without her being ready. Just listen to her and encourage her to stand up for herself.
     
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  9. OP
    HorsesIncorporated

    HorsesIncorporated Community Member

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    While true, she is literally my best friend. Like 5 years best friend, nothing separates us best friend. Any other person and I never even would have considered it.

    Like I said, I didn't call and I will never end up calling, even if it happens again.
     
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  10. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    That's fair.
     
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  11. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    I see your point here, but I think you ought not to be so condescending.

    The issue here is the moral duty of reporting a crime. The gender of the victim, the perpetrator, or the person who reports is irrelevant.

    Don't make this a gender issue, because it isn't. You have no greater authority in advising Horses on account of your gender than Pin does on his. This is simply about the duty of one citizen to another.
     
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  12. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    I don't know what the laws are in your country about sexual harassment (whether it needs to be multiple incidents, or sustained harassment, &c.), so I'll leave that judgement in your hands. Therefore, let's assume that a crime has been committed.

    First of all, the law is for everyone, equally, so let's can the gender debate garbage and use a modified version of Rawls' 'original position' by imagining that the victim could be anyone - a little girl, a little boy, elderly man, elderly woman, disabled, able, it doesn't matter - if the demographic categorisation of the victim in any of these cases changes your judgement (except perhaps in the case of minors), then you're failing jurisprudence.

    Secondly, the law only works insofar as it is enforced, and so there is a very real imperative to making sure that all breaches are appropriately punished. 'Certainty of arrest' has been a very large factor in increasing innate deterrence across the twentieth century in the West, and it provides a kind of 'herd immunity' effect when particularly strong. Crime is not just about the particular case, but about the precedent it helps to create for all of us.

    There is also the fact that we don't know who we're dealing with here - an intervention now might help prosecutors to establish a pattern if something more serious occurs down the line, not to mention the possibility that this person may become emboldened by the lack of punishment into doing something more serious in the first place. Worst case scenario - suppose that your friend goes missing - there needs to be a record of this to aid in the police investigation.

    Someone committed a crime and got away with it because what? A witness was afraid of being a 'White Knight' because that's a derogatory label? Nonsense - we are all less safe when such considerations are allowed to take precedence (this is what the whole 'Me Too' movement is about, is it not?).

    Horses, do not allow any contemporary political debates to cloud your judgement on this. Use Kant's first 'categorical imperative' to help you decide - Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.

    This means that if you do not report, you are saying that you approve of all such non-reporting by witnesses in similar cases. Would you like that to be the rule? Imagine if you had a daughter who was experiencing this, and her friend had the opportunity to report but didn't, would you be happy with that?
     
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  13. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    Jesus Christ, months!? Get it fucking reported immediately and stop pissing about.

    You have a genuine concern for the safety of your friend and a crime has been committed. If she goes missing, it's on you buddy. You have a duty.

    FOR FUCK'S SAKE smh
     
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  14. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    It is a gender issue lol. You're all dudes here talking about how it's OP's job to report sexual harrassment for the sake of the woman who suffered it.. because she's not ready. You don't see the irony there?

    What proof does OP have this happened? Besides his friend's word .. which I am not questioning but the police will. How will it hold up when they go to question her and she isn't ready? I imagine that could be traumatizing as well. It is not approving. It is not a sin of ommision. It comes down to understanding that this is the sort of crime that must be reported by the victim. Funny how you are just telling him to take matters into his own hands rather than encouraging his friend to do it (which it sounds like he does and should continue to do.) She needs help to process what happened to her and to take matters into her own hands. Don't you think if she wanted it reported she would give her consent or what's more-- do it herself? In the US, on a crime like this unless SHE presses charges there is no crime.
     
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  15. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    Nah. Can't we just pretend that Horses is a girl or something? I have no interest in using the instance of a crime as some kind of dangerous exercise in building self-courage for the victim.

    This is irrelevant. Pressing charges is up to her, but it ought to be reported for the paper-trail it establishes.

    I disagree with your position in the strongest terms. It's simply irresponsible.
     
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  16. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    What do you think will happen if he reports it... She doesn't cooperate with an investigation because she's afraid and it all gets dropped? Will that make you guys feel better at least?

    Also I'm wondering if the person who raped her is also her harrasser? OP isn't very specific. So to me it kind of reads like she's been victimized by someone else and
    the system failed her so she's afraid and lost faith. Personally I'd continue to encourage her to make reports and link with advocacy and support groups near her Or even volunteer to go with her to make a report. I know it's cross country or something but if this is a big deal to OP then go all the way.

    I'm thinking about this logistically. What will happen if OP calls the police cross country for a crime the victim has asked him not to report? If that backfires she's still stuck with the fall out. Not OP. Law enforcement won't care what he says if she's not ready to talk or press charges. So he is right to not report when she asks him not to. I think she understands how it could go unless she's ready.

    It's one thing to report it if he has witnessed a crime. But he hasn't. So I'm not sure how much standing his report could have.
     
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    #76 acd, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
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  17. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    Horses will be secure in the knowledge that he did all he could do, and there will be a record made of the report whatever the outcome. As I mentioned, this is important in aiding investigations should something more serious occur down the line (e.g. she goes missing).

    Yes encouraging her is preferable, but I'm of the opinion that she ought not to leave it any longer, and if she's unwilling then Horses should take it into his own hands. It's been 'months' already, and an intervention needs to be made before it escalates into something worse. Sure, the risk of this escalating to a rape-murder are very low, but the consequences of that risk bear the precaution we are suggesting. Tarrying on this out of some misguided sense of female agency is irresponsible and ill-motivated in the extreme.
     
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  18. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    You think her life is in danger. I didn't think so initially. I guess I was just imagining some douchebag making unwanted advances (because unfortunately women get that shit all the time.) And while it should be reported; to HR at work and possibly law enforcement it didn't seem like y'all were thinking about this in terms of fall out for her if law enforcement doesn't take it seriously because she didn't report it. I'm thinking she can be empowered to take steps but if I read this wrong and the rapist is her harasser you may be right. We don't know what the harrassment consists of either. I read it as the woman had been assaulted in the past and assumed by someone else and nothing happened to the attacker so now she is afraid to report this other harasser. I hope she is able to find resources and support to process all of this and take action. RAINN might be a good place to start for that. Lots of info and maybe they can link her locally.
     
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    #78 acd, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  19. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

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    Yes, potentially her life/safety is in danger - it's a small chance but a chance nonetheless. That's what changes the calculus for me, and why I think that trying to figure out what to do by focusing only on the most probable outcomes in a utilitarian way is very risky.

    For me it's a kind of insurance that is worth all the hassle that it might entail. We can imagine ourselves in her shoes in the following scenario:

    I wake up and I've been kidnapped. It's the fucking guy from work and he's talking about starting a life together in another country. Fuck - I should have reported him. Or I should have let my friend report him. I hope the Police can figure it out quickly.

    In this instance, we know what course of action Horses could have taken prior to this to increase her odds of being found.
     
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  20. wolly.green

    wolly.green Community Member

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    "I would go off on you. But I don't think that would be useful".

    Mate, that's Thinker talk right there! You should submit a video talking about something you like so we can type you.
     
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