How do you feel about cat calling?

[Cosima]

I was suprised and shocked when I saw this video. I´ve thought, that catcalling is not an issue but after watching this video I realized I have never experienced it in this scale. This is not cat- calling. This is violiation of privacy and personal space.I come from small country and never lived in big city though.

 

[SealHammer]

Sometimes that's alright you know, sex and gender isnt the same thing, sex roles are cultural constructs which vary with time and place, gender is what you are, male or female.

I personally dont think that sex roles are worthy of being demonised as they have been sometimes, radical feminists have actually campaigned for the recognition and appreciation of the differences between women and men, blinkered equality and equality as uniformity or standardisation has been a gross error and virtually discredited equality as a concept. Something a lot of the people campaigning for the redefinition of marriage to mean something other than what it has meant almost universally in all cultures and over historical time have failed to realise.

Sometimes I think the disappearence of, or repression of male sexed roles as patriarchal or chauvinistic has been a gross error too. I'm no conservative on this topic, not really, but validating the role of men as protectors, providers and personally responsible for the consequences of their actions, such as bedding down with women at random, wasnt that bad a thing. That's not to down play the actual patriarchal oppressions which have existed in the past or that do now, its disgusting and a betrayal of manliness.

I think you have sex and gender mixed up. The former is the anatomical subject, the latter is the overarching anthropological subject.

 

[DonTaushMe]

[video=youtube;7YQ1PhOnM3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YQ1PhOnM3I[/video]

What a cute butt! I'd call that cat anytime ;}

 

[La Sagna]

I totally agree that pornography gives a distorted version of sexuality, I dont believe what it portrays for the most part is sex at all but a string of bizarre fetishes which it produces itself to begin with as unique selling points, the idea that it could be shaping public perceptions and expectations among males and females isnt something I like to give over a lot of thought to really. Although I think it fits with wider tendencies which are seeking to militate against anything like traditional norms of sexuality or any natural feeling when it comes to sexuality too. A lot of what is promoted through pornography and, curiously, liberal academic abstract theorising I think fits under the rubicon of abnormal psychology.


The standard criticism of porn that it makes sex look easy, consequence free and available is a very, very fair one but it has its female corollaries too.

I remember a radio presenter from the BBC who had been in a storm and even publically violent relationship talk about how she'd had to go through therapy in order to discover that everyone was afflicted by beliefs that everyone else was having a better time than them, had better relationships, had better everything pretty much, leaving anyone feeling this way disatisfied with their own relationships, leading to addiction and all sorts of dreadful psychologically compensatory behaviours and ill coping strategies. To me that all should be patently obvious. Its just advertising to blame for that, although its part of it. People too easily engage in fantasy and slip into believing they have it worse than others when they dont.

There's a lot of truth in what you are saying here.

I know that most free-thinking people are hesitant to say anything negative about pornography because going back to the days of repressed sexuality isn't a good thing, but I believe you can still be critical of it and aware of it's negative impact without calling for it to be banned.

I am studying abnormal psychology right now and the continuity hypothesis states that mental health is best viewed as a contiuum between mental health and mental illness and that all people are somewhere on the continuum. I agree with that idea, someone can only be considered as having a mental disorder once they get past a certain point, usually when it is causing personal distress and/or harming others. If no harm is being done to anyone then it may be considering an abnormal behaviour but wouldn't be considered a disorder. I think we're all a little messed up .

I agree that one of the main issues that cause people to be unhappy and to behave in unhealthy ways is the idea that everybody else has it better somehow. Media has exasperated that problem greatly, especially advertising and social media. It is all an illusion and we all fall for it to a certain degree.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=9809]La Sagna[/MENTION]
I think it's less about the abstract concept of pornography as a whole and more about the actual extant and practical application of the porn industry.

In other words, porn is a shady business that has a lot of parallels to dope pushing with how they entice you to want more and better and riskier material, and they use incredibly sketchy practices to accomplish it, very exploitative advertising, and going so far as to create web crawlers that spy on search engines to create fake results to bring people to their site looking for content that doesn't even exist.

It's like seeing a sign at a grocer for giant luscious tomatoes and you go in and ask if they sell these tomatoes and they say "YES WE DO! THEY'RE RIGHT THIS WAY" and you go look and they don't have tomatoes at all, but they do have some rotten onions and potatoes growing roots and they say "OOPS, WE LIED TO GET YOU HERE, BUT PLEASE ENJOY OUR OTHER QUALITY PRODUCE AND IF YOU SIGN UP FOR THE CLUB YOU GET THE FRESHEST PRODUCE FOR ONLY $2.99 A MONTH"

 

[Eventhorizon]

Wha...? Like telling them dinner is served? Its ok I guess but generally I dont have to. Most of the time they tell me whwn they want to be fed.

 

[La Sagna]

[MENTION=9809]La Sagna[/MENTION]
I think it's less about the abstract concept of pornography as a whole and more about the actual extant and practical application of the porn industry.

In other words, porn is a shady business that has a lot of parallels to dope pushing with how they entice you to want more and better and riskier material, and they use incredibly sketchy practices to accomplish it, very exploitative advertising, and going so far as to create web crawlers that spy on search engines to create fake results to bring people to their site looking for content that doesn't even exist.

It's like seeing a sign at a grocer for giant luscious tomatoes and you go in and ask if they sell these tomatoes and they say "YES WE DO! THEY'RE RIGHT THIS WAY" and you go look and they don't have tomatoes at all, but they do have some rotten onions and potatoes growing roots and they say "OOPS, WE LIED TO GET YOU HERE, BUT PLEASE ENJOY OUR OTHER QUALITY PRODUCE AND IF YOU SIGN UP FOR THE CLUB YOU GET THE FRESHEST PRODUCE FOR ONLY $2.99 A MONTH"

I have to say that I don't know anything about that aspect of pornography but that doesn't surprise me. It is all about making money.

 

[sprinkles]

I have to say that I don't anything about that aspect of pornography but that doesn't surprise me. It is all about making money.

Yup so is selling cars but porn sites are a billion times worse.

 

[sprinkles]

[video=youtube;7YQ1PhOnM3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YQ1PhOnM3I[/video]

Wish my cat would do this. That way I have an excuse to miss calls and also not have people talk to me on the answering machine saying they know I'm here. I'm so fricking tolerant it is unreal. IF I WANTED TO TALK I WOULD and bitching into my machine is called obnoxious pressuring. They're lucky I don't pick up and tell them to fuck off.

 

[muir]

@muir If this keeps up we'll be wearing burqas.

Keep in mind that "confidence" doesn't entail dressing like a pornstar or intentionally being enticing to anyone. It means not being forced to dress down extensively simply because some people can't handle themselves.

That's a nice image of the ideal world

Shall we get back to discussing the real world now?

You know what we typically do with people who make their own issue become somebody else's problem? We lock them away. Or at least try to keep them out of society. A man who can't control himself and abide by etiquette and compulsively leers and jeers because he's seen too many sexy women is hypothetically a danger to society. It's no excuse.

And yes, women too.

Harrassment is plain wrong!

I'm not defending harrassment!

I'm way past that stage of the process!

For me i don;t have to make post after post about how wrong it is...for me it is a GIVEN that it is wrong behaviour

What i'm interested in is why it is happening

Many of my posts on various subjects are about the 'whys' of things

Behaviours can change, social mores change, attitudes change etc

So why are some guys missbehaving in this way in the street?

My opinion on that is due to the sexualisation of society

I'm not a prude and i'm not actually against sex or the naked human body.....the problem i believe is when the suggestion of sex is made but no actual sex is offered

In a sexualised society there needs to be a grounding of the energies that are stirred up otherwise those energies will find other outlets some of which might not be healthy

Another aspect of the sexualised society is the sexual objectification of people; men are being objectified now as well but most of the objectification has been of women ans women are not passive victims in that

For every image of a sexually suggestive female posted around the world there is a woman posing for the picture

Is cock teasing to sell cars or to sell music videos empowering?

I'd argue no and i'd say it is going to be sexually provocative and might stir up sexual energies

Further to this we have seen the breakdown of the nuclear family where the father would traditionally act as a role model for young males and teach them that it is not acceptable to cat call people

stir up sexual energies + have sex = great!
stir up sexual energies + no sex = bad!

 

[muir]

Most people don't pay attention to individuals in a large group until they distinguish themselves. The distinguishing factor would be the strike. All that's left afterwards is the motivation.

I'm following your line of logic, and your constant assumption is that women are incapable of completing an act of physical violence against others. Why? Why do you think women should not have absolute sovereignty over their bodies?

What the are you talking about?


Of course women should have soverignty over their own bodies!

What has that got to do with it being a bad idea for them to launch pre-emptive violent strikes against strangers in the street?

 

[muir]

You're combining perspectives that I already separated up above, and no where did I say someone had to dress in a way that says "I'm open for business."

Unwanted attention comes with living around other people, it's unavoidable. You can be sexually attractive and not dress like, I assume you mean, a "slut". Natural beauty is a thing that exists regardless how you dress and people who know they are physically attractive can get a confidence boost from this.

However, what one person considers attractive, another may not. There is no one-size-fits-all on attractiveness on a certain level, until you start talking about tabloids and a culture's definition of attractiveness. And before you even respond, yes we are ALL aware that it's the elite using the media to divide us and tell us what we should think is attractive. This thread is not about social engineering.

People are going to be cat called by someone who doesn't give a fuck about respect and finds them attractive, regardless of what we think.

I disagree

I think peopels perception of 'sexyness' can be affected by how someone dresses, wears their hair, how they walk, talk, their attitude and the vibes they put out...how they carry themself

In an ideal world we could all do what ever we liked and lets hope we get there one day but at the moment our world is totally fucked up and there are some very good reasons why it is so fucked up

So while we are all making our way in this fucked up world we are going to have take into accoutn the realities of it if we do not want to fall foul of the fuckedupness

 

[muir]

The woman in the video was just wearing jeans and a t-shirt and minding her own business, are you suggesting that she should be wearing something baggy and unattractive or else she's selling herself?

I'm saying new york is a fucked up place

In an ideal world each person would be able to walk down the street dressed however they like and not be accosted but this is not an ideal world it is a fucked up world and there are some very definate reasons why it is fucked up and i'm very happy to discuss those reasons with you

So until we are in that ideal world we have to be carful about how we act, dress, speak and where we do things

One thing i noticed about the strikingly attractive actress in the video is that no one else around her is dressed the same way

No one is wearing figure hugging clothes and no one has their arms on show. Everyone else is wearing a top, this would suggest the weather was amenable to top wearing and not tight t-shirts, so her clothes choice is odd when see in context

 

[Lark]

I think you have sex and gender mixed up. The former is the anatomical subject, the latter is the overarching anthropological subject.

I might have done, its been years since I studied that.

 

[sprinkles]

That's a nice image of the ideal world

Shall we get back to discussing the real world now?

Harrassment is plain wrong!

I'm not defending harrassment!

I'm way past that stage of the process!

For me i don;t have to make post after post about how wrong it is...for me it is a GIVEN that it is wrong behaviour

What i'm interested in is why it is happening

Many of my posts on various subjects are about the 'whys' of things

Behaviours can change, social mores change, attitudes change etc

So why are some guys missbehaving in this way in the street?

My opinion on that is due to the sexualisation of society

I'm not a prude and i'm not actually against sex or the naked human body.....the problem i believe is when the suggestion of sex is made but no actual sex is offered

In a sexualised society there needs to be a grounding of the energies that are stirred up otherwise those energies will find other outlets some of which might not be healthy

Another aspect of the sexualised society is the sexual objectification of people; men are being objectified now as well but most of the objectification has been of women ans women are not passive victims in that

For every image of a sexually suggestive female posted around the world there is a woman posing for the picture

Is cock teasing to sell cars or to sell music videos empowering?

I'd argue no and i'd say it is going to be sexually provocative and might stir up sexual energies

Further to this we have seen the breakdown of the nuclear family where the father would traditionally act as a role model for young males and teach them that it is not acceptable to cat call people

stir up sexual energies + have sex = great!
stir up sexual energies + no sex = bad!

1. that genie is out of the bottle now and is never going back in.
2. being a woman is enough to stir up these 'sexual energies' for a lot of people
3. if we desexualized media, they'd demand to have it back and scream about censorship and oppression

given all of these points, plus the fact that normal women wearing normal clothes will be drooled and obsessed over as 'sexual' then the logical conclusion is to move to the burqa.

The damage is permanent. Society has almost never evolved backwards. The nuclear family is gone and it isn't coming back.

 

[muir]

1. that genie is out of the bottle now and is never going back in.
2. being a woman is enough to stir up these 'sexual energies' for a lot of people
3. if we desexualized media, they'd demand to have it back and scream about censorship and oppression

given all of these points, plus the fact that normal women wearing normal clothes will be drooled and obsessed over as 'sexual' then the logical conclusion is to move to the burqa.

The damage is permanent. Society has almost never evolved backwards. The nuclear family is gone and it isn't coming back.

The sexualisation of our society is not fixed in stone

Unhealthy media portrayals opf women is not set in stone

The in your faceness of suggested sex coupled with the repression of real sex is not set in stone

Personally i would be open to the legalisation of prostitution like they have in the netherlands where it is all regulated, the women work for themselves, not a pimp and have to have licences where they are checked for sti's, where prices are regulated etc

I think that would provide a release valve for society whislt protecting sex workers and ending human trafficking

I'd legalise hash cafes while i'm at it

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

It's not set in stone, it is set in habit and tradition which is often much harder than stone.

 

[Kanamori]

It's not what I would call tasteful, but there's a difference between one, a slew of people doing it, and harassing someone when it's been made clear that it's very unwanted... I don't, generally, mind being hit on but when somebody makes a thing out of it when I've been clear, it's very different, the same is true for other people, especially for the people I care about and know (what they think about it). If you can't take a hint and you're in your 20's or more, you should get a clue, a little bit of tat-for-tat.

I think, often, they mean it to be a form of positive attention, but the empathy fails, and it turns into lecherousness.

I work with a dude who carries a .50 cal and 5 knives, and I see ***hats hit on my cousin in crude and less crude ways often, and I can't help but think if I were around as such, obviously one not to mess with lightly, it probably wouldn't happen as often... there's something there, not that she can't take care of herself, because she makes herself clear when it happens, and if it came to it she could and would defend herself, but they don't always stop, and get defensive as if nothing happened... and she dresses much less provocatively than others.

 

[La Sagna]

I'm saying new york is a fucked up place

In an ideal world each person would be able to walk down the street dressed however they like and not be accosted but this is not an ideal world it is a fucked up world and there are some very definate reasons why it is fucked up and i'm very happy to discuss those reasons with you

So until we are in that ideal world we have to be carful about how we act, dress, speak and where we do things

One thing i noticed about the strikingly attractive actress in the video is that no one else around her is dressed the same way

No one is wearing figure hugging clothes and no one has their arms on show. Everyone else is wearing a top, this would suggest the weather was amenable to top wearing and not tight t-shirts, so her clothes choice is odd when see in context

I don't see anything wrong with what she is wearing or how she is acting. According to you she is being provocative because she is attractive.

I am 'curvy' and if I wear anything that is fashionable or not granny-like or sac-like you will see my curves, that is just how my body is shaped and I am not ashamed of it or think I should hide it away under a sac. Luckily I don't have to walk in areas like the one in the video so I don't have to deal with the cat-calling but I get noticed and there's nothing I can do about that. Because I happen to be born with the genes to give me a certain type of shape doesn't mean that I am teasing men because I'm walking around in the world and I am not interested in their opinions about my body. I should be allowed to wear jeans and a t-shirt as much as you or anybody else is without being harassed about it. I even wear tight exercise wear when I got to the gym and I do get attention, although all the men are classy enough not to say anything. I guess according to you I should wear baggy sweats instead of comfortable exercise wear or otherwise I'm teasing all the men in the gym. Do you not see what's wrong with that? I don't give a crap what other people have seen in the media that does not give you the right to tell me what I am 'allowed' to wear.

 

[sprinkles]

It's not what I would call tasteful, but there's a difference between one, a slew of people doing it, and harassing someone when it's been made clear that it's very unwanted... I don't, generally, mind being hit on but when somebody makes a thing out of it when I've been clear, it's very different, the same is true for other people, especially for the people I care about and know (what they think about it). If you can't take a hint and you're in your 20's or more, you should get a clue, a little bit of tat-for-tat.

I think, often, they mean it to be a form of positive attention, but the empathy fails, and it turns into lecherousness.

I work with a dude who carries a .50 cal and 5 knives, and I see ***hats hit on my cousin in crude and less crude ways often, and I can't help but think if I were around as such, obviously one not to mess with lightly, it probably wouldn't happen as often... there's something there, not that she can't take care of herself, because she makes herself clear when it happens, and if it came to it she could and would defend herself, but they don't always stop, and get defensive as if nothing happened... and she dresses much less provocatively than others.

Anything can be made out to be positive or well intentioned. I don't think it is, though.

I mean you could douse somebody in gasoline and set them on fire and say you're doing them a favor by making sure they won't get body lice.