I don't know if this is allowed, but I'd love it if someone would type me...

[Krypton]

@Deleted member 16771 @acd @HorsesIncorporated

Regardless of the decision to report or not, I think maximizing the odds that she does follow up on it, and continue to do that, and do it well is important here too. So acd's suggestions of getting a group like RAINN involved (if possible, there may not be as much support in this woman's country) and/or going cross-country are still really valuable. Might increase the risk as it would make things take more time though.

I say this only to make sure that didn't get lost in the shuffle. And this doesn't necessarily mean you don't report after those options have been tried.

 

[HorsesIncorporated]

"I would go off on you. But I don't think that would be useful".

Mate, that's Thinker talk right there! You should submit a video talking about something you like so we can type you.

I very very very much wanted to go off on them, but arguing stresses me out, will just get me trolled further for taking the bait, and could get me in trouble with mods...not worth it. It just frustrates me so hard.

 

[Tin Man]

Yes, potentially her life/safety is in danger - it's a small chance but a chance nonetheless. That's what changes the calculus for me, and why I think that trying to figure out what to do by focusing only on the most probable outcomes in a utilitarian way is very risky.

For me it's a kind of insurance that is worth all the hassle that it might entail. We can imagine ourselves in her shoes in the following scenario:

I wake up and I've been kidnapped. It's the fucking guy from work and he's talking about starting a life together in another country. Fuck - I should have reported him. Or I should have let my friend report him. I hope the Police can figure it out quickly.

In this instance, we know what course of action Horses could have taken prior to this to increase her odds of being found.

That's a slippery slope argument if I've ever seen one. You could make the same argument that if she reports it to the police, and they don't take her seriously, then they won't believe her when she's actually in danger.
You really seem more concerned with reporting the crime and upholding the law, than the person's protection. I'm not sure why, but it's a stance I'm very much against.

I would have agreed with Horses and Hos (you really should have your own crime show) when I was more about proving my masculinity. But really I was just projecting, and putting the consequences of my actions onto another person.
Like acd has said, you don't know what it's like for a woman (or any gender) to report sexual harassment/assault. It's an incredibly humiliating experience. And if you're not certain this is the right way to go, the cops will just think that you're over-reacting. And I've seen what happens in that instance. It makes someone even less likely to report harassment in the future.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

You really seem more concerned with reporting the crime and upholding the law, than the person's protection. I'm not sure why, but it's a stance I'm very much against.

Upholding the law is an end in itself - it's a good that ought to be pursued, because the deterrent effect of the law itself increases with the certainty of arrest.

I see it as a duty, since an increased deterrent effect helps protect all potential victims everywhere, as well as reducing the burden on law enforcement.

This is a bit Kantian, but not reporting is immoral in this view, because you're actively contributing to a culture of non-enforcement.

I would have agreed with Horses and Hos (you really should have your own crime show) when I was more about proving my masculinity. But really I was just projecting, and putting the consequences of my actions onto another person.

I'm getting tired of these ad hominems relating to our gender. You ought to know better than to argue that 'your argument is invalid because you're men'. It's really quite tiresome and very weak.

 

[Tin Man]

Upholding the law is an end in itself - it's a good that ought to be pursued, because the deterrent effect of the law itself increases with the certainty of arrest.

I see it as a duty, since an increased deterrent effect helps protect all potential victims everywhere, as well as reducing the burden on law enforcement.

This is a bit Kantian, but not reporting is immoral in this view, because you're actively contributing to a culture of non-enforcement.

Well, all I can say to that is I disagree. Too many laws are put in place which favor those already in power.
And upholding a viewpoint of law = good just keeps things that way. I believe it's actually immoral, not to challenge the law.

But that's a different discussion.

I'm getting tired of these ad hominems relating to our gender. You ought to know better than to argue that 'your argument is invalid because you're men'. It's really quite tiresome and very weak.

I wasn't really talking about you in that statement. Just stating where I was once coming from. And why I had changed. I don't believe your motivation in this case, is to prove your virility as a man.
And it wouldn't matter what gender you are, I still believe that putting the consequences of your actions onto another is, to put it simply, shitty. In fact, I see it as almost a separate type of attack. You can't know the outcome of this. Maybe it will be positive, maybe it will be negative. And if's only affecting you then that's one thing. But doing this to another person is really duplicitous. I, for one, would certainly never trust you again if I were in that position . You might say you don't care about my feelings, acting as a lawful citizen is more important.. But the fact is your motivation is also coming from emotion. Just because you believe it is correct, doesn't make it so.

 

[Krypton]

That's a slippery slope argument if I've ever seen one. You could make the same argument that if she reports it to the police, and they don't take her seriously, then they won't believe her when she's actually in danger.

I guess to be fair the police would probably have their ways of tracking this stuff down even if she was kidnapped. Though if she did go missing I don't think there would be much for the police to believe or not. At most just a vague feeling.

But then we have to figure: If nothing is done at all, it's very unlikely to get any better. So even if reporting isn't a good option steps should be taken to make reporting a safer bet in the future. I don't agree with the idea that it's wrong to help other people for fear of doing the wrong thing and hurting them instead. It's wrong not to learn from your and other people's mistakes in that area, but that's different.

I still believe that putting the consequences of your actions onto another is, to put it simply, shitty. In fact, I see it as almost a separate type of attack. You can't know the outcome of this. Maybe it will be positive, maybe it will be negative. And if's only affecting you then that's one thing. But doing this to another person is really duplicitous. I, for one, would certainly never trust you again if I were in that position . You might say you don't care about my feelings, acting as a lawful citizen is more important.. But the fact is your motivation is also coming from emotion. Just because you believe it is correct, doesn't make it so.

So I'm in a weird position because I agree with acd about possible next steps but disagree with this philosophical kernel. You can know the likely outcome of some decisions, because you have access to information outside yourself.

Would you say the same thing you're saying now about, for instance, someone who refuses to go to therapy for their untreated depression? Or who refuses to take medication for a condition because they bought into a conspiracy theory about the side effects?

 

[HorsesIncorporated]

 

[Tin Man]

I guess to be fair the police would probably have their ways of tracking this stuff down even if she was kidnapped. Though if she did go missing I don't think there would be much for the police to believe or not. At most just a vague feeling.

But then we have to figure: If nothing is done at all, it's very unlikely to get any better. So even if reporting isn't a good option steps should be taken to make reporting a safer bet in the future. I don't agree with the idea that it's wrong to help other people for fear of doing the wrong thing and hurting them instead. It's wrong not to learn from your and other people's mistakes in that area, but that's different.

I can agree with that. My issue with Deleted member 16771' point is that his belief of upholding the law as a moral prerogative.
I think you should do everything you can to ensure a person's safety up to the point of violating their autonomy. Because that means you're adopting a potentially dangerous viewpoint. Again this is a slippery slope argument but I'm only using it as an example, but what if you believe that a person transitioning is simply them warping their body because of mental illness. So because you're concerned with their safety, you do whatever you can to stop this. I know the two situations are wildly different, but that kernel is the same. The belief that you know what's better for someone and acting on that belief over their objections.

So I'm in a weird position because I agree with acd about possible next steps but disagree with this philosophical kernel. You can know the likely outcome of some decisions, because you have access to information outside yourself.

Would you say the same thing you're saying now about, for instance, someone who refuses to go to therapy for their untreated depression? Or who refuses to take medication for a condition because they bought into a conspiracy theory about the side effects?

I would. I've been in that position where I was extremely depressed, and dealing with ton of shit from past traumas, but didn't think going to a therapist would help. But I kind of just forced myself to go, but I was so negative about the whole thing it kind of put me off therapy for years. And I know people who have had the same experience. And it's even worse when a therapist, who should know better, pushes you on reliving the trauma.
As for medication, well I'm not really sure how you can force someone to take it, without actually holding them down and shoving it into their mouth. All you can do is create an environment where they feel supported and safe. Where they can talk about their trepidation of being medicated.
I think it's the same with the current situation. To try and encourage this person to go to the police, and support them whatever the outcome. I just believe that calling the police for a person who has specifically said they are not ready to deal with that is, to put it simply again, shitty.

Of course, I'm as biased as anyone else. And I could be wrong, putting my belief in autonomy over someones safety. Which is why I think it's important to discuss this stuff. To examine where you're coming from, so if something similar does happen you won't just rush in and do what you feel is right. And even more this goes into discussions on the broader idea of consent. And when is it okay to put a your beliefs ahead of a persons consent.

 

[Ifur]

INFP with an itch that likely isn't a depressive disorder, but could be lack of support around interests.

The function test results are how certain the test is, and Fi and Ne is every high up there, your personality may be more outgoing but the psychology does indicate INFP.

Being 22 also helps, certain things are not fully developed until about 26 from a brain organic point of view that involves things like being very good at recognising emotions in faces (that improves til 26 due to biological maturity).

Stages of development for MBTI has a model that says one differentiate introversion and extroversion between 4 and 6, primary function til age og 12 or 13, when seconday function starts developing until early 20's.

Where the fourth stage is 35 and holder for the least preferred functions to be developed.

Assuming INFP, Si would start to show itself more, and it looks like this is what you are doing. Introverted sensory abstractions about personal experience, impressions and identity.

INFP is a good assumptions and you an correct for "development stages and phases in life".

Should have used intraversion and extraversion, often used in MBTI to differentiate things like Big-5 as it measures more of a "neurological reponses and preferences", so it does not overlap with MBTI.
Big-5 is however very useful, so you can say INFP with Big-5 extroversion.

Big-5 is actually the most respected personality index, and be careful, as MBTI is also respected in their right communities. While Big-5 can assess, "nuts and bolts for things like irritability and preference to agree with others" it has more to do with feedback and neurological factors more studied in psychopathology. MBTI is a *psychological type index* not a personality inventory along the same lines as Big-5 where neither may say accurate who you are as a person, your history identity, complexes and quirks.

MBTI and Big-5 are used in professional settings to a great extent, and in professional settings, only Big-5 really needs a test unless there is an interests to aid personality development.

A better analogy to distinguish Big5 and MBTI is that Big5 involves things like not wanting to disagree with others for getting physically ill when others are upset, for having a strong response there. While MBTI involves an order of preference for things one notices and think about, along larger basic domains that Big5 may identity more accurately.

 

[HorsesIncorporated]

@Ifur I simply cannot imagine myself as an INFP...I consistently test as ExFP...

 

[Ifur]

@Ifur I simply cannot imagine myself as an INFP...I consistently test as ExFP...

In a professional assesment, the tests can start the discovery process.
This involves things like what you are told, how you experience your social roles and see yourself.

In another thread I just quoted this from C.G Jung on the Fi function.

Any stormy emotion, however, will be struck down with murderous
coldness, unless it happens to catch the woman on her unconscious side—
that is, unless it hits her feelings by arousing a primordial image.

That is one of the things you said about yourself that stands out.
In principles, "all functions are abstractions and therefore involved in emotions and instincts.

Now if we disregard everything personality and keep this to psychology, assuming Fi is leading, Ne description starts as follows:

Whenever intuition predominates, a peculiar and unmistakable
psychology results. Because extraverted intuition is oriented by the object,
there is a marked dependence on external situations, but it is altogether
different from the dependence of the sensation type. The intuitive is never
to be found in the world of accepted reality-values, but he has a keen nose
for anything new and in the making. Because he is always seeking out new
possibilities, stable conditions suffocate him. He seizes on new objects or
situations with great intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm,
only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without any compunction and
apparently without remembering them, as soon as their range is known and
no further developments can be divined.

Many types, Fi and Ne not an exception, do have inner conflict.

And to top it of with Si.

The predominance of introverted sensation produces a definite type,
which is characterized by certain peculiarities. It is an irrational type,
because it is oriented amid the flux of events not by rational judgment but
simply by what happens. Whereas the extraverted sensation type is guided
by the intensity of objective influences, the introverted type is guided by
the intensity of the subjective sensation excited by the objective stimulus.
Obviously therefore, no proportional relation exists between object and
sensation, but one that is apparently quite unpredictable and arbitrary.
What will make an impression and what will not can never be seen in
advance, and from outside. Did there exist an aptitude for expression in
any way proportional to the intensity of his sensations, the irrationality of
this type would be extraordinarily striking. This is the case, for instance,
when an individual is a creative artist.

So you may be largely outgoing with an exhaustive itch that can deplete you.
INFP is Fi Ne Si Te, so you would likely function well with ST types that can help direct this balancing act and be roundabouts for activity.

It's about finding the psychological type, forget about personality traits to get rid of confusion, rely on Big5 for that.

Love Jung and his blunt style, just skip to where he explains the functions.
https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...ected-Works-Volume-6_-Psychological-Types.pdf

Now to differentiate between INFP and ENFP, given 22, the tertiary function is likely starting to show.
And I suspect that is Si!

 

[HorsesIncorporated]

In a professional assesment, the tests can start the discovery process.
This involves things like what you are told, how you experience your social roles and see yourself.

In another thread I just quoted this from C.G Jung on the Fi function.



That is one of the things you said about yourself that stands out.
In principles, "all functions are abstractions and therefore involved in emotions and instincts.

Now if we disregard everything personality and keep this to psychology, assuming Fi is leading, Ne description starts as follows:



Many types, Fi and Ne not an exception, do have inner conflict.

And to top it of with Si.



So you may be largely outgoing with an exhaustive itch that can deplete you.
INFP is Fi Ne Si Te, so you would likely function well with ST types that can help direct this balancing act and be roundabouts for activity.

It's about finding the psychological type, forget about personality traits to get rid of confusion, rely on Big5 for that.

Love Jung and his blunt style, just skip to where he explains the functions.
https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...ected-Works-Volume-6_-Psychological-Types.pdf

Now to differentiate between INFP and ENFP, given 22, the tertiary function is likely starting to show.
And I suspect that is Si!

I'll have to answer more in depth later, but...I love socializing but it drains me very quickly. But I find it so enjoyable I just let myself get drained...

 

[Ifur]

I'll have to answer more in depth later, but...I love socializing but it drains me very quickly. But I find it so enjoyable I just let myself get drained...

Now, the subject and object relation and the intraverted and extraverted attitudes are important here, and the crown example of how Se aren't actually the social and personable types.

The Extraverted Sensation Type
[606] No other human type can equal the extraverted sensation type in
realism. His sense for objective facts is extraordinarily developed. His life
is an accumulation of actual experiences of concrete objects, and the more
pronounced his type, the less use does he make of his experience. In
certain cases the events in his life hardly deserve the name “experience” at
all.

This is not you for certain, this involve externalising the subject towards the object, where development is learning how to experience and be more involved in the situation.
Time is not spent analysing the experiences for insight, sympathy or empathy, but rather how one can get more out of any situation.

Se + Ti/Fi as a much greater indifference that prevents self-criticism or getting the object "upset" or stopping something in its track to prevent sensation coming to an end, more likely to physicall slam you in the ground rather than express feelings in advance.

Ne and Fi seem to be where you are more developed and mature.
Cant exclude Ne Fi Te, or Ne Ti Fe either if you want to get resolution as to where you fit in jungian typeology. Without an experts that can help in person or a group, reading Jung is the best thing to do when uncertain, as to get an insight into what it means. Other factors can make it difficult, there is no "exactness" concerning, this type is exactly like this or that.

Trying to "spot" the leading function and the tertiary functions, I would bet money on Fi Ne Si Te.

 

[Ifur]

This seems to have become abandoned, but it is such that MBTI does use behavioural markers that do correlate with psychological preferences.
Strong Big5 results in certain areas may imply that you would NEVER test a certain psychological type because of stronger personality or behavioral preferences.