How pissed off are you at 'the man'?

[Apone]

On a scale from 1-10, how pissed off would you say you are?

I'm bringing this up because on another online forum I go to, a guy has just confessed to having taken out a huge student loan and now that they're asking him to pay it back, he's refusing. Not only is he refusing, but he has actually left the country... and has absolutely no intention of EVER paying it back... not because he can't, but because he would rather use the money for something else.

And this is amazing enough, but the comments on this site were also congratulatory. Some people actually seemed to think that he was somehow striking back against a corrupt system and that he has absolutely no reason to feel guilty about it. They brought up all kinds of things like how the big banks/corporations do it all them (of course they're always nameless corporations, or generic ones like Coke and Walmart which are obviously evil even though most of these people haven't got a clue what they've actually done).

Later in the thread, he claimed that he was an anarchist-- and that he went to a third world southeast Asian country and used the money to build a school in what I'm assuming is a poor village. Apparently the government there gave him some sort of congratulatory award or something for his work. Building schools is very nice, but still-- he basically stole 10s of thousands of dollars from banks (Canadian banks-- which is actually worse than American ones because they're actually NOT corrupt and still regulated)... and everyone thinks it's great.

I think it's probably related to the outrage over the financial collapse/recession/OWS... but still, it's amazing how people can justify all kinds of things to themselves.

I guess my questions are:

1. How many of you would be able to justify this kind of thing to yourselves?
2. How old are you?

I like to believe in people, but this kind of thing makes it really really hard.
Also--sorry about all of the threads I've been starting recently.

 

[Tin Man]

1) I wouldn't. If I stole tens of thousands of dollars, I would have no problem admitting I'm a thief. I'd also have no problem spending the money.
2) 29

You can believe that people are basically good and also believe that they're stupid, greedy and cowardly. People are complex.

 

[linger]

Yeah. I'm not sure I would have a hard time justifying it--but part of that is my superpower of absolute justification (I can justify anything if you give me a moment to figure out how) and it doesn't necessarily mean I'd fully believe the justification. I'm not sure I'd ever have the balls to actually do something like that (and my crazy sense of responsibility probably wouldn't ever let me), but I would definitely have been one of the people saying "that's awesome" to him. Part of that, though, I think is because I can't stand the fact that I'm always going to be paying off student loans. Unless someone showed me how stealing the money from the bank directly hurt someone else, I don't think I'd have any problem with it other than a bit of jealousy.

It wouldn't really affect my belief in people. How does it affect yours? Is it the act of stealing? The act of justifying stealing?

And I'm 30. (That looks oldish for some reason this morning.) -- What do you think the ages will show, [MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION] ? Have you a theory there? (That is one of the more curious parts of this thread that I'm now going to be looking out for...)

(Don't apologize for starting threads!)

 

[this is only temporary]

On a scale from 1-10, how pissed off would you say you are?

I'd say about, um.... 3? I don't really think "THE MAN" exists, that much, so it is hard to be really pissed off at him. If THE MAN exists he is just us.

I'm bringing this up because on another online forum I go to, a guy has just confessed to having taken out a huge student loan and now that they're asking him to pay it back, he's refusing. Not only is he refusing, but he has actually left the country... and has absolutely no intention of EVER paying it back... not because he can't, but because he would rather use the money for something else.

And this only makes it harder for legitimate students/enterpreneuers/homeowners to get loans they do intend to pay back.

And this is amazing enough, but the comments on this site were also congratulatory. Some people actually seemed to think that he was somehow striking back against a corrupt system and that he has absolutely no reason to feel guilty about it. They brought up all kinds of things like how the big banks/corporations do it all them (of course they're always nameless corporations, or generic ones like Coke and Walmart which are obviously evil even though most of these people haven't got a clue what they've actually done).

Yeah, because corporations are actually made up of robots, droids, and random car parts. Actual people have nothing to do with them. Didn't you know?

Later in the thread, he claimed that he was an anarchist-- and that he went to a third world southeast Asian country and used the money to build a school in what I'm assuming is a poor village.

This smells like bullshit.

Apparently the government there gave him some sort of congratulatory award or something for his work. Building schools is very nice, but still-- he basically stole 10s of thousands of dollars from banks (Canadian banks-- which is actually worse than American ones because they're actually NOT corrupt and still regulated)... and everyone thinks it's great.

More bullshit. (without proof that is. But he can't provide proof because then the people he stole the money from could then find him and take steps to recover it.

I think it's probably related to the outrage over the financial collapse/recession/OWS... but still, it's amazing how people can justify all kinds of things to themselves.

Especially when they are conveniently anonymous. He sounds like a class A bullshit artist to me.

I guess my questions are:

1. How many of you would be able to justify this kind of thing to yourselves?
2. How old are you?

I like to believe in people, but this kind of thing makes it really really hard.
Also--sorry about all of the threads I've been starting recently.

I don't think I'd ever actually do it in the first place... the whole point of a loan is that you have to pay it back eventually. I suppose if I really, really REALLY had to, as in someone's life was at stake, I'd do it and be like, "Well, I did it." But there are better ways to get $10 grand if you really need it.

 

[Patrick Williams]

On a scale from 1-10, how pissed off would you say you are?


I guess my questions are:

1. How many of you would be able to justify this kind of thing to yourselves?
2. How old are you?

I like to believe in people, but this kind of thing makes it really really hard.
Also--sorry about all of the threads I've been starting recently.

I cannot justify what he did and think it was wrong if he took the loan with the intention of knowing that he was not going to pay it back (and he definitely had the means to pay it back). What is the difference between that and plan old-fashioned stealing? It is stealing. How would you feel is you loaned a person $1,000 and the person told you, promised you, they would pay you back knowing in their mind that they were lying to you and had no intention of ever paying the money back to you? We need to treat others the way we would want them to treat us. He thinks he is right but he is just as wrong and corrupt as the corporations he is, supposedly, fighting. If you do the same thing, then you become just as corrupt too.

47 years old.

Also, no apologies for starting threads - it keeps it interesting.

 

[Apone]

[MENTION=5927]Patrick Williams[/MENTION]

Yes, that is exactly what I thought. There's a difference between falling victim to predatory lending practices and intentionally taking out loans so that you can spend the money however you see fit. And since it was Canada, it was definitely a government loan, which means tax dollars… and I think bonds and other investments which, because they're government-related, are assumed to be safe and stable. I know that when I set up my portfolio some of it included mortgages and student loans and such… I can't say I know exactly how it all fits together and can't find any information online about it either, but it does connect back to social services like Health Care and such, which he has of course lost access to (I'm sure that he'll enjoy Laotian health care-- much better than Canada).

Obviously if just one person does it then it's not going to have a massive effect, but if everyone did it then it could seriously hurt the entire country. I mean, money for schools, health care, public works, the arts, the military (okay, that one's not so great)… basically everything.

[MENTION=5824]linger[/MENTION]-- I'm not sure why I asked about age-- it seemed relevant at the time. I think it's because I can still remember being in my 20s, knowing almost nothing about the way things worked, and having all kinds of messed up idealistic notions that were completely shattered when I started traveling and mellowing out and realizing that it actually is better to do a lot of boring work together and reach compromises than to keep fighting and such-- and I think that that attitude is probably part of why so many people wanted to support this guy. On the other hand, I definitely didn't expect the older members of this board to support the guy… mostly because of the whole maturity/realistic outlook thing. But I'm willing to admit that maturity and age aren't necessarily connected.

 

[the]

I'm not mad at all. Also I don't care if he screwed a bank over. Corporations are not people my friend. I don't believe his story about building schools, seems like garbage ( could you post a link?)

What's the difference if he put all that loan on a credit card and declared bankruptcy?

 

[this is only temporary]

It's not like America where private for-profit loan agencies are actively exploiting 18 year olds and hunting them down and shackling them with debt until they die or are thrown in prison with Bush just sitting back and letting it all happen (apparently Obama is trying to give these kids options and even a shot at loan forgiveness, but Romney wants them to keep paying until they die)… I mean, this kid basically stole from absolutely everyone who pays taxes in Canada-- the amount was really small, but it still happened..

Um, not sure where you're getting your "information" but nobody goes to prison for not paying off student loans in the US. There is no debtor's prison here and there is not likely to be one. Look into bankruptcy proceedings if you don't believe me.

 

[linger]

[MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION]

That's sort of what I was thinking with the age thing as well. I think that, given the work I do, I'm always on the look out for mellowing too much in the "damn the man; save the Empire" area (my work is way too hard to ever give that up completely without causing some serious emotional damage), but there are some things that are completely misunderstood when it comes to how things work.

And my response is entirely built off the fact that I'm resentful about all the money I own in loans (and the further debt I'm going to have to accrue in order to go back for another round). I think I'm less angry at the financial man than the way education is a business in the US.

I honestly probably wouldn't believe a word the dude said about any of it, which makes it easier to appreciate it as a story of a rebel. I would steal 10k to support my students if I thought there wouldn't be consequences for them. But that's pretty impossible and a whole different issue.

 

[CindyLou]

There is no way I could do something like that. For example, while I might take every tax deduction available to me, I still don't know if it would go against my values or not to accept a tax credit. There is no way I wouldn't pay back a loan like that just like I didn't walk away from my home after that bubble burst. It's stealing.

Corporations are sometimes people. A corp can be one person, two people, or four. Yes, corps are people just as much as a 'taxpayer' is a person.

I am 31.

There are times in my life where I have justified not paying some things. For example when I was 19 I co-signed for a cellphone for a friend because I had credit when most people didn't at that age. When she didn't pay like she agreed, I turned it off and paid her balance that she owed. They wanted to charge me a 350 dollar fee for turning it off when it was really close to the end of the contract. I didn't pay that fee. I just ignored them and it went to collections and I still ignored them. Barely affected my credit but was still there 7 years later when I went to finance a car. LOL. I just shrugged my shoulders then too. It's hard to run away from things but easy if it's little stuff and something I didn't agree to 'borrow'.

So on a scale from 1 to 10 being pissed off at 'the man' I would put myself at a 1.

 

[this is only temporary]

Just to clarify -- I do not think corporations should be legally defined as people, I do, however, know they are made up of people. (what else could they be made of? Cyborgs? )

I walked away from a debt once -- it was one of those stupid idiotic "Book of the Month" clubs I signed up for, and they kept sending me books I didn't order. I paid for a couple, then cancelled the subscription. In writing.

They continued to send me books I didn't order, and they requested payment, which I refused on principle (and I kept the books, I felt no obligation whatsoever to go to the trouble of shipping them back, since I had clearly and in writing cancelled the subscription -- twice, actually -- and requested specifically that they send me no more books.) It was an inconvenience and an annoyance and I figured the best way to get them to stop was to cease returning their books. So I did.

That "debt" was then turned over to a collection agency, which I ignored as well, and I think it did make a small ding on my credit but that's it. I don't really apply for much credit anyway, so it was a non-issue. That was years ago and credit ratings usually only go back 7 years (I think) so that was that.

 

[Lerxst]

Oh... I was almost under the impression that he took the loan, went to school and then left the country. And he's Canadian... Had it happened like that and he was a US citizen, I'd also congratulate him. I'm of the mindset that education should be a right of every citizen, sully subsidized by the government; at most, a few years of government service should be required in exchange (Peace Corp being my ideal version).

The fact that he's from a rather non-corrupted system to begin with, never actually obtained the education and simply walked off with the money just makes him a crook. Don't think there's any sugar-coating that one.

 

[James]

Ten

 

[MindYourHead]

In a nutshell.
I hate "the man!" Always been one to defy authority to a degree.

I'm 51.

As far as the person in question.
If he never had any intentions of repaying. He is a thief.
If he never had any intentions of repaying, I would bet an audit of his application would find he was not honest and forthright. Therefore loan fraud, which is punishable by law in the US, and I am sure Canada doesn't look kindly on it either.

I find the whole "I built a school with the money" story suspect.
Even if it may be true, Al Capone fed the poor. While benevolent, it didn't make him any less of a criminal.

You can justify anything in your head, but that doesn't make a wrong a right, the immoral moral, or the unethical ethical. It only makes you delusional.
I think the built a school story is part of his delusion.

Banks don't force people to take out loans. No banker is given the job of holding a gun to the head of those signing the loan agreement papers.
Besides, in the case of the US, the banks no longer play the middleman handing out government backed student loans. The government is loaning it directly to the students.

If Obama were to forgive the loans, just who do you think would take the hit on it since it is taxpayer money?
If every recipient of the money refused to pay, who do you think it would hurt?
As always, the very people least able to afford it. Those that need loans and grants to go to school.

It's unfortunate that the cost of education has gotten so out of hand. I believe as Ron Paul has pointed out that it is because of student loans that education has gotten so expensive. Colleges and Universities are feeding off the trough of money, and have no reason to keep costs down. What do they do with the all the money anyway? It isn't put towards bettering the experience for the students. It goes to lining the pockets of administration, building palaces for the football and basketball teams. You know, the important things.
(Sarc-Int)

Ok. There is one instance I can think of where I refused to pay for services. Well, I paid only what I felt was fair & just.
I had cut my hand deeply when working in the garage one Saturday morning. I clearly was going to need stitches.
I went to the emergency room of my local hospital, and after waiting a couple of hours they finally took me to an exam room where they briefly looked it over, and then left me for another hour.

When the RN came in with the suture tray, she dropped it on the floor.
She got another tray, and proceeded to sew me up.
I didn't have insurance at the time, so weeks later I got the bill.
$600.00! And they were charging me for the 1st dropped suture tray.

Pissed off, I went up to the hospital and to the office where I could make a payment.
I threw $150.00 on the counter and said, "This is what these services were worth to me. This is all I am paying, and if you want the other $450.00 go ahead and sue me, I don't care. You will never see another penny!"
Never heard anything after that. No collections agency, nothing noted on my credit report. I kind of felt like I won.
Being 30 at the time, it didn't occur to me that somewhere someone was making up the difference. The hospital I am sure got their money in the way of a tax write off or other subsidy from the Government, or higher prices to all patients.

 

[Billy]

I agree with him that the system is corrupt, that YOUNG people coming out of highschool have to load themselves up with 10s of thousands of dollars in debt is part of their scam to own everyone. I applaud his actions since banks have been ripping us off for 100s of years with their bullshit. The day that a college degree isn't a requirement just to fucking work a decent job which forces you to work with loansharks (banks) is the day his actions are immoral IMO. But since he is a part of a wicked system where the banks own the government they can go fuck themselves. When they had a tough patch (which they created) they expected handouts from the government and we foot the bill, I say good for this guy that he was able to squeeze something out of those horrid bastards. Hopefully the CEO of the bank he borrowed it form wasnt able to go on Vacation that month.

 

[Soulful]

No, I cannot imagine doing that. I don't know if I would feel guilty not paying back money to a system that has more than its share, but I would feel insecure about my future freedom. The possibility that I should or could expect to be threatened with legal reprecaussions, and would walk around feeling that I could be faced with police at any moment is not something I welcome.

As someone who has thousands of dollars to pay back in the form of student loans, who does not blow her money, who has worked for what she has earned, and who wants to contribute positively to society, the uneven distribution of wealth both across the western world and globally does upset me. I am upset that my life circumstances left me with few alternatives but to enter into a loan agreement, but I also recognize that this is a resopnsibility I was offered and to which I agreed, and I'm hopeful I will be able to resolve the agreement in positive ways that don't involve me possibly taking money from others unjustly. It's not right that I am in this circumstance, but I'm also not going to pretend I understand the complexity of the system and that my not paying back the loans doesn't screw over a just individual. Or perhaps I only tell myself this as a means of not feeling powerless and hopeless over the circumstance I am in. I suspect it is the latter. But I also suspect I want to take some sort of responsibility for my actions, otherwise I'd feel powerless or even more vulnerable.

I think the systems are messed up, and I don't know how to challenge or shake them.

 

[Rferraris]

On a scale from 1-10, how pissed off would you say you are?

I'm bringing this up because on another online forum I go to, a guy has just confessed to having taken out a huge student loan and now that they're asking him to pay it back, he's refusing. Not only is he refusing, but he has actually left the country... and has absolutely no intention of EVER paying it back... not because he can't, but because he would rather use the money for something else.

And this is amazing enough, but the comments on this site were also congratulatory. Some people actually seemed to think that he was somehow striking back against a corrupt system and that he has absolutely no reason to feel guilty about it. They brought up all kinds of things like how the big banks/corporations do it all them (of course they're always nameless corporations, or generic ones like Coke and Walmart which are obviously evil even though most of these people haven't got a clue what they've actually done).

Later in the thread, he claimed that he was an anarchist-- and that he went to a third world southeast Asian country and used the money to build a school in what I'm assuming is a poor village. Apparently the government there gave him some sort of congratulatory award or something for his work. Building schools is very nice, but still-- he basically stole 10s of thousands of dollars from banks (Canadian banks-- which is actually worse than American ones because they're actually NOT corrupt and still regulated)... and everyone thinks it's great.

I think it's probably related to the outrage over the financial collapse/recession/OWS... but still, it's amazing how people can justify all kinds of things to themselves.

I guess my questions are:

1. How many of you would be able to justify this kind of thing to yourselves?
2. How old are you?

I like to believe in people, but this kind of thing makes it really really hard.
Also--sorry about all of the threads I've been starting recently.

I like your threads, so the more the better.


I couldn't burn the system this way.
But a couple points to consider.
I have the money. I have too much self respect. Just a douche thing to do. In my opinion. They lent it to you. On the terms you agreed to. Embarrassing you back out on your word. Would never/ could never. Some places you lose a hand or two. Maybe your life.

I turn 14 next year

 

[Kgal]

On a scale from 1-10, how pissed off would you say you are?

I'm bringing this up because on another online forum I go to, a guy has just confessed to having taken out a huge student loan and now that they're asking him to pay it back, he's refusing. Not only is he refusing, but he has actually left the country... and has absolutely no intention of EVER paying it back... not because he can't, but because he would rather use the money for something else.

And this is amazing enough, but the comments on this site were also congratulatory. Some people actually seemed to think that he was somehow striking back against a corrupt system and that he has absolutely no reason to feel guilty about it. They brought up all kinds of things like how the big banks/corporations do it all them (of course they're always nameless corporations, or generic ones like Coke and Walmart which are obviously evil even though most of these people haven't got a clue what they've actually done).

Later in the thread, he claimed that he was an anarchist-- and that he went to a third world southeast Asian country and used the money to build a school in what I'm assuming is a poor village. Apparently the government there gave him some sort of congratulatory award or something for his work. Building schools is very nice, but still-- he basically stole 10s of thousands of dollars from banks (Canadian banks-- which is actually worse than American ones because they're actually NOT corrupt and still regulated)... and everyone thinks it's great.

I think it's probably related to the outrage over the financial collapse/recession/OWS... but still, it's amazing how people can justify all kinds of things to themselves.

I guess my questions are:

1. How many of you would be able to justify this kind of thing to yourselves?
2. How old are you?

I like to believe in people, but this kind of thing makes it really really hard.
Also--sorry about all of the threads I've been starting recently.

First off I don't think you should be sorry for all of the threads you've started lately.

The National Bank of Canada is attempting to foreclose upon hundreds of American families’ homes in California over old credit card debts, according to a published report.

Bay Citizen reporter Rick Jurgens writes that the bank’s debt collection unit, Credigy Receivables, began filing foreclosure lawsuits recently that take advantage of a loophole in California’s laws that lets them go directly for a debtor’s home even if that property was not offered as collateral for a loan.

They can get away with this because California has left the relatively new practice of third parties buying and selling debts virtually unregulated, creating legal space that lets banks go directly after valuable assets that were never offered as security for loans. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/...losing-americans-homes-over-credit-card-debt/

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I was just telling someone the other day that I was thinking of taking out student loans and becoming a perpetual student till I die. Then let the government deal with the outstanding loans....And I'm only 56.

I applaud what the guy did. He took government money and put it where he felt it was best used. Our governments fritter our tax money away ALL THE TIME on bullshit. Why shouldn't we do it too? This whole damn pyramid scheme has got to come toppling down sooner or later - so why not take advantage?

 

[MindYourHead]

I was just telling someone the other day that I was thinking of taking out student loans and becoming a perpetual student till I die. Then let the government deal with the outstanding loans....And I'm only 56.

You know, for those of us in our 50's on that find ourselves out of work, this is a plausible idea.
I mean really, odds are you'd only have to milk it for 15-20 years.
Be the most educated person in the cemetery. lol!

 

[linger]

I was just telling someone the other day that I was thinking of taking out student loans and becoming a perpetual student till I die.

This is sometimes what I want to do. You can defer forever as long as you're in school. Interest accrues, but if you're never done, you won't have to pay it.

Unfortunately, I think that they'll only let you get so many degrees before they'll stop handing out the loans. (